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      05-04-2020, 11:16 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Bemo View Post
Instead of slapping 35 different ///M badges on most of the fleet, why not develop a large displacement naturally aspirated motor and get back to the beginning principles of the ///M division?

Else it's off to the Porsche GT division!
Because it makes no business sense with the market BMW is targeting...

Now take a look at Lotus to go back to the essence of the previous Ms. But you also have to accept the higher cost and reliability/quality issues that comes with it.

And I think most people would gladly jump to Porsche if it can deliver at a reasonable (read: BMW) price range. If you have the funds and are willing to pay the Porsche tax, than I would encourage you to run and not walk to the Porsche GT department. Taking relative cost aside, they do offer better driving experience than BMW.
People that can go P-Car usually do so without announcing what they would do. They tend to be more action rather than verbiage.......verbiage about changes they hope BMW will make to keep them as a customer, but won't happen. Posturing at its finest.
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      05-04-2020, 11:21 PM   #68
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I'm sorry but 50% of BMW's now wear an ///M badge????

I knew they are watering the ///M brand down but 50% is ridiculous. Worse part 90% of the population doesn't know the difference between an M3 and a m sport package.

I really miss the days of one or two flavors, limited colors and knowing you had the best because it had the badge...
I agree 100%, someone from the BMW North America or BMW CCA needs to write and tell them to stop watering down the M logo and identity, you dont need to stick an M badge on every other damn car to make a sale. X3/4/6 M are such nonsense, one M SUV is plenty enough in the lineup. M340i/550i/850i.... we can go on and on
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      05-04-2020, 11:28 PM   #69
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I'm sorry but 50% of BMW's now wear an ///M badge????

I knew they are watering the ///M brand down but 50% is ridiculous. Worse part 90% of the population doesn't know the difference between an M3 and a m sport package.

I really miss the days of one or two flavors, limited colors and knowing you had the best because it had the badge...
I agree 100%, someone from the BMW North America or BMW CCA needs to write and tell them to stop watering down the M logo and identity, you dont need to stick an M badge on every other damn car to make a sale. X3/4/6 M are such nonsense, one M SUV is plenty enough in the lineup. M340i/550i/850i.... we can go on and on
Most diehards would agree, but BMW markets to more than diehards. I, too, miss the simple days: M3/M5/M6. That's it!
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      05-05-2020, 01:21 AM   #70
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+1

People don't realize how hard it is to decrease weight in a modern car, while keeping the cost reasonable for its target demographic. Sure, the M2 could be made out of carbon fiber, but the cost and maintenance will be astronomical.

Not to mention all the new safety features, which not only includes the electronics, but also the various structural components that absorb the force and crumples in the predicted manner.

If you want lightness, look at the great ND Miata. But also know it compromises on pure power, not to mention how skinny the tires are. One key reason Mazda designers did not want to increase power is due to weight. In fact, the Japanese Mazda designers actually wanted the 1.5L to be standard, instead of adding a 2.0L. And lastly, look at the interior quality of the Miata. To get the weight down, the materials cannot be compared in terms of luxury feel of a BMW (read: not saying Miata quantity is poor).

I'm being optimist and hope even if BMW could get the next gen to 3400 - 3500 lbs, that would be a miracle.
If Porsche and Lotus can make 3000-3100 lbs cars with the build quality and all the safety tech required today I donít see why BMW canít do it. What happened to their carbon plastic products used in the i3 which starts at under 3000 lbs.

I realize itís not as easy today to make the cars lighter but itís not impossible. When you charge $140k for an M4 GTS and all you do is trim a few pounds and slap a roll cage and big wing you get an undesirable product. You either stay true to an ethos or you donít and I think BMW is walking away from it. On a side note I did drive the new M340 and it felt more fun to drive than the M5 and M2 comp, an everyday car that felt very agile.
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      05-05-2020, 01:35 AM   #71
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
+1

People don't realize how hard it is to decrease weight in a modern car, while keeping the cost reasonable for its target demographic. Sure, the M2 could be made out of carbon fiber, but the cost and maintenance will be astronomical.

Not to mention all the new safety features, which not only includes the electronics, but also the various structural components that absorb the force and crumples in the predicted manner.

If you want lightness, look at the great ND Miata. But also know it compromises on pure power, not to mention how skinny the tires are. One key reason Mazda designers did not want to increase power is due to weight. In fact, the Japanese Mazda designers actually wanted the 1.5L to be standard, instead of adding a 2.0L. And lastly, look at the interior quality of the Miata. To get the weight down, the materials cannot be compared in terms of luxury feel of a BMW (read: not saying Miata quantity is poor).

I'm being optimist and hope even if BMW could get the next gen to 3400 - 3500 lbs, that would be a miracle.
If Porsche and Lotus can make 3000-3100 lbs cars with the build quality and all the safety tech required today I don't see why BMW can't do it. What happened to their carbon plastic products used in the i3 which starts at under 3000 lbs.

I realize it's not as easy today to make the cars lighter but it's not impossible. When you charge $140k for an M4 GTS and all you do is trim a few pounds and slap a roll cage and big wing you get an undesirable product. You either stay true to an ethos or you don't and I think BMW is walking away from it. On a side note I did drive the new M340 and it felt more fun to drive than the M5 and M2 comp, an everyday car that felt very agile.
Did you read what I posted earlier? A GT3 is 3200 lbs.; a GT4 is 3000 pounds. There's NO UTILITY in either car. Porsche sells those cars at a low volume; they are a niche car company. BMW IS NOT. BMW cannot produce a passenger car at GT4 weight, and surely not without charging Porsche prices or beyond. You are high!

If a Lotus worked for you, you'd already be driving one. If a Porsche worked for you, you'd be driving one of those too.
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      05-05-2020, 01:56 AM   #72
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I'm still unable to accept the reality that BMW is no longer the automaker that I fell in love with. I still like to consider myself a fan, but not in the way I used to. BMW continually shows how tone deaf they are.

There have been a couple things that really broke my heart. One is when they said in a C&D interview that their customers do not want heavy power steering that responds to the road surface. The second was more recent when one of the suits said we should stop romanticizing the E46 M3 and should accept the G20 for being a high speed cruiser that's totally isolated from the road.

Statements like these are proof of a fundamental change in the automaker's identity and priorities. Yes their products are as fast as ever, but they've lost that special character that defined them for generations. Modern BMWs don't feel all that different to drive than Mercs and Audis. The good old days are gone forever.
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      05-05-2020, 02:05 AM   #73
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I'm still unable to accept the reality that BMW is no longer the automaker that I fell in love with. I still like to consider myself a fan, but not in the way I used to. BMW continually shows how tone deaf they are.

There have been a couple things that really broke my heart. One is when they said in a C&D interview that their customers do not want heavy power steering that responds to the road surface. The second was more recent when one of the suits said we should stop romanticizing the E46 M3 and should accept the G20 for being a high speed cruiser that's totally isolated from the road.

Statements like these are proof of a fundamental change in the automaker's identity and priorities. The good old days are gone forever.
Well name a better car in the segment. Surely not Audi. The Mercedes cars are okay, but the unadaptable-stuck-in-nostalgia Mercedes crowd sounds just like the unadaptable-stuck-in-nostalgia BMW crowd, so I suppose you guys could swap. Good luck with your manual transmission choice over there (...if you're an MT guy). Mercedes and Audi ditched MT lovers a long time ago.

FWIW, BMW isn't tone deaf at all. They've responded to provide products to their NEW customer base and they have responded to the complaints from their OLD/CURRENT customer base. Blame the buyers, not BMW. At the end of the day they must sell cars. The enthusiast is a small percentage of the community.
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      05-05-2020, 02:14 AM   #74
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Well name a better car in the segment. Surely not Audi. The Mercedes cars are okay, but the unadaptable-stuck-in-nostalgia Mercedes crowd sounds just like the unadaptable-stuck-in-nostalgia BMW crowd, so I suppose you guys could swap. Good luck with your manual transmission choice over there (...if you're an MT guy). Mercedes and Audi ditched MT lovers a long time ago.

FWIW, BMW isn't tone deaf at all. They've responded to provide products to their NEW customer base and they have responded to the complaints from their OLD/CURRENT customer base. Blame the buyers, not BMW. At the end of the day they must sell cars. The enthusiast is a small percentage of the community.
You sound like that one Browns or Lions fan who constantly feels the need to defend the organization's front office and ownership no matter how much they screw things up. Sure BMW is a notch above most competitors in driving dynamics, but that unquestionable advantage and distinctive character is no longer present. BMW's decisions over this past decade are certainly smart from a business-standpoint, but that doesn't mean i have to like those decisions.
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      05-05-2020, 02:16 AM   #75
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Well name a better car in the segment. Surely not Audi. The Mercedes cars are okay, but the unadaptable-stuck-in-nostalgia Mercedes crowd sounds just like the unadaptable-stuck-in-nostalgia BMW crowd, so I suppose you guys could swap. Good luck with your manual transmission choice over there (...if you're an MT guy). Mercedes and Audi ditched MT lovers a long time ago.

FWIW, BMW isn't tone deaf at all. They've responded to provide products to their NEW customer base and they have responded to the complaints from their OLD/CURRENT customer base. Blame the buyers, not BMW. At the end of the day they must sell cars. The enthusiast is a small percentage of the community.
You sound like that one Browns or Lions fan who constantly feels the need to defend the organization's front office and ownership no matter how much they screw things up. Sure BMW is a notch above most competitors in driving dynamics, but the clear distinction is not what it used to be. BMW's decisions over this past decade are smart business choices, but I don't have to like those decisions.
No, I just look at the big picture absent emotion. I also have been around a really long time. I remember the complaints over the last two decades. BMW's response falls directly in line with those complaints. You see it as a screw up. I see it a company that has to change to stay in business and to bring new customers to the brand. They cannot rely on old business. We are better off WITH a BMW than without.
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      05-05-2020, 02:19 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
I'm still unable to accept the reality that BMW is no longer the automaker that I fell in love with. I still like to consider myself a fan, but not in the way I used to. BMW continually shows how tone deaf they are.

There have been a couple things that really broke my heart. One is when they said in a C&D interview that their customers do not want heavy power steering that responds to the road surface. The second was more recent when one of the suits said we should stop romanticizing the E46 M3 and should accept the G20 for being a high speed cruiser that's totally isolated from the road.

Statements like these are proof of a fundamental change in the automaker's identity and priorities. The good old days are gone forever.
Well name a better car in the segment. Surely not Audi. The Mercedes cars are okay, but the unadaptable-stuck-in-nostalgia Mercedes crowd sounds just like the unadaptable-stuck-in-nostalgia BMW crowd, so I suppose you guys could swap. Good luck with your manual transmission choice over there (...if you're an MT guy). Mercedes and Audi ditched MT lovers a long time ago.

FWIW, BMW isn't tone deaf at all. They've responded to provide products to their NEW customer base and they have responded to the complaints from their OLD/CURRENT customer base. Blame the buyers, not BMW. At the end of the day they must sell cars. The enthusiast is a small percentage of the community.
No ones arguing they need to sell cars.

My point is there will be little difference now between an RS5 and the new M3/M4 and C63 for that matter.

In many ways the M4CS will be the last of its kind and I'll be holding onto it for a long time. It's a wild rear wheel spinning car with a DCT that does what I want when I want.

I can't see anything that excites me about the new M3/M4 as it has become no different to every other car in its segment.

Let's face it Audi does better interiors and Mercedes better exhaust notes - so why pick a BMW with a grill bigger than Antarctica that does much the same driving wise? Because it's a BMW?

I'm sure that doesn't matter to BMW or you just expressing an opinion.
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      05-05-2020, 02:20 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
No, I can't just look at the big picture absent emotion. I also have been around a really long time. I remember the complaints over the last two decades. BMW's response falls directly in line with those complainants. You see it as a screw up. I see it a company that has to change to stay in business and to bring new customers to the brand. They cannot rely on old business. We are better off WITH a BMW than without.
Of course they need to adapt with the shift in consumer tastes, but they went overboard. When supposed driver-oriented models like the 2/3/4-series and Z4 have been getting lukewarm reviews since 2012 you know something is very wrong.

We can agree to disagree, it is what it is. What I know for a fact is that driving an E9X side-by-side with an F30 or G20 is a depressing experience.
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      05-05-2020, 02:21 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drgmt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
I'm still unable to accept the reality that BMW is no longer the automaker that I fell in love with. I still like to consider myself a fan, but not in the way I used to. BMW continually shows how tone deaf they are.

There have been a couple things that really broke my heart. One is when they said in a C&D interview that their customers do not want heavy power steering that responds to the road surface. The second was more recent when one of the suits said we should stop romanticizing the E46 M3 and should accept the G20 for being a high speed cruiser that's totally isolated from the road.

Statements like these are proof of a fundamental change in the automaker's identity and priorities. The good old days are gone forever.
Well name a better car in the segment. Surely not Audi. The Mercedes cars are okay, but the unadaptable-stuck-in-nostalgia Mercedes crowd sounds just like the unadaptable-stuck-in-nostalgia BMW crowd, so I suppose you guys could swap. Good luck with your manual transmission choice over there (...if you're an MT guy). Mercedes and Audi ditched MT lovers a long time ago.

FWIW, BMW isn't tone deaf at all. They've responded to provide products to their NEW customer base and they have responded to the complaints from their OLD/CURRENT customer base. Blame the buyers, not BMW. At the end of the day they must sell cars. The enthusiast is a small percentage of the community.
No ones arguing they need to sell cars.

My point is there will be little difference now between an RS5 and the new M3/M4 and C63 for that matter.

In many ways the M4CS will be the last of its kind and I'll be holding onto it for a long time. It's a wild rear wheel spinning car with a DCT that does what I want when I want.

I can't see anything that excites me about the new M3/M4 as it has become no different to every other car in its segment.

Let's face it Audi does better interiors and Mercedes better exhaust notes - so why pick a BMW with a grill bigger than Antarctica that does much the same driving wise? Because it's a BMW?

I'm sure that doesn't matter to BMW or you just expressing an opinion.
There have always been only marginal differences between the RS5, C63 and M3. What was deemed better depended on personal preference. From a performance aspect they always split hairs.
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      05-05-2020, 02:22 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
No, I can't just look at the big picture absent emotion. I also have been around a really long time. I remember the complaints over the last two decades. BMW's response falls directly in line with those complainants. You see it as a screw up. I see it a company that has to change to stay in business and to bring new customers to the brand. They cannot rely on old business. We are better off WITH a BMW than without.
Of course they need to adapt with the shift in consumer tastes, but they went overboard. When supposed driver-oriented models like the 2/3/4-series and Z4 have been getting lukewarm reviews since 2009 you know something is very wrong.
Their sales numbers paint a very different picture.
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      05-05-2020, 02:25 AM   #80
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Their sales numbers paint a very different picture.
So to you the ends justify the means. We have a very fundamental difference in our priorities for the brand.

I could care less about how many cars they sell. BMW has become too big for its own good. They are trying to be everything to everybody and as a result we have a classic case of brand dilution.

Of course if BMW did not attempt to expand their consumer outreach they may have not survived, after all they are an independent group unlike say Audi who has billions on tap from their parent company. However I maintain that BMW has gone totally overboard in these attempts to capture marketshare.
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      05-05-2020, 02:25 AM   #81
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Driving the current M3 and C63 on a twisty
backroad and they are worlds apart.

BMW will only succeed to draw closer to the competition and not in a good way.
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      05-05-2020, 02:27 AM   #82
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Driving the current M3 and C63 on a twisty
backroad and they are worlds apart.

BMW will only succeed to draw closer to the competition and not in a good way.
...and some feel the complete opposite. Just go ask the Mercedes guys who prefer the C63 to the M3.
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      05-05-2020, 02:29 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by drgmt View Post
Driving the current M3 and C63 on a twisty
backroad and they are worlds apart.

BMW will only succeed to draw closer to the competition and not in a good way.
...and some feel the complete opposite. Just go ask the Mercedes guys who prefer the C63 to the M3.
Sure.

But the buyers want different things. That's my point.

Companies are foolish to betray their ethos. Short term gain long term pain.
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      05-05-2020, 02:33 AM   #84
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by drgmt View Post
Driving the current M3 and C63 on a twisty
backroad and they are worlds apart.

BMW will only succeed to draw closer to the competition and not in a good way.
...and some feel the complete opposite. Just go ask the Mercedes guys who prefer the C63 to the M3.
Sure.

But the buyers want different things. That's my point.

Companies are foolish to betray their ethos. Short term gain long term pain.
Their ethos has been fluid for over 20 years. It has never remained static.

At the end of the day, if your girlfriend changes too much for your liking (...and you haven't grown with her), break up with her and find a new one. There are plenty of other women out there.
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      05-05-2020, 02:35 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by drgmt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by drgmt View Post
Driving the current M3 and C63 on a twisty
backroad and they are worlds apart.

BMW will only succeed to draw closer to the competition and not in a good way.
...and some feel the complete opposite. Just go ask the Mercedes guys who prefer the C63 to the M3.
Sure.

But the buyers want different things. That's my point.

Companies are foolish to betray their ethos. Short term gain long term pain.
Their ethos has been fluid for over 20 years. It has never remained static.

At the end of the day, if your girlfriend changes too much for your liking (...and you haven't grown with her), break up with her and find a new one. There are plenty of other women out there.
That's what will happen.

Finally we agree on something.
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      05-05-2020, 03:50 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Did you read what I posted earlier? A GT3 is 3200 lbs.; a GT4 is 3000 pounds. There's NO UTILITY in either car. Porsche sells those cars are low volume; they are a niche car company. BMW IS NOT. BMW cannot produce a passenger car at GT4 weight, and surely not without charging Porsche prices or beyond. You are high!

If a Lotus worked for you, you'd already be driving one. If a Porsche worked for you, you'd be driving one of those too.
the lightest 2 cars that bmw still makes is well sadly ... the supra.

And that is still 3400 lbs for the i-6 and 3200 for the i4.

They are more than liveable though, so I guess if they really had to they could do it. I'd guess if they made the supra chassis smaller so it couldn't fit an i-6, made the B48 put out say 350+ hp, it probably wouldn't be insane to think it could get down to 3000-3100 lbs. Just make it some sort of e30 m3 throwback car.
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      05-05-2020, 06:56 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by dakine_surf View Post
I'm sorry but 50% of BMW's now wear an ///M badge????

I knew they are watering the ///M brand down but 50% is ridiculous. Worse part 90% of the population doesn't know the difference between an M3 and a m sport package.

I really miss the days of one or two flavors, limited colors and knowing you had the best because it had the badge...
Especially when the m340i is faster than the e92 m3 lol.
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      05-05-2020, 06:57 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
We can agree to disagree, it is what it is. What I know for a fact is that driving an E9X side-by-side with an F30 or G20 is a depressing experience.
You need to drive an E90 M3 back-to-back with an M2 Competition. I do it all the time. My M3 has some suspension mods and wider wheels than stock, the M2C is stock as delivered. The steering feedback approaching/at/over the limits on the M2C is much improved from any other EPS system I've driven from BMW, as we were literally ready to flip the car right away if it didn't meet our desires (our meaning my wife and I, it's her primary car). I spent the day on the Michelin 1/2 mile skidpad with the car on the 3rd day we owned it (had already racked up over 1000 miles) to really shake it down. The driving dynamics of the M2C are outstanding.

She wasn't going to sell her E90 330i (ZSP, 6MT) we owned since new unless the M2C met our expectations since clearly the F30 didn't.

I've been driving BMWs since 1974, and autocrossing 1975, track 1981, etc. 40 year CCA member, etc. I was instantly at home in the M2C on the skidpad, track and autocross courses. It's like a friendly helper just waiting to do whatever you ask and do it well.

One of the best parts of the M2C is the programming that went into the M-active LSD imo. Unlike the ridiculous Visco-Lok unit in the E46/E9x M3, this thing is super integrated into the car's dynamic situation. It's likely 100% open on slow-to-medium speed corner entry, so turn in is unreal instant with no push, and as you transition from heavy trailbraking to rolling on throttle at the apex, it's all ready for you as you track out under as much throttle as the rear tires can handle. It was just as much fun on the skidpad too drifting at 70mph. I really wish we could see some traces of locking percentage overlaid with a track map. I want to learn a lot more about the s/w behind controlling LSD locking percentage versus each input (and derivatives of those inputs).
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Current Stable:
2019 F87 M2 Competition 6MT, LBB, slicktop, exec pkg
2011.5 E90 M3 6MT Silverstone II, slicktop, Dinan/Eibach, Apex 9.5/10.5x19 with PS4S
2007 E91 328i Silver, slushbox, Eibach fr/E93 M3 rear sway bars, 219Ms
1975 CanAm 125MX2, stock, original owner
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