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      05-24-2020, 09:47 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
Are people getting underpaid now because an average price of a house is $150K today but the median income is $55k

So it's either people are underpaid or the price of today's average home is too high.

1970 $24K home = $158K home in today's money
1970 $19K wage = $125K in today's money

Did I just answered my own question?
So home prices are staying the same. We're just getting paid a lot less.
Why do you assume everything should be comparable to 1970? Many things have changed over the past 50 years. Wealth built through stock market and investment income and appreciation, energy prices, taxes, interest rates, Fannie Mae / Freddie Mac / financing availability, annual inflation rate (particularly in the 1970s), unemployment, types of jobs people are doing (declines in manufacturing jobs / rise in services), home sizes, building standards, population growth (natural and immigration), and on and on. Hard to pick 2 data points and conclude something is wrong because the correlation changed without a full consideration of all the other data points that contributed to the change. I would not bet on a major decline in home prices or a spike in earnings because the relationship is no longer the same as 50 years ago.
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      05-24-2020, 10:11 AM   #24
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Average is a very non technical terms as real estate is local market based... but has it gotten out of hand? holy hell yes it has

I can only speak to South Florida and Miami but most people don't know the median income in the area is 55k for an entire family... any housing below 300k is borderline trash... now how is that supposed to work?

12 years ago when the crash happened, you could buy 3 ok homes for that price... that wasn't that long ago...

Reality is that a reset needs to happen and quick or we will need to bring Affordable housing for the middle class nationwide... also recent fed decisions have made the problem worse if you know what I mean.
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      05-24-2020, 10:14 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by iqraceworks View Post
Like everything else today...people want bigger, more expensive, and fancier stuff. Who would have ever though a pickup truck would cost $60k+? Houses are crazy expensive because they are huge. What's the average square footage of a home in 1970 vs now? And don't forgot all the additional wiring and tech that goes into newer homes for data/web access.

Most people are just concerned about keeping up with the Jones's.
where are you people getting this info? Size is a non real metric as massive houses in GA cost fractions of dumps in NJ... its 100% location based.
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      05-24-2020, 10:25 AM   #26
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where are you people getting this info? Size is a non real metric as massive houses in GA cost fractions of dumps in NJ... its 100% location based.
https://www.census.gov/const/C25Ann/...medavgsqft.pdf

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/new-u...early-doubled/
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      05-24-2020, 10:29 AM   #27
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where are you people getting this info? Size is a non real metric as massive houses in GA cost fractions of dumps in NJ... its 100% location based.
https://www.census.gov/const/C25Ann/...medavgsqft.pdf

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/new-u...early-doubled/
Why does that remotely matter? you have a choice to buy a smaller home... in the 2nd article; read bulleted point 3...

You do not typically have a large choice in terms of location... and wage growth has not kept up w housing costs. That is all that matters.

Location and lack of wage growth.
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      05-24-2020, 10:35 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by iqraceworks View Post
Like everything else today...people want bigger, more expensive, and fancier stuff. Who would have ever though a pickup truck would cost $60k+? Houses are crazy expensive because they are huge. What's the average square footage of a home in 1970 vs now? And don't forgot all the additional wiring and tech that goes into newer homes for data/web access.

Most people are just concerned about keeping up with the Jones's.
There's no way data comm wiring is accounting for the large price increase/differential we're talking about here. I just went back to my options/pricing sheet for my vacation home built as new construction from a track builder. House was built in 2012. An additional electrical outlet was $75. Datacom drops were $140. Hardly a cost that would blow up a price of a home. Even at the inflated $140 price. I opted not to do much more than what was included in the price of the home as I knew I could run the cabling and terminate them for much cheaper.
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      05-24-2020, 10:39 AM   #29
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Why does that remotely matter? you have a choice to buy a smaller home... in the 2nd article; read bulleted point 3...

You do not typically have a large choice in terms of location... and wage growth has not kept up w housing costs. That is all that matters.

Location and lack of wage growth.
I think you missed the point of that second article. It is saying the opposite of what you are saying, including the following:

So on an inflation-adjusted basis, Americans are actually paying only slightly more today for a new house on a per square-foot basis ($120) than in 1973 ($114.42), for homes that are of higher quality and more energy-efficient with more features like air conditioning, fireplaces and multiple garages. Overall, the increasing amount of living space (especially when adjusted for declining household size), the improvements in housing quality, the increased number of features, and relative affordability of new houses today means that living standards continue to gradually, but consistently, improve year after year for millions of Americans.

Miami is affected by a lot of foreign buyers and that is unlikely to change. I moved 75 miles north back in 2002 because I chose not to pay the price to live in Miami and didnít want to live in Miami. Even back then $300K in a place like Pinecrest was a tear down. If someone doesnít like the economics where they live, they can move and find another job or source of income.
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      05-24-2020, 10:43 AM   #30
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My first real estate was a 950 ft2 2 story 2 bdrm condo in the San Diego suburbs in 1977 and cost $33.5K

My annual compensation in 1977 was $16.0K
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      05-24-2020, 11:49 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickFLM4 View Post
I think you missed the point of that second article. It is saying the opposite of what you are saying, including the following:

So on an inflation-adjusted basis, Americans are actually paying only slightly more today for a new house on a per square-foot basis ($120) than in 1973 ($114.42), for homes that are of higher quality and more energy-efficient with more features like air conditioning, fireplaces and multiple garages. Overall, the increasing amount of living space (especially when adjusted for declining household size), the improvements in housing quality, the increased number of features, and relative affordability of new houses today means that living standards continue to gradually, but consistently, improve year after year for millions of Americans.

Miami is affected by a lot of foreign buyers and that is unlikely to change. I moved 75 miles north back in 2002 because I chose not to pay the price to live in Miami and didnít want to live in Miami. Even back then $300K in a place like Pinecrest was a tear down. If someone doesnít like the economics where they live, they can move and find another job or source of income.

So true in so many aspects of our lives. The luxury sports cars of today that are accessible to people making around $100k per year are faster, more luxurious, more reliable than the supercars of the early 90s that were accessible only to the top 0.1%.
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      05-24-2020, 11:57 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickFLM4 View Post
I think you missed the point of that second article. It is saying the opposite of what you are saying, including the following:

So on an inflation-adjusted basis, Americans are actually paying only slightly more today for a new house on a per square-foot basis ($120) than in 1973 ($114.42), for homes that are of higher quality and more energy-efficient with more features like air conditioning, fireplaces and multiple garages. Overall, the increasing amount of living space (especially when adjusted for declining household size), the improvements in housing quality, the increased number of features, and relative affordability of new houses today means that living standards continue to gradually, but consistently, improve year after year for millions of Americans.

Miami is affected by a lot of foreign buyers and that is unlikely to change. I moved 75 miles north back in 2002 because I chose not to pay the price to live in Miami and didn’t want to live in Miami. Even back then $300K in a place like Pinecrest was a tear down. If someone doesn’t like the economics where they live, they can move and find another job or source of income.

So true in so many aspects of our lives. The luxury sports cars of today that are accessible to people making around $100k per year are faster, more luxurious, more reliable than the supercars of the early 90s that were accessible only to the top 0.1%.
That's due to lengthy car loans and high interest rates, not the price of vehicles being more attainable, it's actually quite the opposite, similar to student loans.
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      05-24-2020, 12:21 PM   #33
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Why does that remotely matter? you have a choice to buy a smaller home... in the 2nd article; read bulleted point 3...

You do not typically have a large choice in terms of location... and wage growth has not kept up w housing costs. That is all that matters.

Location and lack of wage growth.
I think you missed the point of that second article. It is saying the opposite of what you are saying, including the following:

So on an inflation-adjusted basis, Americans are actually paying only slightly more today for a new house on a per square-foot basis ($120) than in 1973 ($114.42), for homes that are of higher quality and more energy-efficient with more features like air conditioning, fireplaces and multiple garages. Overall, the increasing amount of living space (especially when adjusted for declining household size), the improvements in housing quality, the increased number of features, and relative affordability of new houses today means that living standards continue to gradually, but consistently, improve year after year for millions of Americans.

Miami is affected by a lot of foreign buyers and that is unlikely to change. I moved 75 miles north back in 2002 because I chose not to pay the price to live in Miami and didn't want to live in Miami. Even back then $300K in a place like Pinecrest was a tear down. If someone doesn't like the economics where they live, they can move and find another job or source of income.
The paragraph you mentioned says nothing about wage growth which is the real problem... as far as Miami and foreign owned investment; Miami Herald proved that only contributes to the issue by a few % points... lets make this clear the answer to everything is moving... weather, politics etc etc... however this should never be the only solution.
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      05-24-2020, 12:21 PM   #34
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Also isn't the 1960-1970s around the time credit cards started coming out? I wonder what the correlation is there, because I know the amount of debt for the average American has skyrocketed since then.

I feel this gave us the ability to live beyond our means which in turn leads to rising costs of thing because we just finance it or put it on a credit card making income irrelevant for a lot of people. I mean there is soooo much shit we spend money on now that wasn't around in 1970. I mean some of our phones cost over $1000 and the phone bill for some is hundreds of dollars per month. We have to pay for internet service, we have 1000s of other subscriptions like Netflix, cable, gyms etc etc.

All that being said, I'd still rather live in this time.
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      05-24-2020, 12:38 PM   #35
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The paragraph you mentioned says nothing about wage growth which is the real problem... as far as Miami and foreign owned investment; Miami Herald proved that only contributes to the issue by a few % points... lets make this clear the answer to everything is moving... weather, politics etc etc... however this should never be the only solution.
What solution do you want? Miami doesnít have a lot of room to keep building single family homes so supply canít keep growing except through high rises. Force higher wages or cap real estate values through legislation? Neither is going to happen.

If enough people leave an area, demand goes down and prices go down. If people donít leave or people move in, demand and prices go up. Eventually if employers canít find workers because workers canít find housing, they either raise wages or leave the area. I am not familiar with the Herald study but find it hard to believe there isnít a more than insignificant impact from foreign and out of state buyers.
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      05-24-2020, 12:47 PM   #36
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That's due to lengthy car loans and high interest rates, not the price of vehicles being more attainable, it's actually quite the opposite, similar to student loans.
Eh I don't know about that. I'm looking this up now and it looks like a 1989 Ferrari Testarossa was $181,000 in 1989 dollars, which is about $386,000 in current dollars.

Even among supercars you can get a superior Ferrari product (in every metric) for less than $386,000 brand new.
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      05-24-2020, 12:50 PM   #37
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I don't understand the people who whine about housing costs in Miami, NY, San Fransisco etc. MOVE!! I'm sure there are some rare outliers who actually can't for legit reasons, but 99% of people could move, but choose to stay. You don't even have to move that far usually. I lived in Miami, I thought it was a horribly expensive shit hole. So I found a job an hour north, made the shitty commute for a while until I found a place and then moved. My friend lives in CA. He's managed to own 2 homes there while making middle class income. Of course he doesn't live in San Fransisco (although he has to drive there sometimes for work) or any of the big cities. He lives out where there's nothing but farms and people riding their damn horses through the drive-thru.
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      05-24-2020, 12:52 PM   #38
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Quote:
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The paragraph you mentioned says nothing about wage growth which is the real problem... as far as Miami and foreign owned investment; Miami Herald proved that only contributes to the issue by a few % points... lets make this clear the answer to everything is moving... weather, politics etc etc... however this should never be the only solution.
What solution do you want? Miami doesn’t have a lot of room to keep building single family homes so supply can’t keep growing except through high rises. Force higher wages or cap real estate values through legislation? Neither is going to happen.

If enough people leave an area, demand goes down and prices go down. If people don’t leave or people move in, demand and prices go up. Eventually if employers can’t find workers because workers can’t find housing, they either raise wages or leave the area. I am not familiar with the Herald study but find it hard to believe there isn’t a more than insignificant impact from foreign and out of state buyers.
You just said something very telling... demand needs to be driven down in major metro areas like Miami.

How can that happen? I can think of 2 things off the top of my head-

1) More people need to have the ability to wfh... if I think of the downtown metro area; I imagine many would not live there if their job didn't force them to. The us govt needs to incentivize this to companies with some sort of tax credits etc. This would limit congestion in general as well. Thats a country wide problem tho not just Miami alone...

2) Put in legislation in very congested areas that limits people purchasing strictly to invest... i.e... if you own more than one condo in this area; you need to physically live in one... not just purchase to rent or if you rent; you can only rent for a max number of years before you are forced to sell or have to move in yourself.
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      05-24-2020, 12:54 PM   #39
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I don't understand the people who whine about housing costs in Miami, NY, San Fransisco etc. MOVE!! I'm sure there are some rare outliers who actually can't for legit reasons, but 99% of people could move, but choose to stay. You don't even have to move that far usually. I lived in Miami, I thought it was a horribly expensive shit hole. So I found a job an hour north, made the shitty commute for a while until I found a place and then moved. My friend lives in CA. He's managed to own 2 homes there while making middle class income. Of course he doesn't live in San Fransisco (although he has to drive there sometimes for work) or any of the big cities. He lives out where there's nothing but farms and people riding their damn horses through the drive-thru.
if you have a decent job in an area you tend to live there... again, I am not the one whining because I can buy a place here tomorrow... but I think about the median income vs housing cost
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      05-24-2020, 12:54 PM   #40
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Eh I don't know about that. I'm looking this up now and it looks like a 1989 Ferrari Testarossa was $181,000 in 1989 dollars, which is about $386,000 in current dollars.

Even among supercars you can get a superior Ferrari product (in every metric) for less than $386,000 brand new.
I don't know about Ferraris, but the average car price in 1970 according to Google was around $23k in todays money. Average car today is around $36k. So it has gone up, but also a lot more tech and what not in cars.

I also wonder how much of that higher average is just because people choose to buy more expensive cars. I mean around here BMWs and Mercedes are like corollas. Was everyone in 1970 driving around in BMWs and Mercedes?
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      05-24-2020, 12:56 PM   #41
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if you have a decent job in an area you tend to live there... again, I am not the one whining because I can buy a place here tomorrow... but I think about the median income vs housing cost
But... if you have a "decent" job you should be able to afford a house there. If you can't then IMO it's not that decent. You can also move further away to a cheaper area and make the commute. I'm just saying people have choices and they choose to live there most of the time.
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      05-24-2020, 12:56 PM   #42
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Eh I don't know about that. I'm looking this up now and it looks like a 1989 Ferrari Testarossa was $181,000 in 1989 dollars, which is about $386,000 in current dollars.

Even among supercars you can get a superior Ferrari product (in every metric) for less than $386,000 brand new.
I don't know about Ferraris, but the average car price in 1970 according to Google was around $23k in todays money. Average car today is around $36k. So it has gone up, but also a lot more tech and what not in cars.

I also wonder how much of that higher average is just because people choose to buy more expensive cars. I mean around here BMWs and Mercedes are like corollas. Was everyone in 1970 driving around in BMWs and Mercedes?
average or median?

Average 23K car in the 1970s is lol worthy... dude i recall in the mid 90s... you could buy accords and camrys fully loaded for 25k... and thats about as middle of the pack as you can get.
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      05-24-2020, 12:58 PM   #43
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I did a search on MLS for homes for sale in Alexandria, VA. It's in the suburbs of DC. The cheapest home listed currently is a 1 bedroom 1 bath condo at 707 sf for $149,900.

https://www.brightmlshomes.com/homes...2303-298755885

The market prices here are not being driven by people buying McMansions. It's driven by the stability of the job market with the Fortune 1 employer of the US Federal Government along with the drag with the ancillary support business that feed off of Federal Government. As I said previously, people are willing to forgo size for the sake of being close to work so they're not in a car for about 4 hours a day commuting in from a place that has affordable housing for what many would deem to be an acceptable sized home.

Local governments are quick to suck on the teet of the increased taxes that are generated with ever booming real estate values but won't do anything to fix the transportation issues that are contributing to housing prices climbing through the roof. And because this area is what it is they all have short term memory as to how much of a disaster it was to evacuate people during a major crisis...9/11. The Federal building I was working at when 9/11 happened took 2 hours to evacuate because of the absolute gridlock that occurred. And the traffic situation has gotten worse in this area since 9/11.

There was mention of affordable housing. Some counties in this area have a requirement for some amount of affordable housing to be allocated for every new development that goes up. Of course there are loop holes developers can do to get around this. And when one does get put up, it's not a solution either. I know. I lived next to a group of affordable housing units. The people that lived there didn't care about the nice helping hand they got and subsequently trashed these new homes in just 2 years. Typical human nature. The whole saying of not having any skin in the game.
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      05-24-2020, 12:59 PM   #44
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average or median?

Average 23K car in the 1970s is lol worthy... dude i recall in the mid 90s... you could buy accords and camrys fully loaded for 25k... and thats about as middle of the pack as you can get.
According to my Google search it was average.

"In 1970 the average new car cost around 3,542 dollars, and a gallon of gas went for 36. cents."

If I run that through an inflation calculator to 2020 it says "23,405.41".

Obviously not a scientific study
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