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      09-21-2023, 09:32 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by msej449 View Post
Waiting for a delayed home delivery, I thought that it might be interesting to profile the topic so far in terms of the main critical points being made. So here it is (numer of times mentioned):

Specifically relating to the M3 EV of this Topic
(8) This is a 1-lap wonder and an EV version isn't a credible competitive race car.
(3) EV batteries are too heavy aweight penalty for a track car
(1) Currently, no EV racer will beat an equivalent ICEV racer
(1) This isn't really in the /M design tradition
And apropos of nothing other than that this is an EV (albeit way outside the mainstream market):
(10) EVs don't have the range to be a viable long-distance option
(5) EV 2nd-hand prices are relatively poor
(5) Mercedes EVs aren't selling
(3) An EV doesn't work for me, given my circumstances
(3) Charging station network is too limited (for longer trips)
(2) Charge time is too long
(2) using the aircon/heating/heated seats kills range
(2) BMW EVs arent' selling
(1) EVs are unsuited to cold
(1) Most EV owners who replace the car buy an ICEV
(1) EVs are often unviable for rural households
A number of people on here have said they feel targetted simply because they aren't an EV zealot. But look at it from the point of view of those posting as owners of both a BMW ICEV and an EV, or solely of a BMW EV:

That second set of criticisms aren't really anything to do with the topic in question. But they follow a standard pattern of what happens when EVs crop up. Every forum I'm on has threads about EVs and every time one starts up, the same thing [...]
Itís become a political topic and therefore will rarely be discussed with objectivity and without personal bias. Thatís what happens when governments, especially one political sect within government, forces the hand of established markets that already work well.
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      09-21-2023, 10:19 AM   #156
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honestly had no idea Kendall Roy was the M CEO
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      09-21-2023, 11:54 AM   #157
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honestly had no idea Kendall Roy was the M CEO
The Disgusting Brothers made that show.
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      09-21-2023, 02:37 PM   #158
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ike the way youíve articulated concerns here. I wonder if those in US that can afford electric vehicle are even taking energy cost as their main concern. Tariffs here are same day or night but since I am from Europe and have family there energy cost here is a fraction of what it is in Europe. Mercedes EV selling slow are a fact. Sales numbers in comparison to last year or two ago are IMO not relevant at all since when pandemic was a main thing of all sales dropped and availability wasnít there so it doesnít give us clear picture of the situation. Now as far as charging points and range. Infrastructure has to be improved no question about it. Thatís because of simple fact that this is still relatively new concept in comparison to ICE cars. Range dropping significantly when very cold or hot is a fact. I think and said here many times that this tech could be future. I do not see EVs as viable replacement for regular customers in the next 5 years. Not at its current pace. IMO shortening of charge times will address major issue with usability of EVs for majority of future customers as well as charging stations to become available like regular fuel pumps. Forcing general public to purschase those from 2035 reminds me of the times that are long forgotten. And for a good reason.
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      09-21-2023, 02:44 PM   #159
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Thatís 99% of car usage.
For youÖ
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      09-22-2023, 03:27 PM   #160
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BMW M never had such a misguided person at the helm
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      09-22-2023, 07:22 PM   #161
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For youÖ
There's no point. You'll never win the argument. I road trip my M cars. I'm sure a lot of others do as well, otherwise there'd be no cool journals. Many people track them regularly. Others enjoy tuning them. A majority like the sound and feel of the engine. It doesn't matter to the folks in charge or the EV crowd. It won't until people stop buying them. Until then, they'll be able to sell them in bundles because they've mainstreamed the M badge.

Trouble is, the differences between one EV to the next are nowhere as big as they are with ICE cars, so it'll be a race to the bottom free-for-all. They may cannibalize their own series EVs first, but eventually the M variant(s) will be just another heavy, very fast soulless EV box. We just have to have faith that at some point before that they realize there are folks who still want something special. We may have to accept someone else willing to offer that and move on. If not, we'll have the resale market.

Many people see BaT's success as either a faddish result of all the Covid money floating around or a prior non-existent method to extract the most value out of hard-to-find cars. Of course it's a bit of both. But I think it's much more than that. It's a dramatic representation of the desire in the marketplace for cars that either have character and soul or represent the pinnacle of honest mechanical engineering - and in some cases, both.
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      09-22-2023, 08:09 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by BMWILUVU View Post
I'd like to see how they expect to make a 5000+lb hog break all the N-ring records. Maybe EV records only.
The Tesla plaid beat some very respectable cars and did it in around 7 1/2 minutes.
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      09-22-2023, 08:18 PM   #163
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The Tesla plaid beat some very respectable cars and did it in around 7 1/2 minutes.
At around 4800 lbs, crazy
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      09-22-2023, 11:04 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Fugly M3 View Post
There's no point. You'll never win the argument. I road trip my M cars. I'm sure a lot of others do as well, otherwise there'd be no cool journals. Many people track them regularly. Others enjoy tuning them. A majority like the sound and feel of the engine. It doesn't matter to the folks in charge or the EV crowd. It won't until people stop buying them. Until then, they'll be able to sell them in bundles because they've mainstreamed the M badge.

Trouble is, the differences between one EV to the next are nowhere as big as they are with ICE cars, so it'll be a race to the bottom free-for-all. They may cannibalize their own series EVs first, but eventually the M variant(s) will be just another heavy, very fast soulless EV box. We just have to have faith that at some point before that they realize there are folks who still want something special. We may have to accept someone else willing to offer that and move on. If not, we'll have the resale market.

Many people see BaT's success as either a faddish result of all the Covid money floating around or a prior non-existent method to extract the most value out of hard-to-find cars. Of course it's a bit of both. But I think it's much more than that. It's a dramatic representation of the desire in the marketplace for cars that either have character and soul or represent the pinnacle of honest mechanical engineering - and in some cases, both.
Itís government intervention thatís driving it. Donít buy what they say publicly. Theyíre selling cars. The only reason all these companies are sinking R&D dollars and losing money on actual production vehicles is because governments have told them their traditional ICE cars will be heavily regulated and then eventually banned. So itís a race to gain market share in a market that doesnít exist yet but governments will force into existence.

Of course we would have some EV regardless. It would be A market, regardless. Not THE market, but a segment of it. Tesla would exist and thrive no matter what. Some people want the newest tech and something different and Tesla is a tech company making cars. BMW, Merc, Cadillac would all likely try to have a model or two to compete there but wouldnít be transitioning their entire line of PROFITABLE vehicles.

This guy running M isnít the bad guy. Heís just trying to guide BMW into survival and ultimately thriving in an inevitable new world.

I hate this kind of large scale market manipulation by government. Especially since it doesnít actually solve any problem. It creates more than it solves.
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      09-23-2023, 12:55 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micvite View Post
It's not 20 minutes every 300 miles, a more realistic range is 20 minutes every 150 miles just fyi and that's assuming you're doing 70 mph or so... God forbid you're in a state where the limit is 80-85 and people do 95 on the regular, you're gonna get 100 miles out of a charge vs 350 out of a gas guzzling m5 doing 18 mpg. Took me 13 hours to get from NJ to niagara falls in my tesla, a drive that is normally done in my bmw in 5-6 (early morning no traffic, pushing the car a bit one fill up) stopped 7 times to charge cruising at 85 in the tesla and leaving home with like 60% battery since I had to use the car earlier in the day and had depleted a full charge just a few hours before the trip (and I have 240v charging at home, 11kw/h) my tesla was a 2019 model s performance raven mode, 100 kwh battery pack with 92 usable (because when they advertise your battery packs they don't tell you you actually don't get the whole thing because if you were to actually deplete it to 0 it probably wouldn't ever charge up anymore so they leave a decent chunk as a reserve) and yeah... missed an exit for charging due to road work rerouting the exit and navigation not knowing about it and drove for 10 miles at 35 mph with no heat in the middle of winter freezing my ass off to make it to the jet charger (literally hit 0% and drove 5 more miles shitting my pants that I'd be stuck in the cold for hours waiting for a tow truck at 5 am because tesla wants you to get to the charger with 10% to make use of the highest charging speeds up to 60% then drive for another 30 minutes and stop for [...]
Somebodyís got a axe to grind
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      09-24-2023, 03:12 AM   #166
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People arenít buying EVs because the government is telling the manufacturers to make them. This isnít communist USSR with a Politbureau dictating that you can only buy a Brabant. People choose their car on the basis of a wide range of criteria, including lifetime cost but also styling, handling, sound etc. Increasingly, the decision ends up with an EV, is all.

Back in the 1960s-70s Detroit focused on big V6/V8 barges and encouraged everyone to take a similar sceptical view of small-engined but more efficient German and Japanese cars. They ran the US motor industry into bankrupcy. It then needed socialist levels of taxpayer investment and tax breaks to get back on its feet. This is a repeat, but this time with Chinese and European EVs. Countries can leave the market to do its thing, or act against such foreign competition, which in the end will need similar measures. Thatís the logic of government intervention.

Itís the age-old debate of whether itís better for a government to act now to avoid a potential catastrophe or wait until it hits and take more targeted and probably more cost-effective measures, or perhaps decide not to act at all.
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      09-24-2023, 07:13 AM   #167
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People here are mainly buying EVs because gas prices are out of control. And the gas prices are out of control because of taxes. The dollar is as strong as ever, and a barrel of oil is $40 lower than it was 10 years ago. $80 v $120. What changed? Taxes.
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      09-24-2023, 12:32 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82 View Post
People here are mainly buying EVs because gas prices are out of control. And the gas prices are out of control because of taxes. The dollar is as strong as ever, and a barrel of oil is $40 lower than it was 10 years ago. $80 v $120. What changed? Taxes.
That's fair...but I don't think it's fair everywhere. If you need to rely on the charging network and you're out west, specifically in California, charging appears to be quite expensive. I've seen multiple videos/reels of people that are spending $60-80 to drive from LA to San Francisco in a model 3. Roughly 380-400 miles. A model 3 gets 125-ish MPGe HWY as they call it. So, it's effectively using the equivalent of 3 gallons of gas to go that distance, meaning the cost is approximately $20-27 per gallon, if you look at it that way.

Take a 330i as a comparison, a straight gas one, not a 330e. 34 MPG HWY, means about 11.5 gallons to do the journey. Premium is about $6 per gallon. Puts you right in the middle of that price range. I see the EV charging only going up as the demand on the charge network will outpace supply given the sales of EVs. If you charge at home, no big deal. If you have to rely on the charge network, could be a nightmare.
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      09-24-2023, 04:35 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msej449 View Post
People arenít buying EVs because the government is telling the manufacturers to make them. This isnít communist USSR with a Politbureau dictating that you can only buy a Brabant. People choose their car on the basis of a wide range of criteria, including lifetime cost but also styling, handling, sound etc. Increasingly, the decision ends up with an EV, is all.

Back in the 1960s-70s Detroit focused on big V6/V8 barges and encouraged everyone to take a similar sceptical view of small-engined but more efficient German and Japanese cars. They ran the US motor industry into bankrupcy. It then needed socialist levels of taxpayer investment and tax breaks to get back on its feet. This is a repeat, but this time with Chinese and European EVs. Countries can leave the market to do its thing, or act against such foreign competition, which in the end will need similar measures. Thatís the logic of government intervention.

Itís the age-old debate of whether itís better for a government to act now to avoid a potential catastrophe or wait until it hits and take more targeted and probably more cost-effective measures, or perhaps decide not to act at all.
I donít know who youíre debating but it seems to counter some stuff Iíve said. And Iíve also said there would be an EV market without government intervention. Tesla would have created it even if no one else did. I donít think anyone has a problem with their existence as a product and natural market. Itís the forced transition that is dumb and inefficient. EV sales are there but theyíre far from dominant.
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      09-26-2023, 11:24 AM   #170
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Van Meel can try all he wants to ditch the manual (suspect this is more of AG's logistics/bean counters' intentions) , but the case for it will always be there as long as we continue to purchase them at double digit %.
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      09-26-2023, 03:32 PM   #171
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@NGT2 What Ďforced transitioní ? That is what I donít get - this view that somehow, someone is forcing you to buy an EV. No one is doing that, are they?

I get that you might think that your tax dollars shouldnít be spent on government investment in, say, accelerating the installation of EV charging infrastructure. When you could leave it to Tesla and non-Tesla to make their respective investments and see who dominates, like Betamax and VHS.

But unless I misunderstand the comments, which is always possible, there seem to be a lot of people who intrinsically feel that the manufacture and sale of EVs is also being underwritten by government as well. For example in investments and tax breaks for home-grown battery manufacture. The view being that this should succeed or fail within a free market. If so, then Iíd just reiterate that other than Tesla, the US seems to be chronically behind China and Europe in the broader electricity/EV market and is in danger of falling so far behind that it can never catch up and never become self-sufficient. Not unless government helps it to.

Conversely, I can appreciate the benefit of a purist free market, laissez-faire philosophy which just lets things run without interference to a Ďnaturalí conclusion. No government interventions needed. Much like General Motors did before they went bankrupt. Thing is, they then turned Ďround and took massive Federal financing to get back into the market and continue as a viable but restructured and reorganised corporation. You might argue that government intervention would have been more cost-effective sooner, rather than later. But thatís speculation, of course.
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      09-26-2023, 04:21 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82 View Post
People here are mainly buying EVs because gas prices are out of control. And the gas prices are out of control because of taxes. The dollar is as strong as ever, and a barrel of oil is $40 lower than it was 10 years ago. $80 v $120. What changed? Taxes.
Crude oil is not gasoline. Refinery capacity is the issue.
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      09-26-2023, 04:35 PM   #173
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@NGT2 What Ďforced transitioní ? That is what I donít get - this view that somehow, someone is forcing you to buy an EV. No one is doing that, are they?

I get that you might think that your tax dollars shouldnít be spent on government investment in, say, accelerating the installation of EV charging infrastructure. When you could leave it to Tesla and non-Tesla to make their respective investments and see who dominates, like Betamax and VHS.

But unless I misunderstand the comments, which is always possible, there seem to be a lot of people who intrinsically feel that the manufacture and sale of EVs is also being underwritten by government as well. For example in investments and tax breaks for home-grown battery manufacture. The view being that this should succeed or fail within a free market. If so, then Iíd just reiterate that other than Tesla, the US seems to be chronically behind China and Europe in the broader electricity/EV market and is in danger of falling so far behind that it can never catch up and never become self-sufficient. Not unless government helps it to.

Conversely, I can appreciate the benefit of a purist free market, laissez-faire philosophy which just lets things run without interference to a Ďnaturalí conclusion. No government interventions needed. Much like General Motors did before they went bankrupt. Thing is, they then turned Ďround and took massive Federal financing to get back into the market and continue as a viable but restructured and reorganised corporation. You might argue that government intervention would have been [...]
When regulators across the developed world are instituting mandates for when gasoline powered cars canít be sold or make the standards such that gasoline cars cannot meet them, that is a forced transition. Subsidy isnít the only way to change a market. Mandated regulation works, also. I canít imagine why this is so baffling to you.

I continue to say both markets have a place. Iím not even criticizing EVís. EV supporters are equally as sensitive as ICE purists.

I donít have any problem with government investment in infrastructure of any kind that benefits the citizens. Charging infrastructure certainly checks that box. No problem.

And again, it would be one thing if it solved a problem. But it doesnít. Thatís my issue with the regulation. Itís unjustified.
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      09-26-2023, 04:42 PM   #174
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Crude oil is not gasoline. Refinery capacity is the issue.
Got it, thanks. I will say taxes did increase by as much as $0.60/gallon in California and a lesser amount in other states since 2010.
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      09-26-2023, 06:24 PM   #175
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Got it, thanks. I will say taxes did increase by as much as $0.60/gallon in California and a lesser amount in other states since 2010.
No incentive to invest in refinery capacity when the federal government has stated they plan to end your business and are actively creating incentive to reduce gasoline powere vehicles.
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      09-27-2023, 05:46 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82 View Post
People here are mainly buying EVs because gas prices are out of control. And the gas prices are out of control because of taxes. The dollar is as strong as ever, and a barrel of oil is $40 lower than it was 10 years ago. $80 v $120. What changed? Taxes.
Georgia tax on gasoline is up 10 cents over the last 10 years? Hardly something to be griping about.
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