BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   6Post.com | BMW 6-Series Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General BMW News and Cars Discussion

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-10-2022, 02:19 PM   #23
tracer bullet
Brigadier General
tracer bullet's Avatar
United_States
1971
Rep
3,240
Posts

Drives: '11 135i , '15 X3 35i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Saint Paul, MN

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtwo3 View Post
I'm willing to bet the opposite. I'm willing to bet the cars will be cheaper to manufacture.
I hear ya. Not just being contrary. But I don't see the cars getting cheaper to buy when / if this rolls out. Even if it's cheaper to put a heated seat into all cars as opposed to most cars, BMW is not going to share that cost savings. Just make yet more money.

It's all a prediction at this point anyhow, if the cars cost more / less / same to build and if we see those savings in lower car prices or just get charged twice.
Appreciate 0
      08-10-2022, 03:03 PM   #24
wtwo3
Major General
wtwo3's Avatar
17000
Rep
5,340
Posts

Drives: 23 X7 40i; 23 M3; 24 cooper s
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: IL

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by tracer bullet View Post
I hear ya. Not just being contrary. But I don't see the cars getting cheaper to buy when / if this rolls out. Even if it's cheaper to put a heated seat into all cars as opposed to most cars, BMW is not going to share that cost savings. Just make yet more money.

It's all a prediction at this point anyhow, if the cars cost more / less / same to build and if we see those savings in lower car prices or just get charged twice.
Oh absolutely, I don't expect BMW to share the cost savings. My only point was that I don't think cars will get more expensive to us, as consumers, as a result of this. This will be margin improvements for BMW to line their pockets with.
__________________
2023 BMW X7 xDrive40i
2023 BMW M3 6MT
2024 Mini Cooper S Convertible

'20 BMW m340i... '20 BMW X5 40i... '16 Infiniti Q50 RS 400... '10 Lexus RX 350... '08 Lexus IS 350... '00 Nissan Maxima... '93 Nissan Maxima
Appreciate 0
      08-10-2022, 03:03 PM   #25
Cos270
First Lieutenant
Cos270's Avatar
592
Rep
368
Posts

Drives: 2015 M235i
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: MI

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2015 F22 M235i  [0.00]
Unfortunately, most customers will accept/forget about it. Especially once all the major car makers are doing it (spoiler alert: most have plans to implement something like this in the next 5 years).
Appreciate 0
      08-10-2022, 03:03 PM   #26
B58-M340iX
First Lieutenant
United_States
164
Rep
303
Posts

Drives: 2021 M340i xDrive
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

I wonder how many will follow along with my thinking:

The good: owners can opt to enable things that they may not initially be able to include in their monthly lease/finance payment as they are financially able. While I realize that could just mean "buy it then when able," it allows for enjoying the car now, making it modular, and enabling options later. Alternatively, customers who plan to lease the car can use heated seats 3 months out of the year at $49, instead of paying $499 for unlimited (making up numbers), which saves the leaser money. When the 2nd buyer comes along, they can opt for any features not enabled.

While this may ultimately make more money for BMW than if the option was permanent from the get go, I can see second owners gaining a benefit here. How many have purchased a car and been bummed that x,y,z option was wanted but not added? This allows owners to enable things like ACC, heated seats/steering, etc., or not, and continue to drive the car as is.

The bad: people may want to just buy a barebones car because they want the performance, look, and class of the car without all of the extras. A subscription manufacturing process means that cars are produced with a bunch of extra modules, sensors, wiring, heating elements, etc. which may not be desired/used by the owner - all of that adds extra weight. Someone buying an M340 or M3 may just want a car without all the "extra" so they are the fastest on the road/track that they can be.

It's a double-edged sword that doesn't please everyone. Although, I would rather cars that are specifically ordered be built to spec without "extras," while dealership allotment/fleet cars could have subscription options as a possibility. This can lower the initial cost of getting into the car and allow for extras to be added later.

Last edited by B58-M340iX; 08-10-2022 at 03:11 PM..
Appreciate 0
      08-10-2022, 03:05 PM   #27
wtwo3
Major General
wtwo3's Avatar
17000
Rep
5,340
Posts

Drives: 23 X7 40i; 23 M3; 24 cooper s
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: IL

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///d View Post
Bingo. It will probably cost BMW less to manufacture all vehicles with the same specs vs try to manage specific lines for specific features. Plus they will get more money from microtransactions worldwide vs what they may lose in manufacturing costs to put heaters in every vehicle. Now folks who may not have thought about heated seats have the chance to try it, and they will likely be sold on them.

My only issue is this, I've seen things state features like M Suspension are going to be subscription based as well. So now someone who has to replace suspension components has to deal with the cost and complexity of M Suspension when it's a feature they don't use or want.
Yeah definitely nuances like this would have to be worked out. I'm not sure what that would mean from a labor perspective in terms of fixing an M suspension, but from a part perspective we should still see the benefit of an optimized supply chain, so the parts themselves shouldn't add to the cost of repair.
__________________
2023 BMW X7 xDrive40i
2023 BMW M3 6MT
2024 Mini Cooper S Convertible

'20 BMW m340i... '20 BMW X5 40i... '16 Infiniti Q50 RS 400... '10 Lexus RX 350... '08 Lexus IS 350... '00 Nissan Maxima... '93 Nissan Maxima
Appreciate 0
      08-10-2022, 03:07 PM   #28
wtwo3
Major General
wtwo3's Avatar
17000
Rep
5,340
Posts

Drives: 23 X7 40i; 23 M3; 24 cooper s
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: IL

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by B58-M340iX View Post
The bad: people may want to just buy a barebones car because they want the performance, look, and class of the car without all of the extras. A subscription manufacturing process means that cars are produced with a bunch of extra modules, sensors, wiring, heating elements, etc. which may not be desired/used by the owner - all of that adds extra weight. Someone buying an M340 or M3 may just want a car without all the "extra" so they are the fastest on the road/track that they can be.
I've thought about this as well. I'm not sure we're to the level yet where they'd roll this out to all models, and certainly not so much to the M models. But you can bet marketing will find a way to spin an "M pure" experience without all the "bloat".
__________________
2023 BMW X7 xDrive40i
2023 BMW M3 6MT
2024 Mini Cooper S Convertible

'20 BMW m340i... '20 BMW X5 40i... '16 Infiniti Q50 RS 400... '10 Lexus RX 350... '08 Lexus IS 350... '00 Nissan Maxima... '93 Nissan Maxima
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2022, 08:17 AM   #29
kyriian
Captain
kyriian's Avatar
746
Rep
641
Posts

Drives: 06 Black Sapphire Z4MR
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Ontario

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2014 BMW X5  [0.00]
2011 Scion tC  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtwo3 View Post
I've thought about this as well. I'm not sure we're to the level yet where they'd roll this out to all models, and certainly not so much to the M models. But you can bet marketing will find a way to spin an "M pure" experience without all the "bloat".
With BMW's current 'brilliant' marketing team, I would argue the opposite, a " M Black label" or some bs that will have MORE bloat and spin it as 'superior'

M engineers are still brilliant, don't get me wrong and they can still make a car drive well, its their marketing team that is looking at the cash cows that buys their cars now, because the enthusiasts who gave half a sh*t about the M experience has largely moved on.
__________________
Revolution of our Times
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2022, 08:31 AM   #30
wtwo3
Major General
wtwo3's Avatar
17000
Rep
5,340
Posts

Drives: 23 X7 40i; 23 M3; 24 cooper s
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: IL

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyriian View Post
With BMW's current 'brilliant' marketing team, I would argue the opposite, a " M Black label" or some bs that will have MORE bloat and spin it as 'superior'

M engineers are still brilliant, don't get me wrong and they can still make a car drive well, its their marketing team that is looking at the cash cows that buys their cars now, because the enthusiasts who gave half a sh*t about the M experience has largely moved on.
I agree their marketing has been having an identity crisis as of late and has been creating some questionable (putting it nicely) content.

But to be fair the decision to offer an "M pure" product doesn't lie with marketing, that lies with product management. Marketing just has to find a way to spin it so it sounds appealing and BMW can charge more for it even though it has less options.

In reality though, enthusiasts are a dying breed.
__________________
2023 BMW X7 xDrive40i
2023 BMW M3 6MT
2024 Mini Cooper S Convertible

'20 BMW m340i... '20 BMW X5 40i... '16 Infiniti Q50 RS 400... '10 Lexus RX 350... '08 Lexus IS 350... '00 Nissan Maxima... '93 Nissan Maxima
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2022, 08:56 AM   #31
///d
Lieutenant
///d's Avatar
United_States
1746
Rep
588
Posts

Drives: F15 35d M Sport
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Minne-snow-ta

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtwo3 View Post
I agree their marketing has been having an identity crisis as of late and has been creating some questionable (putting it nicely) content.

But to be fair the decision to offer an "M pure" product doesn't lie with marketing, that lies with product management. Marketing just has to find a way to spin it so it sounds appealing and BMW can charge more for it even though it has less options.

In reality though, enthusiasts are a dying breed.
I think a big reason enthusiasts are a dying breed is because of the lack of character in newer vehicles and how the push for green has made mods and tuning a much bigger no-no than before. It's becoming frowned upon to change anything bout a vehicle to make it your own. Plus the cost of anything vehicle or transportation related is getting more and more expensive, so cars are just becoming a tool for transport when needed and thats it.

I used to be able to tell the make and model of vehicles just by their headlights, but now everything uses the same damn shape and design. Even grill shapes, bumpers, etc are shared across multiple makes and platforms. No character. And they are becoming easier and easier to drive. The mechanical feel is gone.

I have also noticed that younger generations are starting to not care about driving, and many low 20something kids don't even have their license because they just use public transport.

That's at least what I've seen over the years. I used to go to meets and shows almost every month in the summer, but now theres hardly anything because businesses won't support them and you can't find locations to host them. Even the people that I saw at shows and such were becoming more and more disrespectful and inconsiderate. When I was growing up I was taught not to touch someone elses ride. Look and admire, but don't touch it. Now I see kids climbing all over others rides and parents not stopping them, grown adults messing with things in engine bays, scratching paint and wheels... it's sad.
__________________
F15 35d M Sport | 2019 Honda Grom (fast as f*ck boy!)

My Diesel Information Thread | My Wheels, Tires, and Fitment Thread | My Teardrop Camper Build | My F15 Suspension Lift Thread
Appreciate 2
Cos270592.00
wtwo316999.50
      08-11-2022, 10:14 AM   #32
wtwo3
Major General
wtwo3's Avatar
17000
Rep
5,340
Posts

Drives: 23 X7 40i; 23 M3; 24 cooper s
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: IL

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///d View Post
I think a big reason enthusiasts are a dying breed is because of the lack of character in newer vehicles and how the push for green has made mods and tuning a much bigger no-no than before. It's becoming frowned upon to change anything bout a vehicle to make it your own. Plus the cost of anything vehicle or transportation related is getting more and more expensive, so cars are just becoming a tool for transport when needed and thats it.

I used to be able to tell the make and model of vehicles just by their headlights, but now everything uses the same damn shape and design. Even grill shapes, bumpers, etc are shared across multiple makes and platforms. No character. And they are becoming easier and easier to drive. The mechanical feel is gone.

I have also noticed that younger generations are starting to not care about driving, and many low 20something kids don't even have their license because they just use public transport.

That's at least what I've seen over the years. I used to go to meets and shows almost every month in the summer, but now theres hardly anything because businesses won't support them and you can't find locations to host them. Even the people that I saw at shows and such were becoming more and more disrespectful and inconsiderate. When I was growing up I was taught not to touch someone elses ride. Look and admire, but don't touch it. Now I see kids climbing all over others rides and parents not stopping them, grown adults messing with things in engine bays, scratching paint and wheels... it's sad.
Yeah there's definitely some history behind the movement away from car enthusiasm. I remember reading an article about how kids no longer see cars as a "way of freedom" since they don't need to leave their house anymore. They play videogames online rather than in person like we did growing up. With social media, texting, internet, etc you have the world at your fingertips. And obviously the push towards safety and, as you said, the push for green.

This is also a big reason IMO why cars like Tesla do so well. They appeal less to car enthusiasts and more to tech enthusiasts. It's not about engagement anymore - it's about spreadsheet performance numbers and fart sounds.

As far as car prices - if you actually look at the curve of car pricing, it's more or less kept up with inflation. So, adjusted for inflation, cars aren't any more expensive today than they were 20+ years ago. I think it truly has to do with shifting priorities/ideas of leisure and less disposable income.
__________________
2023 BMW X7 xDrive40i
2023 BMW M3 6MT
2024 Mini Cooper S Convertible

'20 BMW m340i... '20 BMW X5 40i... '16 Infiniti Q50 RS 400... '10 Lexus RX 350... '08 Lexus IS 350... '00 Nissan Maxima... '93 Nissan Maxima
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2022, 10:38 AM   #33
Mason Hatcher
Captain
United_States
1003
Rep
616
Posts

Drives: BMW 230i
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: FW-TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by allinon72 View Post
Look around, everything is subscription based or moving in that direction. Pick the industry or product of your choice. It isn't going away, you can only hope to delay the inevitable. You'll own nothing and like it. It's just as much about control as it is profits.

Exactly who is trying to control you with subscription heated seats, and to what end? (pun intended)

Comments like that reek of a certain gun forum...
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2022, 10:40 AM   #34
///d
Lieutenant
///d's Avatar
United_States
1746
Rep
588
Posts

Drives: F15 35d M Sport
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Minne-snow-ta

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtwo3 View Post
As far as car prices - if you actually look at the curve of car pricing, it's more or less kept up with inflation. So, adjusted for inflation, cars aren't any more expensive today than they were 20+ years ago. I think it truly has to do with shifting priorities/ideas of leisure and less disposable income.
That may be true, but looking at the price tag still feels different. As I get older higher prices don't seem to bother me, but when I talk to some younger folks mentioning even a $40k car their eyes get the size of golf balls and they say thats expensive. Which maybe thats good, maybe that means the generations coming into adulthood are getting past overspending and focusing more on saving?
__________________
F15 35d M Sport | 2019 Honda Grom (fast as f*ck boy!)

My Diesel Information Thread | My Wheels, Tires, and Fitment Thread | My Teardrop Camper Build | My F15 Suspension Lift Thread
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2022, 10:41 AM   #35
MacLean_007
Private First Class
312
Rep
187
Posts

Drives: 20 X5 M50i, 23 M8 Comp GC
Join Date: Feb 2022
Location: TX

iTrader: (0)

I would not worry about this. The heated seat subscription is the same as when Apple CarPlay first came out. BMW was charging individualís to use Apple CarPlay, now it is free.
Appreciate 1
      08-11-2022, 10:48 AM   #36
wtwo3
Major General
wtwo3's Avatar
17000
Rep
5,340
Posts

Drives: 23 X7 40i; 23 M3; 24 cooper s
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: IL

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///d View Post
Tmaybe that means the generations coming into adulthood are getting past overspending and focusing more on saving?
Yeah cause they witnessed the shitstorm that was the 08 financial crisis

But seriously I think it's just changing of perspective as you move up the financial ladder. I graduated from undergrad during the 08 crisis - a few years later I dropped $27k on a used Lexus IS and thought it was an insane purchase. Now, 14 years later, I'm spending nearly SEVEN TIMES that on the 2 cars I have on order and consider it within my means. If you had told me 14 years ago I'd be spending this much on cars I'd think you were on drugs and then I'd probably ask you for some.
__________________
2023 BMW X7 xDrive40i
2023 BMW M3 6MT
2024 Mini Cooper S Convertible

'20 BMW m340i... '20 BMW X5 40i... '16 Infiniti Q50 RS 400... '10 Lexus RX 350... '08 Lexus IS 350... '00 Nissan Maxima... '93 Nissan Maxima
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2022, 10:57 AM   #37
chad86tsi
Captain
chad86tsi's Avatar
1545
Rep
767
Posts

Drives: 2019 BMW M760i P60 Greyblack
Join Date: Apr 2022
Location: Portland metro

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tracer bullet View Post
I'm willing to bet the car is already a few hundred dollars more expensive off the lot simply because the heaters are in those seats. Their materials, construction, shipment to the seat factory, installation in those seats, and so on isn't free. Even without using them, you've paid for them.

I get updates to maps, things like that, that are ongoing work for a car company. Heated seats are already installed, already ready to go, you've already paid for them, you're just being charged extra to use them.

It is in no way at all a cool thing that makes sense.
I'm sure it does cost more, but in many manufacturing scenarios it's cheaper to put all the optional material into a product and sell versions with some options disabled, than it is to make and stock multiple versions with different physical configurations. The heating elements may only cost $20 in material (I have no idea), but cost $30 in logistics to make, stock, and deliver different physical versions to the assembly line. Just ask tesla why they have so few options: Logistics, money saved... They specifically mention this as the reason. A lot of money can be saved in Logistics that pays for wasted product. This is an opportunity for BMW to get paid for that wasted product too.
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2022, 11:01 AM   #38
XMetal
Colonel
XMetal's Avatar
United_States
1066
Rep
2,823
Posts

Drives: Anything
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 Z4M Coupe  [10.00]
2018 Audi S3  [0.00]
2004 X5  [8.50]
If people keep buying them, this may be the future.
Attached Images
 
__________________
Appreciate 3
      08-11-2022, 11:06 AM   #39
wtwo3
Major General
wtwo3's Avatar
17000
Rep
5,340
Posts

Drives: 23 X7 40i; 23 M3; 24 cooper s
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: IL

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by XMetal View Post
If people keep buying them, this may be the future.
I'm gonna need to workout a lot more if that's my future
__________________
2023 BMW X7 xDrive40i
2023 BMW M3 6MT
2024 Mini Cooper S Convertible

'20 BMW m340i... '20 BMW X5 40i... '16 Infiniti Q50 RS 400... '10 Lexus RX 350... '08 Lexus IS 350... '00 Nissan Maxima... '93 Nissan Maxima
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2022, 11:41 AM   #40
B58-M340iX
First Lieutenant
United_States
164
Rep
303
Posts

Drives: 2021 M340i xDrive
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Looks like Doomguy's forearms from 2016/Eternal lol
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2022, 12:39 PM   #41
Humdizzle
Brigadier General
5813
Rep
3,506
Posts

Drives: GT3 + M2c
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Missouri

iTrader: (0)

of course it will pass.

just wait until they lock your dampers in sport+ and you have to pay to have comfort mode back.
__________________

2018 Porsche GT3 6MT
2021 M2C DCT
Previous: Ferrari 458 | R35 GTR | F80 M3 | E46 M3 | E36 M3 | Scion FRS
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2022, 02:04 PM   #42
BeEmVe
Lieutenant
United_States
243
Rep
550
Posts

Drives: '14 X1 x28i M-Sport
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: on the road to perdition

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by B58-M340iX View Post
The bad: people may want to just buy a barebones car because they want the performance, look, and class of the car without all of the extras. A subscription manufacturing process means that cars are produced with a bunch of extra modules, sensors, wiring, heating elements, etc. which may not be desired/used by the owner - all of that adds extra weight. Someone buying an M340 or M3 may just want a car without all the "extra" so they are the fastest on the road/track that they can be.
The additional weight is in the noise. There is already a bunch of features built into BMW that are there but not accessible. For instance, how many people in NA have swapped the headlight switch so to get rear fog lights? It is std. in other parts of the world the only difference is the switch.

That said how people here own a smart phone? I bet 98% and you may think you own it but you are really renting it.
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2022, 09:08 PM   #43
B58-M340iX
First Lieutenant
United_States
164
Rep
303
Posts

Drives: 2021 M340i xDrive
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeEmVe View Post
That said how people here own a smart phone? I bet 98% and you may think you own it but you are really renting it.
I paid outright for mine and have for 6 years-ish. There is an option for people to just buy their phone and not tie it to a lease/contract.
Appreciate 1
      08-11-2022, 11:50 PM   #44
BeEmVe
Lieutenant
United_States
243
Rep
550
Posts

Drives: '14 X1 x28i M-Sport
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: on the road to perdition

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by B58-M340iX View Post
I paid outright for mine and have for 6 years-ish. There is an option for people to just buy their phone and not tie it to a lease/contract.
My point was missed. Yes you can buy it but you are going to be replacing it because the OS can not be updated and apps will no longer work, etc. So you have obsolete electronics thus you really rented it.
Appreciate 1
POBEP299.50
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:38 AM.




6post.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST