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      06-25-2019, 02:25 AM   #1
brad850csi
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Car Audio systems (aimed at Jukka mainly :))



Thoughts?

I do think that the B&O system we have as an option is a bit of a brand bash more than anything else (but maybe I'm just jealous as I don't have it) but I couldn't pretend to be an expert on the topic.
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SCOTT26 "So as an admirer of the M5 and a potential customer of an M5 Touring. I would run naked around the streets of Garching if they were to offer one."
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      06-26-2019, 09:31 AM   #2
Cincinnatus
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An interesting video, to be sure. Most things I agree with in principle, others are vague.

For example, I would not use Bluetooth as a source. At best, it's CD quality, at worst... well, it sucks. Not using as a minimum high bitstream MP3s, FLAC or MQA from the car's local source is a flaw in the testing protocol. From one car to the next, the DAC (Digital to Analog Converter) can be the difference between an otherwise outstanding system, and one that - seemingly - just downright sucks.

Let's start with the basic premise that audio reproduction is a challenge even under the best of circumstances. Here are a couple clarifications I'd make to put this video into perspective:
  • Speakers are, IMO, the weakest link in the chain. However, the audio reproduction system is, in fact, a chain. GI=GO (garbage in equals garbage out). Adding outstanding speakers to a lousy amp or noisy source defeats the purpose, in fact it can exacerbate the flaws.
  • More (clean) power is better than less because as volume increases, distortion does also - more power means the amp doesn't have to work as hard at any given listening level (SPL), and is capable of passing more detail at lower listening levels, resulting in a better, less fatiguing listening experience. So power really is important, if it's done right.
  • More speakers can be better because you're able to segment the frequencies and disperse the reproduction in the car to fill in 'holes'. It's why you find (usually) a woofer, midrange and tweeter. They are sized according to the frequencies the are designed to reproduce. A tweeter near your ass is not going to be as effective as higher up where it can be more directional.
  • Seating in a car is never going to give the same sort of 3-dimensional image as you can find in a home. At least not without corrections (DSP), however anything done to the passenger side is going to effect the driver's side and having glass all over the car is an audio designer's nightmare.
  • Latency/Decay (phase) is not quite as critical in a car as it is at home due to the (much) shorter distances involved. If you're that discerning, you ought to not be thinking about listening to music in a car in the first place because nothing will be the same as your Dagastino Relentless Monoblocks and matching speakers.

I know there are some who trash the B&O system, especially its performance relative to the asking price. I do, however, definitely agree with the (discredited) practice of licensing of a name and slapping a badge on the system to fetch a disproportionate markup. How many people out there have been listening to a crappy system thinking it's great because it has such-and-such a name on it?

On the whole, I find the B&O system to be very capable. Not perfect, mind you, but capable. Perhaps one day I'll change the drivers, but for now, I'm perfectly content.

This might be of interest.


Is there some marketing fuckery here? Sure. Is it overpriced? Perhaps. Is there a premium for the brand name and fancy aluminum grills? No doubt. But it's still a very nice system.

Perspective is important. We're talking about a 100K+ car, and "high end" audio is often overpriced because of the cache attached to the various brand names. But those brands have earned the right to set a premium. Have a look at www.audiogon.com to see how the other half lives and then you'll know what expensive really is. But on the whole, I'm very happy with the system.
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      06-26-2019, 05:58 PM   #3
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NAIM, Focal, Bowers, & Burmeister (IMO) are on the higher quality as opposed to Bose, HK, and now B&O. Five years ago, B&O was on point. Not anymore. Too many car manf's they're in bed with -- figured the quality of product would drop at some point.

The day Devialet puts its audio systems in cars -- I will rejoice.
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      06-28-2019, 09:43 PM   #4
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Great video, and makes lots of relevant comments about sound quality and car audio... What I was left missing is thoughts and advice beyond OEM upgrades - sad reality is that most of these are just attempts to improve a lower cost system with more of everything, not really fixing the key issue - improve quality of key components. As often is the case, less is more if executed well - it’s easier to deliver a 2-channel source at balanced high quality via 6 speakers than via 16 - with a multi-speaker setup various compromises will need to be made (unless you spend some unholy amounts of money), and then the only available option is to try and fix using software. All the various “modes” in so called surround systems only decrease the original signal quality, in some isolated cases it may sound “clearer” or “airier” than the lower cost system, but that doesn’t mean better in absolute terms. In my mind, absolute terms mean how the music/instruments produce sound without any manipulation.

Then there is the question about volume... Again, high cost OEM upgrades talk about “1000 watts” or more power - this means nothing in itself. Unfortunately this usually means either combined rated max speaker power handling capacity, or the multi-channel amp’s theoretic power output - without any consideration of how much distortion the system produces at those power output levels... Where power is needed is in low frequency response, particularly in a car where all other noises (road, engine, wind etc) create a challenging environment. In 99.9% of situations almost any amp creates sufficient output for high and mid range, creating a decent sound (in theory) provided the speakers (usually the weakest link in any system) are high quality (for the particular car) and well installed. But for lower end, most amps just run out of steam, and usually the multi-channel “intelligent” sound processors dial up lower mid frequencies to compensate. Also at lower listening volumes other noises “hide” the lack of what I would call punch... It’s not easy to get it right, even to a half decent levels, but an experienced audio installer can find ways to compensate some of the shortcomings, and the more simple you keep the setup, the easier it is to achieve this (not to mention cost).

So, here is my recommendation: Start with high quality (2-channel, as the source is inevitably 2-channel) digital outputs from the head unit, without any artificial corrections (EQ, bass, treble etc). Use a high quality DSP, and as high quality speakers as your budget allows, and do not compromise on installation (speakers) quality. For M6 (F13 and F06 - I don’t have experience of F12, but the fabric/open roof creates even more challenges in general) front speakers are the key, rear speakers don’t really add sound quality, but if you occasionally have rear seat passengers, you may want to consider upgrading them as well. Then, depending your taste for low frequency response and requirements for volume, you will need a sub. The under seat woofers are no subs, and the OEM elements are only ok for modest sound volumes. And naturally, you need amp/s - either a high power multi-channel, or separate for a sub and other speakers, min 6+1 channels - and some intelligence in the form of a DSP. This is what you use to adjust the digital signal per channel to deliver optimal outcome.

This may sound complex, and in a way it is. But at the end of the day, this is not your typical DIY job, but rather something you leave for someone who truly knows what they are doing (tip: not your BMW service advisor, usually ��). But end result can be pretty extraordinary, and compared to an OEM upgrade almost always cheaper. As an example, in AUS the B&O (or in new M5 B&W) upgrade is appr. $6-8k min investment, my current after market upgrade including all gear, installation and tune was in the range of $5-6k (included custom sub)...
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