Official Tesla Talk Thread **No Politics**

[GrussGott]

You know, bundling gets me thinking about who EVs are going to disrupt/bankrupt beyond the legacy ICE manufacturers ... and next in line are the independent dealerships!

Independent dealerships are a big deal in the US and Europe because these are huge businesses (like $100B total each?) ... and yet forces are quickly aligning to destroy them:

(1.) Digitalization, i.e., online sales like Tesla, buying directly from auto manufacturers at the expense of dealerships.

(2.) Uber, Lyft, MyDriver, Japan Taxi, and other mobility services are cutting into new car sales, especially for younger customers (i.e., the historically higher volume cheaper cars ... that market may evaporate).

(3.) EVs sales are starting to j-curve & EVs require less maintenance and fewer replacement parts which cuts into dealer service & repair revenue.

(4.) Autonomous driving will (likely?) result in fewer accidents also cutting into repair revenue (though in Norway, insurance reports Teslas had an accident rate of 20.4% in 2018 vs 13.5% for all EVs & 9% for ICE!)

Dealerships will have to transform into exhibition, test, & turn over centers ...I have no idea how much revenue, say, a Tesla dealership / service center makes, but I'd guess it's a lot less than a legacy ICE dealership ...


The economics of dealerships are about to get batshit-crazy as the industry tries to consume 3 tectonic industry shifts simultaneously: ICE-to-EV, mobility services, autonomous driving.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

I don't think so. I think it's the higher priced models which disappear. EV powertrains will turn automobiles into commodity items because people drive torque not horsepower. EV's provide instant torque.

Other than choice of interior materials what will high priced luxury be able to offer that can't be found on lower priced luxury? They can't get any bigger.

I dunno, just spitballin' I can see:

• The low-end market hardware commoditizes
Similar to the android market: there's a software winner, but the hardware is contract MFR'd. Maybe mostly mobility service fleet vehicles, but dedicated vehicles in rural areas. Most of the vehicle, if not all, is recyclable and maybe even, with incentives and contracts, free.

• The mid-market goes semi-premium
This would be your iPhone car market, current Tesla / 3-series / c-class / Mach-e buyers as well as CUV versions. Pickups & SUVs would be here too, though would have a wider range of options from budget to premium. This market would have OS choice as well as premium materials and design, with contract subsidies available if, say, you choose Apple iCar OS.

• The high-end premium market is where the action is
This will be your sports cars & fancy slabs - everything from Taycans, GT3 RSs, to S-classes & X7s. This is where all the profits are and there'll be innovations here like super-caps, geared drive motors, fancy management software, solid state batteries (of whatever high-tech battery FOTM), connectivity, etc. I think all the big action moves here ... something that we've been missing for 10-15 years really. I think E90 development era.

But, just spitballin ... what do you think?

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Why is it justified that healthcare employees, grocery employees, gas station clerks, electrical grid maintenance staff, toilet paper company employees, water filtration employees, infrastructure builders (you get the gist) HAVE to work to keep society functioning, yet office-bound number crunchers get to stay at home. What about the CEO's of those companies? Are they egotistical assholes like Musk?

LOL. That article was non-sensical gibberish.

2 wrongs don't make a right. if the law says you shut you shut. end of. Or you leave like he did.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

It's all due to "bundling". Yup, digital cameras replaced film, so that's EV replacing ICE ... but your next step - DCs to phones - was 100% about bundling to eliminate individual purpose-built devices despite the diminishment of the individual devices ... and that didn't replace those devices, just some of them ...

That is, the bundled portable product (e.g., iPhone) replaced some individual devices like GPS, phone, camera, music player, movie player, gaming device, etc. by bundling them all together in one simple device that does all those things, albeit less well than a dedicated device.

So, for example, I still have a handheld digital camera with a huge sensor and lens that takes photos my phone could never match, though I don't carry it with me always so the phone is more convenient for everyday use. BUT when I travel, I almost ALWAYS have my DSLR or mirrorless handy.

The key there is convenience - so applying that back to cars, what's more convenient than a car that could be an everyday thing? Automated taxis and mobility services! ... however the # of places and times that's true may turn out to be WAY less than replacing a mirrorless with a phone. E.g., for urban living, maybe, but many people still choose to have a car for freedom/emotional/recreational/family reasons - in other words, there's no everyday "bundle" replacement for the car.


That said, one could argue level 5 autonomous vehicles bundle mobility and an operating system, i.e., mobility+iPhone ... and CLEARLY this is where Apple wants things to go because they want your eyeballs & attention during travel, but I'm a bear on AD at least the next 5 years and probably 10 years or more.

I also have a Sony dslr with telescopic lens etc unused for years in my cupboard.
Bundling is good. Convenience is owning a car not having to charge it and paying $1000 for a second hand one which is 15 years old and running it for 3 years paying for the odd tyre and oil change.
That's the stumbling block of EVs.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

2 wrongs don't make a right. if the law says you shut you shut. end of. Or you leave like he did.

It wasn't a law; it was a declaration by the Governor. Not all businesses were shut down. That's the point.

[Bongoxxx]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

Convenience is owning a car not having to charge it and paying $1000 for a second hand one which is 15 years old and running it for 3 years paying for the odd tyre and oil change.
That's the stumbling block of EVs.

Some would argue convenience is owning a car and not having to drive to put gas in it.

You know, like plugging your phone in every day to charge...plug your car in every night to charge it. Have a full range every time I leave the house, something I don’t get with ICE.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Bongoxxx

Some would argue convenience is owning a car and not having to drive to put gas in it.

You know, like plugging your phone in every day to charge...plug your car in every night to charge it. Have a full range every time I leave the house, something I don’t get with ICE.

This is a lame argument. 99% of ICE drivers don't make a single purpose trip to buy gasoline for their car, they take 5 minutes to stop and refuel when they are out running errands or commuting. Any ICE owner can refuel almost anywhere in their town or municipality in 5 minutes. Not every EV owner can charge at home. The ICE vs. EV recharge argument is not winnable for EV. It's just not, and that's why EVs are just near 2% of the market in the US. EV are not as convenient to refuel.

And it's not like recharging a phone because you can still use the phone while it is recharging, you can't drive an EV when it is plugged into the grid.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The ICE vs. EV recharge argument is not winnable for EV. It's just not, and that's why EVs are just near 2% of the market in the US. EV are not as convenient to refuel.

That's an equally lame buggy whip argument for so many reasons, here are a few:

(1.) Oil supply chains and gas stations have been building for 100 years - of course they're going to be more of them ... yet that supply chain is massively vulnerable and only works at scale! Any disruption to the supply chain at any point upstream from any locality will permanently kill gas availability to that location. and if it's, say, that gas consumption for your city just fell by 30%, then will trucks keep delivering at scale to that area? Nope. That's not convenience.

(2.) Gas stations have built their business model around "quick stop" retail - every retailer from Target to Walmart to Best Buy to Home Depot is salivating over that revenue ... the minute they can take it, they will, and gas stations will disappear faster than you can say "Dude, where's my gas ... and quick stop retail revenue?"

So local gasoline availability is vulnerable both at any point upstream in the supply chain, and economically at any given locality.

Beyond this we can talk about wireless charging technology that just about every chain retailer is looking at putting into their parking lots RIGHT NOW ...

And this is all before battery tech advancement which, despite being nascent, can already charge a Porsche from 5% to 80% in 20 minutes.


Bottom line:
In 5-6 years, in any major metro/suburbs, gas station trips will be special and be at least 20 minutes out of your way and it'll get worse from there ...

The only thing that stops gas stations from going bankrupt is if large chains try to blitzscale every location into an EV charging stop.

Go ask the buggy whip business at your local mall.

[GrussGott]

^^^ In a related story ^^^

I wonder what Apple's using that money on? A car?

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

That's an equally lame buggy whip argument for so many reasons, here are a few:

(1.) Oil supply chains and gas stations have been building for 100 years - of course they're going to be more of them ... yet that supply chain is massively vulnerable and only works at scale! Any disruption to the supply chain at any point upstream from any locality will permanently kill gas availability to that location. and if it's, say, that gas consumption for your city just fell by 30%, then will trucks keep delivering at scale to that area? Nope. That's not convenience.

(2.) Gas stations have built their business model around "quick stop" retail - every retailer from Target to Walmart to Best Buy to Home Depot is salivating over that revenue ... the minute they can take it, they will, and gas stations will disappear faster than you can say "Dude, where's my gas ... and quick stop retail revenue?"

So local gasoline availability is vulnerable both at any point upstream in the supply chain, and economically at any given locality.

Beyond this we can talk about wireless charging technology that just about every chain retailer is looking at putting into their parking lots RIGHT NOW ...

And this is all before battery tech advancement which, despite being nascent, can already charge a Porsche from 5% to 80% in 20 minutes.


Bottom line:
In 5-6 years, in any major metro/suburbs, gas station trips will be special and be at least 20 minutes out of your way and it'll get worse from there ...

The only thing that stops gas stations from going bankrupt is if large chains try to blitzscale every location into an EV charging stop.

Go ask the buggy whip business at your local mall.

I used my fingers just to double check, but 20 minutes is still 15 minutes slower than 5 minutes. And if someone really wanted to, the electric grid can be taken out in a few hours. So supply chain is relative. There is a ratio between physics, chemistry and cost...

But you'll be happy to know I did sign up for Sky Net, err... Star Link, so I'll be funding the EV takeover one byte at a time for $99 a month. That's if Elon's phone app worked for me, it wasn't very intuitive.

I'm just hoping there will be some gas stations left and grease at the local auto parts store to lube the bronze bushing in the clutch pedal arm by the time my new Bronco arrives.

[Bongoxxx]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

This is a lame argument. 99% of ICE drivers don't make a single purpose trip to buy gasoline for their car, they take 5 minutes to stop and refuel when they are out running errands or commuting. Any ICE owner can refuel almost anywhere in their town or municipality in 5 minutes. Not every EV owner can charge at home. The ICE vs. EV recharge argument is not winnable for EV. It's just not, and that's why EVs are just near 2% of the market in the US. EV are not as convenient to refuel.

And it's not like recharging a phone because you can still use the phone while it is recharging, you can't drive an EV when it is plugged into the grid.

It’s a lame argument because you disagree or because you haven’t driven an EV for an extended period of time?

Admittedly I don’t own one, but will seriously consider one for my next vehicle.

After spending a month driving a Model S and never having to experience the “convenience” of having to go to a gas station it may change your mind on what convenience is. Coming out every morning to a full “tank” with over 500kms of range is quite different.

Yes, as you say I can just take 5 minutes (although it always seems to take longer than 5 minutes) to stop at a gas station while doing other errands but it still is an extra stop. With an EV I don’t have to waste “5 minutes” of my time doing it at all.

Granted it’s not for everyone if you can’t charge at home - but there are more and more super chargers being installed at a mall, big box store etc. near you each and every day. So instead of taking 5 minutes extra to fill up, you plug in while you run your errands at the mall, Best Buy, Home Depot etc and come out 15-20 minutes later topped up.

[FreeDarko]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

I also have a Sony dslr with telescopic lens etc unused for years in my cupboard.
Bundling is good. Convenience is owning a car not having to charge it and paying $1000 for a second hand one which is 15 years old and running it for 3 years paying for the odd tyre and oil change.
That's the stumbling block of EVs.

We have 2 ICE and 2 Teslas.

There are pros and cons to both, and on paper it's hard to decipher how those negatives play out in the real world based on each persons use scenarios.

However as person who has lived in the city for past 30 years (8 with a Model S) and now in rural part of the country with both S and Y, there is hardly any downside that should negate owning one as your daily.

Obviously I was nervous of using a Tesla in the rural part of the country as the closest charger is 30 mins away. Now that could still be an issue if I forget to plug it in on a trip out or we get a nasty storm that cuts all the power lines.

And there is still some range anxiety on road trips even though we are littered with charging stations in Ontario. Having said that We still take the Tesla over even a 2020 Cayenne EHybrid on most trips around the Northeast up to 10hrs distance.

Regardless the one thing that is not an inconvenience is plugging it in each night. It becomes 2nd nature like opening your door to step out and more importantly every winter I'm reminded how much of a blessing it is to have this option over heading to the gas station.

Everyone who owns a Tesla in the Northeast will admit this one convenience is worth plugging in for.

[David70]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

This is a lame argument. 99% of ICE drivers don't make a single purpose trip to buy gasoline for their car, they take 5 minutes to stop and refuel when they are out running errands or commuting. Any ICE owner can refuel almost anywhere in their town or municipality in 5 minutes. Not every EV owner can charge at home. The ICE vs. EV recharge argument is not winnable for EV. It's just not, and that's why EVs are just near 2% of the market in the US. EV are not as convenient to refuel.

And it's not like recharging a phone because you can still use the phone while it is recharging, you can't drive an EV when it is plugged into the grid.

I think we will soon buy an EV as one of our cars and I expect this car would be charged 99.9% of the time at our house. Never going to a gas pump with this car is a benefit, can't see how it wouldn't be, especially when it is 5 degrees out. My wife asks me to fill up her car virtually every time I use it as she doesn't like doing it herself. I can't think of a time we would ever charge this car away from home. I agree it's not a giant benefit but still a benefit. I would be interested in seeing the percentage of EV owners that can't charge at home, right now it seems like a big pain in the neck and think it is close to 0%.

Also think 5 minutes from original route back to original route is impossible as an average. Sometimes get stuck waiting for someone to move, lights, traffic, etc.

If someone told me my great new phone just needs to be charged once a week for 5 minutes at a station on the way to work I wouldn't consider it.

[David70]

This made me laugh, can't imagine anyone but Tesla getting away with their customers. Interested in seeing who in an EV would actually try to go below zero as running to empty with an EV is a big problem. Something to consider when comparing range as Tesla's looks to be unrealistic for actual use.

https://electrek.co/2021/03/25/tesla...-0-mile-range/

Tesla claims EPA range can be achieved on its electric cars by draining battery beyond zero-mile range

In response to an independent range test, Tesla has reportedly claimed that the EPA range on its vehicles can be achieved by draining the battery pack beyond the zero-mile displayed range.

Last month, we reported on Edmunds conducting independent range tests on a bunch of electric vehicles to compare them to their EPA estimates.

The results showed that Tesla is using the most optimistic versions of its EPA estimated range in its advertising compared to other automakers.

Now Edmunds is out with a follow-up report in which they claim that Tesla reached out to them following their test to state that they should have accounted for the “buffer” that comes after the displayed range reaches zero miles:

Needless to say, Tesla was not happy with our test results, and we received a phone call. Tesla’s engineers disputed our figures. They argued that we’d underestimated their cars’ true range because our test ran to an indicated zero miles rather than to a stop.

Tesla argued that even when the indicated range hits zero, there’s still a safety buffer. The engineers reckoned that if you add this buffer, the distance measured to when the battery is spent, their cars would match the EPA results.

It’s surprising that Tesla would claim that since it’s not how people use their electric vehicles.

Edmunds put Tesla’s claim to the test and tested three Tesla vehicles, as well as two vehicles from other manufacturers, to see how many miles they would get after the displayed range hits zero.

Here are the results:

That test was at 65 mph, but they also performed the test with a cycle closer to the EPA test cycle:

Edmunds says that Tesla engineers told them that “the buffer cannot be defined exactly to a number every time — it will change based on external conditions, driving profile, etc.”

When adding those buffer results, only two of Tesla’s vehicles actually hit their EPA estimated range.

They concluded:

Our answer to Tesla’s dismay with our initial results is that, yes, two of the automaker’s vehicles can match the EPA’s range estimates in the Edmunds EV range test. But that’s only under specific circumstances and by driving each vehicle past zero indicated miles of range.

[KRS_SN]

When it's pouring of rain or snow standing outside fiddling with cables everyday.(I dont garage my cars). Sitting in the car for 45 minutes till it charges on a road trip. No thank you.
Worst of all people preferring a tesla s to a cayenne etc I have travelled in both and the road and tyre noise and quality feel are chalk and cheese.Y can only be worse.

[David70]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

When it's pouring of rain or snow standing outside fiddling with cables everyday.(I dont garage my cars). Sitting in the car for 45 minutes till it charges on a road trip. No thank you.
Worst of all people preferring a tesla s to a cayenne etc I have travelled in both and the road and tyre noise and quality feel are chalk and cheese.Y can only be worse.

Why would you be fiddling with cables everyday and what does this mean? You mean taking the plug off the wall and plugging it into the car? Must drive a huge amount of miles to charge every day, if so an EV is likely a poor choice now. If you drive 13k miles a year (pretty close to average), this is 36 miles a day (average - some days are higher some lower)

I agree I wouldn't take it on a road trip but we have 2 cars, we do about 2 road trips a year. I rented a truck yesterday because I occasionally need one, sure wouldn't buy one because I want it 4 times a year.

[KRS_SN]

@David70
Most people rave about waking up with a full charge everyday and not going so I was putting myself in their shoes.
My typical scenario is get out of car run home when snow or rain and run in in the morning to the car.
EV scenario Get out of car take cable open charger port attach etc get out of the house detach cable attach cable to wall and close port yes maybe under a minute each but not for me.
True 36miles/day my commute a 5 minute refill gets me 500 miles ie once every 2 weeks. Wouldn't it be nice to only plug in your mobile once every 2 weeks and get it fully charged under 5 minutes. For me yes even if it is more expensive.

[David70]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

@David70
Most people rave about waking up with a full charge everyday and not going so I was putting myself in their shoes.
My typical scenario is get out of car run home when snow or rain and run in in the morning to the car.
EV scenario Get out of car take cable open charger port attach etc get out of the house detach cable attach cable to wall and close port yes maybe under a minute each but not for me.
True 36miles/day my commute a 5 minute refill gets me 500 miles ie once every 2 weeks. Wouldn't it be nice to only plug in your mobile once every 2 weeks and get it fully charged under 5 minutes. For me yes even if it is more expensive.

I don't care about having max range everyday (why would I?), just need enough to get through the next day easily without being at all concerned about running out.

If my two options were to plug my phone in every 4-5 days at my house or stop on the way to work at a charging station and sit there for 5 minutes (most of the time is standing outside next to my car) to make it 2 weeks I would do it at home. Still think the total time to charge my car on average is more than 5 minutes (on route to back on route).

Get the 3 Long Range 353 miles range, conservative figure 280 miles and the 36 mile commute x 5 days I am at 180 miles. If heavy rain or whatever I just skip it until tomorrow and charge it after 6 days.

Also add that none of our 3 ICE's will get to 500 miles on a tank for normal mixed driving and this is if you run them dry. Z4M range is about 250 on a tank.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Bongoxxx

It’s a lame argument because you disagree or because you haven’t driven an EV for an extended period of time?

Admittedly I don’t own one, but will seriously consider one for my next vehicle.

After spending a month driving a Model S and never having to experience the “convenience” of having to go to a gas station it may change your mind on what convenience is. Coming out every morning to a full “tank” with over 500kms of range is quite different.

Yes, as you say I can just take 5 minutes (although it always seems to take longer than 5 minutes) to stop at a gas station while doing other errands but it still is an extra stop. With an EV I don’t have to waste “5 minutes” of my time doing it at all.

Granted it’s not for everyone if you can’t charge at home - but there are more and more super chargers being installed at a mall, big box store etc. near you each and every day. So instead of taking 5 minutes extra to fill up, you plug in while you run your errands at the mall, Best Buy, Home Depot etc and come out 15-20 minutes later topped up.

It's lame because I've driven ICE for 40 years and have never found filling up the car at a gas station as inconvenient. I've also owned an EV in the 1970's, a 1973 GE Electrak (long since dead), which we recharged at home, so I totally get the refuel at home bit. Right now, I have an electric golf cart with a suspension lift that my wife uses to cruise around our property. So I'm no stranger to EV. And 2 years ago I bought an electric push mower. And crazy ass me has five (5) Milwaukee M12 power tools. And I'm of the age group that enjoyed playing with Hot Wheels Sizzlers as a kid. It's fair to say I'm far from anti-battery power.

But not everyone finds refueling at a gas station as troublesome. In my case EVs don't have enough winter range for my needs (170-miles day). For a transportation device, there are many ICE alternatives to a $40K Model 3 that the purchase price differential buys over 250,000 miles of fuel. I'm sorry but that's just the facts. Add in the convenience of a 400-mile recharge in 5 minutes almost anywhere in the US, and the buying preference tells the story.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

When it's pouring of rain or snow standing outside fiddling with cables everyday.(I dont garage my cars). Sitting in the car for 45 minutes till it charges on a road trip. No thank you.
Worst of all people preferring a tesla s to a cayenne etc I have travelled in both and the road and tyre noise and quality feel are chalk and cheese.Y can only be worse.

My problem I have is I have a large property that is comprised of a very old house with 200 amp service and a new barn I built in 2004, which is my workshop that has 400 amp service. The property is on a river, so the buildings are away from the flood zone. So without some confrontation with the county*... the only place I can charge an EV is at the barn, which is 350 feet from the house, but the way the property is configured it's a 2 minute walk on gravel between the buildings. So if I look at charging, and I'd have to almost fully recharge everyday, it's a 4 minute walk round trip to recharge an EV. That's 20 minutes a week, vs. 10 minutes per week for two fill ups at a gas station (I fill up twice a week). So for me, gas station recharging is more convenient and less time consuming. It's a similar situation for a person living in an apartment building with no EV charging; gasoline recharging is more convenient. When it rains, it would be real inconvenient to walk over to the barn; gas stations have roofs over the pumps.

*The confrontation with county would be because I built a 3-car carport between the river and the house that is a 30-second walk from the house. I could electrify the carport because the electric utility pole that serves the house and the barn is 5 feet away from the carport. I'd have to get the utility company to add an electric meter to the carport, which requires a permit from the county, but I never got a permit for the carport, so the county might frown upon that...

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

My problem I have is I have a large property that is comprised of a very old house with 200 amp service and a new barn I built in 2004, which is my workshop that has 400 amp service. The property is on a river, so the buildings are away from the flood zone. So without some confrontation with the county*... the only place I can charge an EV is at the barn, which is 350 feet from the house, but the way the property is configured it's a 2 minute walk on gravel between the buildings. So if I look at charging, and I'd have to almost fully recharge everyday, it's a 4 minute walk round trip to recharge an EV. That's 20 minutes a week, vs. 10 minutes per week for two fill ups at a gas station (I fill up twice a week). So for me, gas station recharging is more convenient and less time consuming. It's a similar situation for a person living in an apartment building with no EV charging; gasoline recharging is more convenient. When it rains, it would be real inconvenient to walk over to the barn; gas stations have roofs over the pumps.

*The confrontation with county would be because I built a 3-car carport between the river and the house that is a 30-second walk from the house. I could electrify the carport because the electric utility pole that serves the house and the barn is 5 feet away from the carport. I'd have to get the utility company to add an electric meter to the carport, which requires a permit from the county, but I never got a permit for the carport, so the county might frown upon that...

how dare you not suffer the inconveniences above for the sake of the polar bears and the best fastest coolest techiest vehicle in the world
I am one of the few people in the UK who works next to a costco. Premium fuel is good. As I drive away after the 2 weekly food shop I fill up takes me 3 minutes and gives me over 500 miles in my X5 30d's.
My wife is so busy at work and so disorganised she doesn't even look at the fuel indicator so EV charging and her will be a disaster.
Worst of all when I'm at work and get a call saying my relative who lives 400 miles away is unwell I don't want to say give me a few hours while I charge my car. I want to be able to jump in and drive whenever same of on friday evening kids and mrs say let's go somewhere I want to be able to jump in the car and drive while she makes reservations etc without charging or planning supercharger routes etc.
So in summary EVs are more inconvenient for most folk than most EV supporters will ever admit. For some it will be not for me and many like me.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by FreeDarko

We have 2 ICE and 2 Teslas.

There are pros and cons to both, and on paper it's hard to decipher how those negatives play out in the real world based on each persons use scenarios.

However as person who has lived in the city for past 30 years (8 with a Model S) and now in rural part of the country with both S and Y, there is hardly any downside that should negate owning one as your daily.

Obviously I was nervous of using a Tesla in the rural part of the country as the closest charger is 30 mins away. Now that could still be an issue if I forget to plug it in on a trip out or we get a nasty storm that cuts all the power lines.

And there is still some range anxiety on road trips even though we are littered with charging stations in Ontario. Having said that We still take the Tesla over even a 2020 Cayenne EHybrid on most trips around the Northeast up to 10hrs distance.

Regardless the one thing that is not an inconvenience is plugging it in each night. It becomes 2nd nature like opening your door to step out and more importantly every winter I'm reminded how much of a blessing it is to have this option over heading to the gas station.

Everyone who owns a Tesla in the Northeast will admit this one convenience is worth plugging in for.

Honest answer... would you own the Tesla's IF you didn't have an ICE as well?