Have modern BMWs become too capable for their own good?

[Steinnn]

Modern BMWs are undeniably impressive. They’re faster, more refined, and more capable than ever. Advances in chassis design, suspension, tires, and electronics mean you can drive very quickly with a high margin of safety and confidence.

But sometimes I wonder if that capability changes the nature of the driving experience.

With so much happening in the background — stability systems, torque vectoring, adaptive dampers, steering assist — it can feel like the car is always interpreting the road for you. Even with systems turned off, the car still feels engineered around software-managed behavior rather than purely mechanical feedback.

Older BMWs weren’t better in an objective sense, but they often felt more transparent. You had a clearer sense of grip, weight transfer, and consequence. Modern cars let you operate closer to the limit more easily, which is impressive, but also different.

Is this progress enhancing the joy of driving, or subtly redefining it? Curious where others land on this as BMW continues to evolve.

[Phillies8008]

We've definitely given up some of that "rawness" for safety, but it's kind of hard to argue that it isn't ultimately worth it. I have trouble believing that someone burying their kid back in the 70s after dying in a car wreck wouldn't trade driving-feel for safer vehicles.

In that same vein, everyone complains about vehicle weight but no one wants to hear road and wind noise. Just like safety systems, sound dampening doesn't come without a cost.

[Steinnn]

Originally Posted by Phillies8008

We've definitely given up some of that "rawness" for safety, but it's kind of hard to argue that it isn't ultimately worth it. I have trouble believing that someone burying their kid back in the 70s after dying in a car wreck wouldn't trade driving-feel for safer vehicles.

In that same vein, everyone complains about vehicle weight but no one wants to hear road and wind noise. Just like safety systems, sound dampening doesn't come without a cost.

That’s a fair point. Safety and refinement are real gains, and it’s hard to argue against them. I think the tension is more about choi. Rawness and feedback used to be something you could opt into, whereas now even performance cars start from a very insulated baseline. Weight, sound deadening, and tech all make sense individually, but together they shift what a “driver’s car” feels like. It’s not necessarily worse, just a different balance between involvement and capability than it used to be.

[Elderado82]

For me, the progress we’ve seen in modern cars genuinely makes driving better — and safer — for the people I care about. That applies to everything from a full‑on M car to something as simple as an X1. Even GT3 drivers will tell you the same thing: today’s cars are heavier, packed with tech, and far more capable than the ones that came before. Safety adds weight, tech adds complexity, and the more a car can do, the more it starts to push past what our senses can fully process.

I don’t think progress has taken away the joy of driving; it’s just changed what that joy feels like. Today’s joy comes from precision and confidence. Yesterday’s joy came from raw feedback and connection. I appreciate both for what they are. It’s easy to be nostalgic, but we sometimes forget what it took to get to where we are today.

I’m in the same boat as Phillies8008 on this. I’m much happier knowing my family and I are safer in modern cars, and I can drive with a level of confidence that simply wasn’t possible decades ago.

[Steinnn]

Originally Posted by Elderado82

For me, the progress we’ve seen in modern cars genuinely makes driving better — and safer — for the people I care about. That applies to everything from a full‑on M car to something as simple as an X1. Even GT3 drivers will tell you the same thing: today’s cars are heavier, packed with tech, and far more capable than the ones that came before. Safety adds weight, tech adds complexity, and the more a car can do, the more it starts to push past what our senses can fully process.

I don’t think progress has taken away the joy of driving; it’s just changed what that joy feels like. Today’s joy comes from precision and confidence. Yesterday’s joy came from raw feedback and connection. I appreciate both for what they are. It’s easy to be nostalgic, but we sometimes forget what it took to get to where we are today.

I’m in the same boat as Phillies8008 on this. I’m much happier knowing my family and I are safer in modern cars, and I can drive with a level of confidence that simply wasn’t possible decades ago.

Well said. I agree that modern cars deliver a different kind of joy, more precision, confidence, and safety, and that absolutely matters, especially when family is part of the equation. I don’t think progress has removed the joy of driving either, just reshaped it.

For me, the interesting part is how that shift affects expectations. We now associate driver enjoyment with capability and confidence rather than feedback and vulnerability. Neither is wrong, but it does mean that what we value in a car has evolved alongside the technology. Maybe the challenge for manufacturers is finding ways to preserve that sense of connection within the realities of modern safety and complexity.

[dcstep]

All that's been said is true, but I'm not so sure that you can make a car that does 0-60 in 3-seconds "safe" for an 18-YO. At those speeds, it's very easy to overcome the safety features to wrap it around a tree, or hit a soccer mom at 90-mph as she's pulling into traffic.

In 1967, a 911S did 0-60 in 7.1-seconds!!!! That was a "fast" car for its day.

These days, when you overcome all the nannies and lose it, you're going way, way faster than in the "old days."

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by Steinnn

Even with systems turned off, the car still feels engineered around software-managed behavior rather than purely mechanical feedback.

What does that even mean?
With DSC/TC off, your car is as raw today as it was 30 years ago. Only with better suspension geometry, better safety, better tires. At the expense of weight.

As long as I can turn DSC/TC off when I feel like it, it's all good.

No way would I want a trailing throttle oversteering E30s that did 0-60 in 7+ seconds. Even if it had "raw feeling". Those things were originally priced at $25-30K in late 1980s, which is ~$75K in today's dollars. Would anyone actually pay $75K for that clunker if it was offered for sale today?

Not me.
Moving on.

a

[freakystyly]

Originally Posted by afadeev

Would anyone actually pay $75K for that clunker if it was offered for sale today?

I know it's rhetorical but yes some people absolutely would. Of course it would never happen with all the red tape involved.

That's kind of the whole point in the "classic car" genre thing.

[JABCAT]

Is the car fast? ✅
Does it handle great? ✅
Is it comfortable? ✅
Is it safe? ✅
Does it provide good value for the $? ✅
Can I modify it? ✅
Can I work on it myself? ✅
Do I turn around & look at it when I walk away? ✅
Do I enjoy driving it? ✅

I couldn't care less about "rawness" or even the weight if I'm being honest.

I have a ~700hp supercharged 2011 Carbon Edition Z06 with the Z07 track package. That car is light weight (relatively) at ~3100 lbs, set up for track (raw), no big screen. No 10 levels of traction/stability control, manual transmission, loud, etc.

I drove it 245 mi last year & less than 500 the year before. It's an awesome machine, it's Inferno Orange Metallic (my fav color), and the car I wanted since the day it was announced in 2010. I prefer driving my 2022 & 2023 M vehicles on a regular basis.

[Phillies8008]

Originally Posted by dcstep

All that's been said is true, but I'm not so sure that you can make a car that does 0-60 in 3-seconds "safe" for an 18-YO. At those speeds, it's very easy to overcome the safety features to wrap it around a tree, or hit a soccer mom at 90-mph as she's pulling into traffic.

In 1967, a 911S did 0-60 in 7.1-seconds!!!! That was a "fast" car for its day.

These days, when you overcome all the nannies and lose it, you're going way, way faster than in the "old days."

100% agreed – there's absolutely no way I'd ever put a teenage driver behind the wheel of a car like that, regardless of whatever safety systems it had. Those systems are great and all, but they certainly don't make one impervious to injury or death. And like people driving 4x4s in the snow, they might just provide a false sense of security leading to being even more reckless.

If nothing else, I wouldn't let a teenager drive one of those cars is because I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, all of the incredibly stupid shit I would've done with one of them at that age. Hell, it's only by sheer luck and the grace of god that I'm here now, and that was in an 85hp '81 Accord.

[Efthreeoh]

I think I have some perspective here. Yes, too capable.

I've been driving a BMW 3-series as a daily driver since 1988. My 1989 E30 325i was the first BMW I owned but prior to that I had a lot of seat time in four different E21 320i from MY 1976 to MY 1982. Along the way I've also owned a Z3 (still have it), E46 330iC, E90 325i, and E86 3.0si Coupe (still have it). I've driven the F30 chassis a few times, a 335i in 2013, and in 2021 a 128i, both as loaners; I had the F30 for a week and 800 miles. I've also through the years test driven an E36 318Ti, an E46 328i, F30 328i sport package

I moved from the E30 into the E90, so a gap from the E36 and E46 but I did test drive both chassis at their respective introductions. What is nice is I can go back in BMW time and drive an E36 Z3 and jump 12 years into an E46-based Z4 coupe and while enjoying the E90 (when I had all three cars up until May of 2025). And when I had four cars at the same time with the E46 cabrio, I could amuse myself with jumping between all four cars in a single day to appreciate the differences and likenesses of each. Right now, the Z3 is my favorite between it and the Z4. The Z3 is old school BMW of how most of us old-timers fondly remember the brand. Today's BMWs are too much like every other manufacturer's offerings.

IMO, the F30 lost the BMW 3-series DNA. The 228i, I don't even know what the fuck that thing was; it literally tried to steer me back into traffic when I was in a left-turn lane. The G-series is offered with no manual transmission in the N. American market, sorry BMW, but that was an error on your part.

My experience with it is the E90 offered the best blend of size, weight, handling and ride; it was the modern E30, a tinge raw but with refinement. The F30 on up, nah, those cars are not a BMW 3-series. And the new Bimmers are supposed to be reliable(?), who in the hell wants that?!

[Mason Hatcher]

Originally Posted by Steinnn

Modern BMWs are undeniably impressive. They’re faster, more refined, and more capable than ever. Advances in chassis design, suspension, tires, and electronics mean you can drive very quickly with a high margin of safety and confidence.

But sometimes I wonder if that capability changes the nature of the driving experience.

With so much happening in the background — stability systems, torque vectoring, adaptive dampers, steering assist — it can feel like the car is always interpreting the road for you. Even with systems turned off, the car still feels engineered around software-managed behavior rather than purely mechanical feedback.

Older BMWs weren’t better in an objective sense, but they often felt more transparent. You had a clearer sense of grip, weight transfer, and consequence. Modern cars let you operate closer to the limit more easily, which is impressive, but also different.

Is this progress enhancing the joy of driving, or subtly redefining it? Curious where others land on this as BMW continues to evolve.

In 2021 I attended the Performance Center. When pushed, these cars come alive. I'm not really sure what you are getting at with your post, but to your thread title, a huge NO, from me

[Janjohn]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

Is the car fast? ✅
Does it handle great? ✅
Is it comfortable? ✅
Is it safe? ✅
Does it provide good value for the $? ✅
Can I modify it? ✅
Can I work on it myself? ✅
Do I turn around & look at it when I walk away? ✅
Do I enjoy driving it? ✅

I couldn't care less about "rawness" or even the weight if I'm being honest.

I have a ~700hp supercharged 2011 Carbon Edition Z06 with the Z07 track package. That car is light weight (relatively) at ~3100 lbs, set up for track (raw), no big screen. No 10 levels of traction/stability control, manual transmission, loud, etc.

I drove it 245 mi last year & less than 500 the year before. It's an awesome machine, it's Inferno Orange Metallic (my fav color), and the car I wanted since the day it was announced in 2010. I prefer driving my 2022 & 2023 M vehicles on a regular basis.

Very much agreed. We have a Dodge Challenger Hellcat that sports 719 hp and was a last call for the Hellcat model in 2023. It exceeds my husband’s racing or track skills but since he’s 70, he doesn’t drive it like he stole it.

We bought the new X3M50 at my behest because I wanted the 3 series driving experience, the M50 power and speed, and finally all the enhanced nav and parking features because I’m 70 and my reflexes and night vision aren’t what they used to be.

I know we’re not the majority anymore but my dream would be that this X3 could occasionally drive me home from appointments or to and from after dark.

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by afadeev

...
No way would I want a trailing throttle oversteering...

a

Actually, trailing throttle oversteer is your friend, if you know how and when to use it. Really!

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by Janjohn

Very much agreed. We have a Dodge Challenger Hellcat that sports 719 hp and was a last call for the Hellcat model in 2023. It exceeds my husband’s racing or track skills but since he’s 70, he doesn’t drive it like he stole it.

We bought the new X3M50 at my behest because I wanted the 3 series driving experience, the M50 power and speed, and finally all the enhanced nav and parking features because I’m 70 and my reflexes and night vision aren’t what they used to be.

I know we’re not the majority anymore but my dream would be that this X3 could occasionally drive me home from appointments or to and from after dark.

Jan, young chick, Tanzanite Metallic, 719-hp, M50...you sound like a perfect woman! Tell John to floor it!

[Janjohn]

Originally Posted by dcstep

Jan, young chick, Tanzanite Metallic, 719-hp, M50...you sound like a perfect woman! Tell John to floor it!

Thanks. For the Challenger, he can floor it at the drag strip using the red key fob. The M50 is fun for the highway because we can actually pass and go fast on the interstate while getting 27mpg.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

I know it's rhetorical but yes some people absolutely would.
That's kind of the whole point in the "classic car" genre thing.

Yeah, but that's a nostalgia play.
Many still want the cars we could not afford back in high-school days, or had hanging as posters on the wall. Some go back and realize that dream now, that they can.

My first BMW was an E30. It was fun and engaging for what it was, when I had it. But it couldn't hold a candle next to an E36, which was inferior to an E46, E90, F80, etc. I still have a warm feeling when I see a clean E30 on the road, but there is no way I would want to have my teenagers drive one of those. Or change an oil filter by threading my hand through hot exhaust manifold. No thank you, no way.

Originally Posted by dcstep

All that's been said is true, but I'm not so sure that you can make a car that does 0-60 in 3-seconds "safe" for an 18-YO. At those speeds, it's very easy to overcome the safety features to wrap it around a tree, or hit a soccer mom at 90-mph as she's pulling into traffic.

Speaking for myself, I did not <learn> to drive until I got an E36 M3. You could do all sorts of stupid stuff in an E30, and it simply did not have the torque or HP to make you pay for frivolous throttle inputs. Throttle discipline and learning to recognize how the car is telling you it is about to exceed its limits of adhesion is critical for safety. E30s, with their snap oversteers, where terrible at all of the above.

Consequently, I've been teaching my teens how to drive in an F80 M3. Starting with throttle control, as they never ever need to go WOT, outside of track or an emergency situation. But when they do, they now know how the car feels when its struggling for traction, and when and how to back off.
If / when they see DSC light flickering - they know they did something wrong. Recognize, discuss, understand, learn, repeat.

a

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by afadeev

What does that even mean?
With DSC/TC off, your car is as raw today as it was 30 years ago. Only with better suspension geometry, better safety, better tires. At the expense of weight.

As long as I can turn DSC/TC off when I feel like it, it's all good.

A car at its base is a mechanical system. Tuning a mechanical system is not easy, and manufacturers used to spend a lot of time and money doing that. As more and more active control is added to cars, the tedious process of tweaking control arm length, angle or pick up point location is replaced by tweaking parameters in the software. This means that the software is compensating for limitations of the hardware. Turn off the software, and the deficiencies in the hardware are exposed.

Easy example is electronic power steering - so easy to change the weight of the steering or how it reacts to driver inputs and road conditions, that nobody bothers to design good frontend geometry. Jalopnik has a great article about how BMW fell for the allure of software-heavy tuning with the F30 3-series, and how they went back to the basics of mechanical tuning with the G20. The linked Car and Driver article is also a very interesting read.

This Ars article quotes Richard Parry-Jones from Ford about how regular drivers prefer cars with good steering feedback, even though they can't explain their preference and they don't ask for better steering as consumers. They just like driving a car with good steering.

Yet almost all new cars have completely numb steering, insulate from noise so much that they need to pump fake engine sound from the speakers, and have traction and stability control that make you completely unaware when the car is nearing the limits of grip.

To the point of the thread, modern cars are too objectively good, and they sacrificed a lot of subjective goodness in the process. Sadly driving enthusiasts are just too small of a market to keep investing in.

[dcstep]

It seems like BMW used to go all out to make M-cars that felt "special" and communicated with the driver. Why can't they at least go back to a hydraulic steering rack that feels much like an E92 M3? Yes, they'd have to adjust for new weights and geometries, but that's why we call them engineers.

This one throwback would make me incredibly happy. Everyday that I drive my 2022 M4, I wish for that single aspect of my 2009 M3. It seems so doable for a maker famous for Driving Machines.

Their would be no downside for BMW's "Luxury Market." They can put the dead steering in every other model, just not in M-series.

[Janjohn]

Originally Posted by dcstep

It seems like BMW used to go all out to make M-cars that felt "special" and communicated with the driver. Why can't they at least go back to a hydraulic steering rack that feels much like an E92 M3? Yes, they'd have to adjust for new weights and geometries, but that's why we call them engineers.

This one throwback would make me incredibly happy. Everyday that I drive my 2022 M4, I wish for that single aspect of my 2009 M3. It seems so doable for a maker famous for Driving Machines.

Their would be no downside for BMW's "Luxury Market." They can put the dead steering in every other model, just not in M-series.

I guess the good news here is any of the older M3 are much more reasonably priced than used Porsche 911s, so it might make a nice 2nd car.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by dcstep

Why can't they at least go back to a hydraulic steering rack

Sadly the only holdouts on hydraulic steering are McLaren and Lotus, and even those would need to bite the bullet with mandated lane keep systems after July of 2027 in Europe.

But frankly after driving good electric steering racks (981 Cayman GT4 and 982 Boxster GTS4.0, Subaru BRZ) I think manufacturers just need to be bothered to have steering feel, not that hydraulic is the only way to achieve that.

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by Janjohn

I guess the good news here is any of the older M3 are much more reasonably priced than used Porsche 911s, so it might make a nice 2nd car.

Maintenance of my 2009 E92 M3 finally drove me to sell it. It was at 176,000 miles. I would only recommend it to a "collector" that knows its issues and finds a low mileage one.