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      09-19-2023, 11:34 AM   #23
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      09-19-2023, 11:37 AM   #24
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Well letís all bury our head in the sand thenÖ. I mean itís not like ice is melting and the planet is heating at a horrific rate.

RIP Grand kids and Ďnormalí weather.
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      09-19-2023, 11:40 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VegasG42 View Post
Only 1% of a vehicles use is NOT around town running short errands ?

For most people , who take at least 2 or 3 road trips per year, that isn't the case.

The average driver is putting about 12,000 miles on their car per year.

Let's say one road trip is 600 miles round-trip . Another is 700. And the third is 1,000 miles.

So that's 2,300 miles for road trips and vacations.

That's almost 20% of your vehicles mileage every year.

Not to mention , the amount of people who travel for work . And retired people who like to travel and take road trips.

Most people don't want to have to stop every few hours and look for a charging station , and then spend another 20 to 30 minutes charging your vehicle.
Exactly.
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      09-19-2023, 11:45 AM   #26
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Track use seems to be the last thing people will do with EVs. Long distance is still way better with ICE cars. I have two kids, 7 & 8 and bettwen the multiple snack and bathrooms breaks, I just can't even imagine having a full EV right now. 4 road trips last years and they would all have been hell with an EV.
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      09-19-2023, 11:49 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VegasG42 View Post
Most people don't want to have to stop every few hours and look for a charging station , and then spend another 20 to 30 minutes charging your vehicle.
That's why most countries are accelerating the deployement of charging stations and why car manufacturers are making great strides to make their cars faster to charge.

For those of you that really, really can't take a 20 minutes break every 300 miles on a road trip, options are coming.
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      09-19-2023, 11:49 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcoose View Post
So if battery longevity is fixed, you quit bitching once for all, right ?

You're easy to please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafichicago View Post
Right. Love it. Than recharge after one lap cause it will not make another. Thank you but thank you.
Well, Tesla model 3 performance is do 0-60 in around 3 seconds and battery lasts about 300 miles. I think Nurburgring lap is less than 300 miles.
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      09-19-2023, 11:52 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWILUVU View Post
Straight-line its great but sux in quick maneuvering and fast turns. Overall it gets boring quickly. They can't rewrite physics. They need to make batteries much lighter in weight.
It's gonna be easy to break the so called record... look at the plaid, 7:25 vs 7:18 on the m4 csl (which was 7:20 until just recently) a heavy ev can still match most performance cars on a track like that. Take it to the GP track and you won't have brakes after the first few laps (heck I lost brakes after 2 in a non ccb m5 flying down the straight at 140 mph and realizing I had to pray turning the car 90 degrees was going to be enough to slow it down and it barely was) simply because it's a track that doesn't have high speed corners, they're all technical turns with fairly low entry speeds, brief acceleration back up to sometimes triple digits and back down to low doubles almost instantly which is taxing on both tires and brakes. But the nordshleife? Never gonna be an issue, there's like 2 slow turns, everything else is high speed 130 mph+ corners and as long as you have grip which Ding Ding Ding more weight = more grip on tires (think downforce) you're going to get fantastic times no matter what as long as the power is consistent over a large range of the battery and cooling can be properly implemented (I know for a fact the plaid cut power during its runs due to overheating). But if you think about it realistically you keep an ICE race car light for acceleration purposes then add globs of weight at speed for turning so if you can have a 6k lbs car that can accelerate the same way, then add even MORE weight at speed the grip will be astronomical for high speed turns, not so much slow speed technical turns like a chicane where weight transfer now becomes an issue or under heavy braking. Plus ev has low center of gravity meaning it doesn't pose a rollover risk at high Gs. You can compare the m4 csls 1.1g to the plaids 1.08 on the skidpad, and the plaid is only with pilot sport 4s vs the csls cup 2s... so... you see my point? Same cornering capability even at lower speeds.
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      09-19-2023, 11:56 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Rafichicago View Post
Electric Mercedes are sitting at my wifeís dealership lot as well. No one wants them. Whoever wanted one already purchased it. They will be giving them away at one point.
They are giving them away. Canít get rid of them. Check out leasehackr forum. Most of the deals are on EVs and between discounts and incentives take $30,000+ off the MSRP. $120,000 cars leasing for less than $800 a month
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      09-19-2023, 12:05 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Deho View Post
That's why most countries are accelerating the deployement of charging stations and why car manufacturers are making great strides to make their cars faster to charge.

For those of you that really, really can't take a 20 minutes break every 300 miles on a road trip, options are coming.
It's not 20 minutes every 300 miles, a more realistic range is 20 minutes every 150 miles just fyi and that's assuming you're doing 70 mph or so... God forbid you're in a state where the limit is 80-85 and people do 95 on the regular, you're gonna get 100 miles out of a charge vs 350 out of a gas guzzling m5 doing 18 mpg. Took me 13 hours to get from NJ to niagara falls in my tesla, a drive that is normally done in my bmw in 5-6 (early morning no traffic, pushing the car a bit one fill up) stopped 7 times to charge cruising at 85 in the tesla and leaving home with like 60% battery since I had to use the car earlier in the day and had depleted a full charge just a few hours before the trip (and I have 240v charging at home, 11kw/h) my tesla was a 2019 model s performance raven mode, 100 kwh battery pack with 92 usable (because when they advertise your battery packs they don't tell you you actually don't get the whole thing because if you were to actually deplete it to 0 it probably wouldn't ever charge up anymore so they leave a decent chunk as a reserve) and yeah... missed an exit for charging due to road work rerouting the exit and navigation not knowing about it and drove for 10 miles at 35 mph with no heat in the middle of winter freezing my ass off to make it to the jet charger (literally hit 0% and drove 5 more miles shitting my pants that I'd be stuck in the cold for hours waiting for a tow truck at 5 am because tesla wants you to get to the charger with 10% to make use of the highest charging speeds up to 60% then drive for another 30 minutes and stop for another 20 to charge (usually at a mall or restaurant or you know any business that's closed throughout the night unless you get lucky with like a wawa charger on the east coast) so God forbid you need to actually use the bathroom or get a drink or something, you then have to stop at a rest stop or gas station on top of your charging stop and that's gonna add another 20 minutes to the trip. Everyone says oh go get coffee walk around stretch your legs. Idk about you guys but if I'm going on a trip I wanna just get to my fking destination, not have to stretch my legs every hundred miles. On the way back I literally depleted the battery from 100 to 0 in 80 miles driving how I normally drive my m5 and from that same exact point (rest stop in pa) those same 80 miles are about a quarter of a tank. Just face the facts, an ev is currently a commuter car assuming your round trip commute is less than 100 miles or you have charging wherever your destination is that you can leave hooked up while you work for 8 hours.
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      09-19-2023, 12:19 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghaffari46 View Post
Well, Tesla model 3 performance is do 0-60 in around 3 seconds and battery lasts about 300 miles. I think Nurburgring lap is less than 300 miles.
In track mode at those speeds the 3Perf drains battery at an alarming rate. It might make it around the ring 5-10 times depending on how hard you go if it doesnít overheat first (wild guess).

Iím glad you brought that up because it seems like BMW M continues to chase tesla. Itís aggravating because Porsche doesnít seem to care as much and continues to produce lightweight vehicles. Naturally they also have inferior EVs as well.
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      09-19-2023, 12:22 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafichicago View Post
Right. Love it. Than recharge after one lap cause it will not make another. Thank you but thank you.
We're literally already past that point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafichicago View Post
They’re crap for racing and long distance driving. That’s a fact. Oh and that’s in mild climate. Not too hot and not too cold unless new second gen dry battery packs are ready for production. Yes. I am doing my research. If you are ready to wait 20-30 min to charge battery powered car while on the trip you’re welcome if you are ready to be beta tester you are more than welcome
LOL, No, you're not doing your research. You do realize that one of the biggest EV markets in the world is Norway, right? Think it might be cold there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWILUVU View Post
Straight-line its great but sux in quick maneuvering and fast turns. Overall it gets boring quickly. They can't rewrite physics. They need to make batteries much lighter in weight.


Tell me you haven't driven a performance EV without telling me you haven't driven a performance EV. Friend of mine regularly embarasses many ICE cars at Buttonwillow and Laguna in his Taycan Turbo. The reaction of drivers after they get passed by him is "wow, I didn't know EV's could drive like that".

Quote:
Originally Posted by M2Cmtl View Post
Track use seems to be the last thing people will do with EVs. Long distance is still way better with ICE cars. I have two kids, 7 & 8 and bettwen the multiple snack and bathrooms breaks, I just can't even imagine having a full EV right now. 4 road trips last years and they would all have been hell with an EV.
Anything less than 8 hours and the two charging stops you'd have to do, if combined with eating breaks, would add negligible time to your trip. I road trip, have done longer trips in EV, and done the math. After 8 hours you start to extend your day and it gets to be cumbersome.

Last edited by Needsdecaf; 09-19-2023 at 12:29 PM..
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      09-19-2023, 12:25 PM   #34
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TBH I'd consider an EV if they had manuals.

IDK how that would work but I strongly dislike 2 pedal cars.

These are my terms lol
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      09-19-2023, 12:36 PM   #35
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Evolve people. The future isn't as scarry as you think it is.
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      09-19-2023, 12:42 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
We're literally already past that point.
I will have to disagree.
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      09-19-2023, 12:43 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micvite View Post
It's not 20 minutes every 300 miles, a more realistic range is 20 minutes every 150 miles just fyi and that's assuming you're doing 70 mph or so... God forbid you're in a state where the limit is 80-85 and people do 95 on the regular, you're gonna get 100 miles out of a charge vs 350 out of a gas guzzling m5 doing 18 mpg. Took me 13 hours to get from NJ to niagara falls in my tesla, a drive that is normally done in my bmw in 5-6 (early morning no traffic, pushing the car a bit one fill up) stopped 7 times to charge cruising at 85 in the tesla and leaving home with like 60% battery since I had to use the car earlier in the day and had depleted a full charge just a few hours before the trip (and I have 240v charging at home, 11kw/h) my tesla was a 2019 model s performance raven mode, 100 kwh battery pack with 92 usable (because when they advertise your battery packs they don't tell you you actually don't get the whole thing because if you were to actually deplete it to 0 it probably wouldn't ever charge up anymore so they leave a decent chunk as a reserve) and yeah... missed an exit for charging due to road work rerouting the exit and navigation not knowing about it and drove for 10 miles at 35 mph with no heat in the middle of winter freezing my ass off to make it to the jet charger (literally hit 0% and drove 5 more miles shitting my pants that I'd be stuck in the cold for hours waiting for a tow truck at 5 am because tesla wants you to get to the charger with 10% to make use of the highest charging speeds up to 60% then drive for another 30 minutes and stop for another 20 to charge (usually at a mall or restaurant or you know any business that's closed throughout the night unless you get lucky with like a wawa charger on the east coast) so God forbid you need to actually use the bathroom or get a drink or something, you then have to stop at a rest stop or gas station on top of your charging stop and that's gonna add another 20 minutes to the trip. Everyone says oh go get coffee walk around stretch your legs. Idk about you guys but if I'm going on a trip I wanna just get to my fking destination, not have to stretch my legs every hundred miles. On the way back I literally depleted the battery from 100 to 0 in 80 miles driving how I normally drive my m5 and from that same exact point (rest stop in pa) those same 80 miles are about a quarter of a tank. Just face the facts, an ev is currently a commuter car assuming your round trip commute is less than 100 miles or you have charging wherever your destination is that you can leave hooked up while you work for 8 hours.
I literally have no idea how you made this trip into 7 charging stops unless it was below zero and you were going like 100 MPH. According to A Better Route Planner, you should be able to do a trip from North NJ to Niagra Falls on ONE stop in good weather. So factor in 2 additional stops due to colder weather and load, how on earth did you make SEVEN?

I played with the settings, set the reference consumption at 350 Wh/mile at 65, which is high, and set the speed up to 125% of the limit and STILL it only shows two stops and a total trip time of 6.5 hours. It's only a 375 mile run. Did you have like a 50 MPH headwind?

I'm not saying you're lying....but your situation is definitely not the norm. I've done 400 plus miles in one day in freezing weather with only 2 charging stops. And that was on a Model 3 performance with only a 75 kWh battery.
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      09-19-2023, 12:44 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Rafichicago View Post
I will have to disagree.
Not sure what to say to this. Are you talking about the 'Ring specifically? Pretty sure that the recently released Ioniq N can do two full laps at 100% power. Also, it's not total charge, it's the thermal. I'm not sure if a Plaid can make two laps in a row without throttling, but you could easily do more than one lap on a charge.

If you're talking about a normal track, say from a Taycan Turbo, you can get 15-18 minutes of full lapping pace before you start to run into thermal limitation.
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      09-19-2023, 12:46 PM   #39
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Well, Tesla model 3 performance is do 0-60 in around 3 seconds and battery lasts about 300 miles. I think Nurburgring lap is less than 300 miles.
Instead of just throwing mindless comment find online what range will Tesla get on the track using all of its performance. Than come back with an answer.
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      09-19-2023, 12:48 PM   #40
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Instead of just throwing mindless comment find online what range will Tesla get on the track using all of its performance. Than come back with an answer.
Buddy of mine can do two full lapping sessions at Lime Rock Park in his Model 3 Performance, no degredation due to thermals, before he has to leave to go to the Supercharger.
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      09-19-2023, 12:52 PM   #41
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They are giving them away. Canít get rid of them. Check out leasehackr forum. Most of the deals are on EVs and between discounts and incentives take $30,000+ off the MSRP. $120,000 cars leasing for less than $800 a month
Exactly my point. I donít deny evís usefulness in some instances. They work for some and donít for others. But to think that any ev with available tech for masses is suitable for lapping Nurburgring better than ICE cars is pipe dream at least for now. Unless itís one lap only.
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      09-19-2023, 12:54 PM   #42
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Buddy of mine can do two full lapping sessions at Lime Rock Park in his Model 3 Performance, no degredation due to thermals, before he has to leave to go to the Supercharger.
Let me put it this way. Just because you can lap any track in 7 series or S class doesnít mean itís the right tool for the job.
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      09-19-2023, 12:56 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Evinrude1975 View Post
0 to 60… in 2 charges
Idk why people make this joke, like it just doesn't work. The same thing can be said for gas cars. We have technology to have high capacity batteries.
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      09-19-2023, 12:59 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafichicago View Post
As for any electric car theyíre good to drive around as daily shopping picking dropping kids to/from school driving to work and back. Theyíre crap for racing and long distance driving. Thatís a fact. Oh and thatís in mild climate. Not too hot and not too cold unless new second gen dry battery packs are ready for production. Yes. I am doing my research. If you are ready to wait 20-30 min to charge battery powered car while on the trip youíre welcome if you are ready to be beta tester you are more than welcome
Clearly you havenít done your own research well enough or youíd have heard of two words - Battery Swapping. NIO already has an infra in China and is building an infra in Europe where batteries can be swapped in 3 mins - i.e. around the same time is would take to refuel. I have no doubt this will be the tech used for more serious electric motorsports and will likely trickle down to performance models in the consumer space.
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