Horner in trouble at Red Bull

[Sneaky Pete]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Kimi still made him his b1tch

I get it...you think that by making less of Hamiltons abilities and achievements you make Verstappen look better.
Its OK its what fandom is often about.

For me if Verstappen hadn't been so mediocre against his mid-field team mate Daniel Ricciardo I might have a better opinion of his driving. The endless crashes MV had early days was the cause of some mirth in pre race interviews with journalists.
But don't get me wrong, Verstappen is a good driver...even when you have a car so obviously faster than the rest of the field, you still have to win with it.
But the reality is that if Perez was the lead driver with a team mate of obviously lessor ability, he would have won world championships in that car as well....half the field would have in the same situation.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

I get it...you think that by making less of Hamiltons abilities and achievements you make Verstappen look better.
Its OK its what fandom is often about.

Not really, I'm just a Kimi fan who likes to bang on Hammy (Long story).

I do think VER is better than Hammy but not by much. I've never said Hammy isn't a great driver.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

For me if Verstappen hadn't been so mediocre against his mid-field team mate Daniel Ricciardo I might have a better opinion of his driving. The endless crashes MV had early days was the cause of some mirth in pre race interviews with journalists.
But don't get me wrong, Verstappen is a good driver...even when you have a car so obviously faster than the rest of the field, you still have to win with it.
But the reality is that if Perez was the lead driver with a team mate of obviously lessor ability, he would have won world championships in that car as well....half the field would have in the same situation.

???

The video below made by Formula 1 Management (not by Red Bull Racing) was posted in December 2022. Feel free to explain why their analysis is clearly flawed.

Ever since that video, that "so mediocre" or "good" driver has won 21 out of 24 F1 races (2023-2024). Like everyone in every job, he also had a learning curve. We are at such an exceptional stage that Verstappen not getting a podium in 2024, will be big news.

Not saying that you should root for the chap or that you should like him, but don't let your adverse feelings about him substantially cloud your mind about the undeniable reality of his talent, racing skills and achievements in F1. Already during his karting days, competing in several championships at the same time, he annihilated the competition time and time again. Sure, on track he's as tough as nails, taking no prisoners, but so were most of his illustrious WDC predecessors.

Formula 1 Management - "What Makes Max Verstappen so Fast?" - Dec 9, 2022:

[Sneaky Pete]

Originally Posted by Artemis

???

Ever since that video, that "so mediocre" or "good" driver has won 21 out of 24 F1 races (2023-2024). Like everyone in every job, he also had a learning curve. We are at such an exceptional stage that Verstappen not getting a podium in 2024, will be big news.

Again...Most of the current drivers could have won championships in the Red Bull.
Same as they could have won championships in the Mercedes (as long as Hamilton wasn't the other driver).
Verstappen has learnt to be a very good driver, he just doesn't have the natural ability that sets apart the true greats.

Verstappen vrs Ricciardo

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

For me if Verstappen hadn't been so mediocre against his mid-field team mate Daniel Ricciardo I might have a better opinion of his driving.

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

Verstappen has learnt to be a very good driver, he just doesn't have the natural ability that sets apart the true greats.

What's next: 19 F1 drivers feel pity for the lack of race talent of "mediocre" Verstappen, so they let him win races as a kind human gesture of positive empowerment ?

Denying the truth doesn't change the facts.

"Max Verstappen’s Top 10 Moments Of Brilliance":

"Max Verstappen's Mesmerising Drive In The Wet | 2016 Brazilian Grand Prix":

[Marcoose]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

he just doesn't have the natural ability that sets apart the true greats.

That statement is hard to be taken seriously. And I’m not a Verstappen fan.

We’ve seen him winning from practically every spot on the grid. In all sorts of weather. Granted, RBR built and great car, and Newey tuned the car to Verstappen’s skills, and Verstappen has an ok teammate. But his numbers don’t lie. He’s an exceptional driver. (Though I waiting to see him in his late 30s in a mid-field car.)

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Marcoose

(Though I waiting to see him in his late 30s in a mid-field car.)

That's why I'd like to see Verstappen move from currently arguably the best car on the grid (RB20) to a Mercedes-AMG car (W15), to show everyone what he can squeeze out of that car and that - also out of his comfort zone - he's worth his salt.

Back in 2012 Niki Lauda convinced Hamilton to drive in 2013 for Mercedes (#5 WCC in 2012), leaving McLaren (#3 WCC in 2012). The rest is history.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

Again...Most of the current drivers could have won championships in the Red Bull.
Same as they could have won championships in the Mercedes (as long as Hamilton wasn't the other driver).
Verstappen has learnt to be a very good driver, he just doesn't have the natural ability that sets apart the true greats.

Verstappen vrs Ricciardo

That is when the car was crap, engine was crap and most likely just didn't fit VER's driving style. RIC isn't half the driver VER is or has become....That's NUTTS

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Artemis

???

The video below made by Formula 1 Management (not by Red Bull Racing) was posted in December 2022. Feel free to explain why their analysis is clearly flawed.

Ever since that video, that "so mediocre" or "good" driver has won 21 out of 24 F1 races (2023-2024). Like everyone in every job, he also had a learning curve. We are at such an exceptional stage that Verstappen not getting a podium in 2024, will be big news.

Not saying that you should root for the chap or that you should like him, but don't let your adverse feelings about him substantially cloud your mind about the undeniable reality of his talent, racing skills and achievements in F1. Already during his karting days, competing in several championships at the same time, he annihilated the competition time and time again. Sure, on track he's as tough as nails, taking no prisoners, but so were most of his illustrious WDC predecessors.

Formula 1 Management - "What Makes Max Verstappen so Fast?" - Dec 9, 2022:

We are blessed to see this legend drive !

#UnLeashTheLion

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

Again...Most of the current drivers could have won championships in the Red Bull.
Same as they could have won championships in the Mercedes (as long as Hamilton wasn't the other driver).
Verstappen has learnt to be a very good driver, he just doesn't have the natural ability that sets apart the true greats.

Verstappen vrs Ricciardo

I’m sorry but Max is more naturally gifted than Ham and by considerable margin. If ham was so naturally talented he’d have won a race in the last two years in what is the 2nd best car in F1. Even his podiums were not on merit but mistakes by those in front. His talent IMO was solely down to having so much more power than the rest of the grid beyond the other cheating MB did. Max winning races and nipping at the heels of the MB cars for years while driving a car that was the 5th fastest and down 80-100 hp is what I’d call natural talent especially considering his age and inexperience in F1. Ham is all about excuse after excuse and now that they moved his seating position back he still says he can’t feel the rear. What will be the next excuse? Max has no single dominant advantage and in fact, 2022 he had the slower car for a substantial portion of the season but still managed to outdrive everyone due to talent and race craft often giving up track position to then have to pass opponents - something few were willing to do. In fact, Max and RB not only are competing in the tightest and most competitive F1 era in history but have a distinct disadvantage in that they are capped on WT and CFD. All that being said he still destroyed everyone with a car that was not developed beyond May or June of last year. If anything that just further proves against odds Max’s driving was the differentiating factor especially considering where Per was points wise.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Popcorn is so passé.

Nowadays it's: "I just had a bowl of cocoa pops and now ready for bed".

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I’m sorry but Max is more naturally gifted than Ham and by considerable margin. If ham was so naturally talented he’d have won a race in the last two years in what is the 2nd best car in F1. Even his podiums were not on merit but mistakes by those in front. His talent IMO was solely down to having so much more power than the rest of the grid beyond the other cheating MB did. Max winning races and nipping at the heels of the MB cars for years while driving a car that was the 5th fastest and down 80-100 hp is what I’d call natural talent especially considering his age and inexperience in F1. Ham is all about excuse after excuse and now that they moved his seating position back he still says he can’t feel the rear. What will be the next excuse? Max has no single dominant advantage and in fact, 2022 he had the slower car for a substantial portion of the season but still managed to outdrive everyone due to talent and race craft often giving up track position to then have to pass opponents - something few were willing to do. In fact, Max and RB not only are competing in the tightest and most competitive F1 era in history but have a distinct disadvantage in that they are capped on WT and CFD. All that being said he still destroyed everyone with a car that was not developed beyond May or June of last year. If anything that just further proves against odds Max’s driving was the differentiating factor especially considering where Per was points wise.

Agree with most of this but believe Charlie could give Max a run for his money if not for #FerrariThings.

That said, watching Max reminds me of watching Senna back in the day. He has the "It" factor and scares virtually everyone.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Agree with most of this but believe Charlie could give Max a run for his money if not for #FerrariThings.

That said, watching Max reminds me of watching Senna back in the day. He has the "It" factor and scares virtually everyone.

Yeah . MAX the machine is born at the track .

MAX won last Saturday and Jos won Sunday a Rally in the Belgian Rally Championship .
Winning is a tradition in the Verstappen family !

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Agree with most of this but believe Charlie could give Max a run for his money if not for #FerrariThings.

That said, watching Max reminds me of watching Senna back in the day. He has the "It" factor and scares virtually everyone.

I agree that Lec is the next best on the grid after Max. Some of his shortcomings are Ferrari and a decent amount his own trying to outdrive the capabilities of the car (Miami 2023 quali). Max has hit a comfort level, and few will ever have a more tense battle to win your first especially when the most competitive opponent was using their second driver as a battering ram. After 2021, the first half of 2022 was equally as intense with Max having those issues early on but never waivered and outraced Lec/Ferrari and then dominated the 2nd half. Then 2023 came around and you saw Max take it again up a notch, by outsmarting opponents with DRS detection zones (ie Austria) and always looking to improve. 2024 so far, you see a guy super in tune and looking like he’s gotten even better in quali too which should scare everyone knowing he sacrifices quali pace for race pace. At the same time, I don’t think Max has nearly hit what he’s truly capable of. Lec I think is a few notches below Max in the things you can’t teach despite having a talent level nearly the same. I do think Max’s gen (with Lec, Rus, Nor, Alb, Sai) is one of the strongest we’ve seen in decades but those latter guys are going to have a hard time winning even races as long as Max is around. None of them have the same level of cut throat mentality Max has and it’s another part of what pushes him above.

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by Artemis

The hero we need!!!

[G30M]

slow news day huh

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I agree that Lec is the next best on the grid after Max. Some of his shortcomings are Ferrari and a decent amount his own trying to outdrive the capabilities of the car (Miami 2023 quali). Max has hit a comfort level, and few will ever have a more tense battle to win your first especially when the most competitive opponent was using their second driver as a battering ram. After 2021, the first half of 2022 was equally as intense with Max having those issues early on but never waivered and outraced Lec/Ferrari and then dominated the 2nd half. Then 2023 came around and you saw Max take it again up a notch, by outsmarting opponents with DRS detection zones (ie Austria) and always looking to improve. 2024 so far, you see a guy super in tune and looking like he’s gotten even better in quali too which should scare everyone knowing he sacrifices quali pace for race pace. At the same time, I don’t think Max has nearly hit what he’s truly capable of. Lec I think is a few notches below Max in the things you can’t teach despite having a talent level nearly the same. I do think Max’s gen (with Lec, Rus, Nor, Alb, Sai) is one of the strongest we’ve seen in decades but those latter guys are going to have a hard time winning even races as long as Max is around. None of them have the same level of cut throat mentality Max has and it’s another part of what pushes him above.

Keyword: relentless consistency.

"Our writers on Verstappen's mighty [2023] season, where he ranks amongst the greats – and who will challenge him in 2024"
F1 - Oct 12, 2023
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...34AihhpsW.html

"What makes F1’s Max Verstappen so fast? ‘An extremely rare natural talent’"
The Athletic - Feb 27, 2023
https://theathletic.com/4256443/2023...-redbull-fast/

Mexico 2022 F1 race (where he lapped the whole field except for HAM, PER, RUS, SAI and LEC):

[Sneaky Pete]

Sorry...I must have slipped into some sort of parallel universe where in his early years Verstappen didn't hardly have a race without crashing into someone or something. He even managed to crash on the way to the grid.
Don't you recall the pre race interview where he threatened to head butt the next journalist who asked him when he was going to stop crashing?

But hey if you guys want to believe he is in the same league as Senna (proper lol) then go for it.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

Sorry...I must have slipped into some sort of parallel universe where in his early years Verstappen didn't hardly have a race without crashing into someone or something. He even managed to crash on the way to the grid.
Don't you recall the pre race interview where he threatened to head butt the next journalist who asked him when he was going to stop crashing?

But hey if you guys want to believe he is in the same league as Senna (proper lol) then go for it.

Believe what you want to believe (also during the next 22 races of the season).

I rest my case.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

Sorry...I must have slipped into some sort of parallel universe where in his early years Verstappen didn't hardly have a race without crashing into someone or something. He even managed to crash on the way to the grid.
Don't you recall the pre race interview where he threatened to head butt the next journalist who asked him when he was going to stop crashing?

But hey if you guys want to believe he is in the same league as Senna (proper lol) then go for it.

Have you watched what happens at football, gridiron, ice hockey and rugby matches..

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

Sorry...I must have slipped into some sort of parallel universe where in his early years Verstappen didn't hardly have a race without crashing into someone or something. He even managed to crash on the way to the grid.
Don't you recall the pre race interview where he threatened to head butt the next journalist who asked him when he was going to stop crashing?

But hey if you guys want to believe he is in the same league as Senna (proper lol) then go for it.

#UnLeashTheLion !!!

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I’m sorry but Max is more naturally gifted than Ham and by considerable margin. If ham was so naturally talented he’d have won a race in the last two years in what is the 2nd best car in F1. Even his podiums were not on merit but mistakes by those in front. His talent IMO was solely down to having so much more power than the rest of the grid beyond the other cheating MB did. Max winning races and nipping at the heels of the MB cars for years while driving a car that was the 5th fastest and down 80-100 hp is what I’d call natural talent especially considering his age and inexperience in F1. Ham is all about excuse after excuse and now that they moved his seating position back he still says he can’t feel the rear. What will be the next excuse? Max has no single dominant advantage and in fact, 2022 he had the slower car for a substantial portion of the season but still managed to outdrive everyone due to talent and race craft often giving up track position to then have to pass opponents - something few were willing to do. In fact, Max and RB not only are competing in the tightest and most competitive F1 era in history but have a distinct disadvantage in that they are capped on WT and CFD. All that being said he still destroyed everyone with a car that was not developed beyond May or June of last year. If anything that just further proves against odds Max’s driving was the differentiating factor especially considering where Per was points wise.

It remains very subjective to compare the excellence of drivers. Also different times, different standards, different cars, etc.

But compare for example with the formidable Scottish driver Jim Clark (WDC 1963 and 1965). A life and race career cut short in a fatal F2 crash in 1968, aged 32. During the Spa 1963 race (ending in torrential rain) he finished 8 miles and almost 5 minutes clear of P2 (Bruce McLaren) (see for example here (results) and here (video - no sound)).

For NickyC: to get you a fascinating glimpse of a 'day at the races' in the early 60s featuring its rawness and perilously low safety standards for drivers, camera-men and public: 10-minute highlights - in color! - of the Spa-Francorchamps 1961 F1 race (race results here):