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      08-20-2021, 08:40 PM   #1
ericjay56
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Is this dealership trying to screw me?

Hi all,

I'm in the market for an F13 M6, found one locally (2016, ~35k miles). Got the PPI done by a reputable shop, and the car needs some work. According to the shop, it's nothing major. BUT, they said that this is where the concern lies:

"Remove and replace exhaust side bank 2 camshaft position sensor, clear faults and test drive to confirm no further issues. This is the first step- may have deeper issue that will need further diagnosis."

The Nissan dealership that has the car agreed to either:
-fix the issues themselves (HELL no)
-reduce the price of the car by the cost of these repairs

Of course, they did not agree to pay for the service at the third party shop. They do not want to be on the hook if the car reveals to have more issues once further diagnosis is done.

My questions: How big of a risk would I be taking if I got the car with this issue? Should I just walk away from the deal? I am the farthest thing from a mechanic, so I'm not sure how serious this is. Also, it is so difficult to find a newer M6 Coupe! Seems like all the later years, they were GCs.....

Service bill for the repairs and the PPI report are attached. Take care guys, thanks in advance for any responses!

-Eric
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File Type: pdf service estimate.pdf (64.7 KB, 50 views)
File Type: pdf HP Scan0113.pdf (4.33 MB, 39 views)
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      08-20-2021, 09:22 PM   #2
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Im always concerned when cars like this end up at the dealer. Unless a trade in, it was likely from an auction. Can you confirm how they got it?

I would feel more comfortable if a private owner with records or a bmw dealer (however since over 4 years old they wouldnt hold it.

My 2 cents
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      08-20-2021, 09:35 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikerx5 View Post
Im always concerned when cars like this end up at the dealer. Unless a trade in, it was likely from an auction. Can you confirm how they got it?

I would feel more comfortable if a private owner with records or a bmw dealer (however since over 4 years old they wouldnt hold it.

My 2 cents
They were pretty vague when I asked them this question, so I wouldn't doubt it. And yes, I'd highly prefer from an individual or BMW dealership, but easier said than done! I'm not having much luck with the hunt for a lower mileage coupe.
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      08-21-2021, 12:22 AM   #4
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Get the cost from that shop, ask to lower a price for that cost, get a car, fix it, drive it.
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      08-21-2021, 01:20 AM   #5
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I think they're working with you to give the price of the repairs. If you really want it I'd take that option.
My friend was a manager at a Nissan dealer and they attempted to work on some power steering issues in his SL550, did not turn out well.
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      08-21-2021, 01:29 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by jjasonSU View Post
I think they're working with you to give the price of the repairs. If you really want it I'd take that option.
My friend was a manager at a Nissan dealer and they attempted to work on some power steering issues in his SL550, did not turn out well.
They did offer to pay for the repairs, but there still needs to be another diagnosis afterwards. The chances are slim (according to third party) that there's something additionally wrong, but there still is a chance. That's the whole gamble.
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      08-21-2021, 02:54 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericjay56 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjasonSU View Post
I think they're working with you to give the price of the repairs. If you really want it I'd take that option.
My friend was a manager at a Nissan dealer and they attempted to work on some power steering issues in his SL550, did not turn out well.
They did offer to pay for the repairs, but there still needs to be another diagnosis afterwards. The chances are slim (according to third party) that there's something additionally wrong, but there still is a chance. That's the whole gamble.
Walk away!
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      08-21-2021, 01:09 PM   #8
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Walk away and look for another M6 from a private seller/enthusiast that has done all the regular maintenance or a BMW dealer. I would not trust M6 from any other dealer as they buy these in auctions cheap and that means they have been poorly maintained.
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      08-21-2021, 03:50 PM   #9
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I'd walk... I'm looking for an M6 in the same price range and I am actually in the luxury car sales business. I sell Jags and Land Rovers and I'd say this: if a high end car like this ends up at a non-lux dealer... it can be a red flag. Unless they bought a Titan Platinum Reserve, a loaded Armada or a GT-R I'd be concerned.
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      08-21-2021, 05:42 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by JDMSteven View Post
I'd walk... I'm looking for an M6 in the same price range and I am actually in the luxury car sales business. I sell Jags and Land Rovers and I'd say this: if a high end car like this ends up at a non-lux dealer... it can be a red flag. Unless they bought a Titan Platinum Reserve, a loaded Armada or a GT-R I'd be concerned.

Right, it's definitely a valid point. However, all of the car's servicing was done at BMW dealerships. The car looks excellent on paper, but it's still frightening.
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      08-21-2021, 07:59 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikerx5 View Post
Im always concerned when cars like this end up at the dealer. Unless a trade in, it was likely from an auction. Can you confirm how they got it?

I would feel more comfortable if a private owner with records or a bmw dealer (however since over 4 years old they wouldnt hold it.

My 2 cents
Auction doesn't mean a bad apple, on the contrary you might get best deals in auction!!

Numerous dealers if not most of them, when in needs for space for new arrivals, They try to send some of their inventory to auction, simply the same when you get a piece of fancy brand apparel on discount.
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      08-22-2021, 06:20 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlBowlly View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikerx5 View Post
Im always concerned when cars like this end up at the dealer. Unless a trade in, it was likely from an auction. Can you confirm how they got it?

I would feel more comfortable if a private owner with records or a bmw dealer (however since over 4 years old they wouldnt hold it.

My 2 cents
Auction doesn't mean a bad apple, on the contrary you might get best deals in auction!!

Numerous dealers if not most of them, when in needs for space for new arrivals, They try to send some of their inventory to auction, simply the same when you get a piece of fancy brand apparel on discount.
Makes sense - I was referring to the paper trail / car history
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      08-22-2021, 04:01 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericjay56 View Post
Right, it's definitely a valid point. However, all of the car's servicing was done at BMW dealerships. The car looks excellent on paper, but it's still frightening.
Uncertainty can't be eliminated in a used car purchase, and of course that is one reason used car prices are lower than new cars (in most cases). If you are risk-averse then you can buy insurance or a service contract to help limit your liability. Many forum members have done that, myself included. These cars are trading hands at one-third to one-half MSRP nowadays, but there's no similar discount on parts and service. It's easy to feel nervous about everything that could happen, but I would not let that concern drive you to speculation that will not advance your decision to buy or pass. Just try to think about the price and the risk you can accept, try to make both as low as possible, and proceed accordingly.

Your PPI turned up a few issues, including four missing valve stem caps. I suppose there were nice caps and someone removed them? But any dealer would have the standard plastic ones around. It raises questions that they didn't bother to put some one. Had the dealer noticed and disclosed the leaking transmission and oil filter seals? The feel you have from those interactions is one sign of trustworthiness. What is PA's used car warranty law? In some states the seller has to warrant the car for some period, eg, one month. That would be plenty of time to have the known issues fixed and check for more. You may be able to find out some of the service history of this car by providing the VIN to a BMW dealership, too.

If you decide to proceed, my inclination would be to take a discount and have your own shop do the repairs. The M6 is better in the hands of specialists.
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      08-22-2021, 06:51 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Mandrake View Post
Uncertainty can't be eliminated in a used car purchase, and of course that is one reason used car prices are lower than new cars (in most cases). If you are risk-averse then you can buy insurance or a service contract to help limit your liability. Many forum members have done that, myself included. These cars are trading hands at one-third to one-half MSRP nowadays, but there's no similar discount on parts and service. It's easy to feel nervous about everything that could happen, but I would not let that concern drive you to speculation that will not advance your decision to buy or pass. Just try to think about the price and the risk you can accept, try to make both as low as possible, and proceed accordingly.

Your PPI turned up a few issues, including four missing valve stem caps. I suppose there were nice caps and someone removed them? But any dealer would have the standard plastic ones around. It raises questions that they didn't bother to put some one. Had the dealer noticed and disclosed the leaking transmission and oil filter seals? The feel you have from those interactions is one sign of trustworthiness. What is PA's used car warranty law? In some states the seller has to warrant the car for some period, eg, one month. That would be plenty of time to have the known issues fixed and check for more. You may be able to find out some of the service history of this car by providing the VIN to a BMW dealership, too.

If you decide to proceed, my inclination would be to take a discount and have your own shop do the repairs. The M6 is better in the hands of specialists.

I really appreciate this response, thank you! The dealership did not disclose any of these issues beforehand. In my opinion, they were just unaware. The car has only been with them for about two weeks. The car's VIN was ran by a friend at a BMW dealership: no real concerns on service history. Will absolutely look into the used car laws + insurance options, as you recommended.
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      08-22-2021, 09:46 PM   #15
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It's entirely possible the dealer was unaware. You're talking about an unusual car from a brand they don't represent during a time of very tight inventory. Certainly possible. Probably does not matter that much, either, unless you see red flags. If you do, then run the other way and wait for a different car.

Just to be clear about this line of thinking, what you really want to know is the car's future and guessing about that based on dealer behavior is not reliable. Everyone does it, but it is not reliable. The logic is that if the dealer knows something about past use or issues then that would illuminate future outcomes. Thus, if you trust the dealer then you believe they would tell you whatever they expect about the future of the vehicle, which you would then factor into your decision. The most generous dealers will comp you some repairs, but no dealer will guarantee a vehicle indefinitely. At some point, you own your car and that's that.

You are correct to observe that there are not so many low/lower mileage coupes. Not many made in the first place. If you see a car you love, I'd try to make it work. You like the maintenance history, the miles, and everything on paper, right? If so, negotiate on price, buy an exclusionary warranty, and enjoy the car.

Check autotrader and other used car sites for pricing and alternatives, too. And do prepare for some expenses. My SA tossed out the figure of $1K-$2K per year in care and feeding. I have not spent that much; many have spent more. Figure that regular cars are nickels and dimes; the M6 is fifties and hundreds. Basic cars need four quarts of basic oil; the M6 needs nine quarts of special oil...nothing about these cars is cheap but if you drive it and love it like so many of us do then you're not going to care.
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      08-22-2021, 10:13 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Mandrake View Post
It's entirely possible the dealer was unaware. You're talking about an unusual car from a brand they don't represent during a time of very tight inventory. Certainly possible. Probably does not matter that much, either, unless you see red flags. If you do, then run the other way and wait for a different car.

Just to be clear about this line of thinking, what you really want to know is the car's future and guessing about that based on dealer behavior is not reliable. Everyone does it, but it is not reliable. The logic is that if the dealer knows something about past use or issues then that would illuminate future outcomes. Thus, if you trust the dealer then you believe they would tell you whatever they expect about the future of the vehicle, which you would then factor into your decision. The most generous dealers will comp you some repairs, but no dealer will guarantee a vehicle indefinitely. At some point, you own your car and that's that.

You are correct to observe that there are not so many low/lower mileage coupes. Not many made in the first place. If you see a car you love, I'd try to make it work. You like the maintenance history, the miles, and everything on paper, right? If so, negotiate on price, buy an exclusionary warranty, and enjoy the car.

Check autotrader and other used car sites for pricing and alternatives, too. And do prepare for some expenses. My SA tossed out the figure of $1K-$2K per year in care and feeding. I have not spent that much; many have spent more. Figure that regular cars are nickels and dimes; the M6 is fifties and hundreds. Basic cars need four quarts of basic oil; the M6 needs nine quarts of special oil...nothing about these cars is cheap but if you drive it and love it like so many of us do then you're not going to care.
Yes I made sure to be realistic with maintenance costs; my budget is fine with them. I am ready for this car! I like what you said; you do the best due diligence you can, but ultimately the ship will have to leave the port. Thanks again.
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      08-23-2021, 12:10 AM   #17
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Probably, I do agree with a guy few answers above. Do you try to guess a future and get from a dealer coverage for that?

I am just thinking, so you see a car, assume you like it, you did check it and it looks good. You did PPI, it says a repair is needed, the cost is X.

Then, if your dealer agrees to make a deal as price of a car Y - X = Z and you like that Z amount, take it and fix.

A car might get a failed injector or hpfp in a week or month after you bought it, wouldn't you then claim a dealer for a discount before a purchase to cover that potential accident??? 😂
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      08-23-2021, 10:58 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericjay56 View Post
Hi all,

I'm in the market for an F13 M6, found one locally (2016, ~35k miles). Got the PPI done by a reputable shop, and the car needs some work. According to the shop, it's nothing major. BUT, they said that this is where the concern lies:

"Remove and replace exhaust side bank 2 camshaft position sensor, clear faults and test drive to confirm no further issues. This is the first step- may have deeper issue that will need further diagnosis."

The Nissan dealership that has the car agreed to either:
-fix the issues themselves (HELL no)
-reduce the price of the car by the cost of these repairs

Of course, they did not agree to pay for the service at the third party shop. They do not want to be on the hook if the car reveals to have more issues once further diagnosis is done.

My questions: How big of a risk would I be taking if I got the car with this issue? Should I just walk away from the deal? I am the farthest thing from a mechanic, so I'm not sure how serious this is. Also, it is so difficult to find a newer M6 Coupe! Seems like all the later years, they were GCs.....

Service bill for the repairs and the PPI report are attached. Take care guys, thanks in advance for any responses!

-Eric

OP I have a 2018 M6 Coupe convertible that I will be turning in at the end of the lease (end of September). Alpine White with Individual Amaro Brown interior, B&O system. The car will have ~13k miles. If you are interested I will PM you the name of the dealer I work with so you can make direct contact. The car has been exclusively serviced at this dealer.
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      08-27-2021, 11:28 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikerx5 View Post
Im always concerned when cars like this end up at the dealer. Unless a trade in, it was likely from an auction. Can you confirm how they got it?

I would feel more comfortable if a private owner with records or a bmw dealer (however since over 4 years old they wouldnt hold it.

My 2 cents
Most cars come from an auction that a dealership has in its inventory. There's nothin wrong with it at all if it's from a non-insurance auction (Manheim, Odessa, etc). Since it's a franchise dealership (Nissan in this case) there's no chance they would buy form insurance/salvage auctions.
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      08-27-2021, 01:13 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akshaya View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikerx5 View Post
Im always concerned when cars like this end up at the dealer. Unless a trade in, it was likely from an auction. Can you confirm how they got it?

I would feel more comfortable if a private owner with records or a bmw dealer (however since over 4 years old they wouldnt hold it.

My 2 cents
Most cars come from an auction that a dealership has in its inventory. There's nothin wrong with it at all if it's from a non-insurance auction (Manheim, Odessa, etc). Since it's a franchise dealership (Nissan in this case) there's no chance they would buy form insurance/salvage auctions.
Right. What I was referring to is buying a specialized, technical edition like an M from a non BMW dealer. If I am buying prenowned I would prefer BMW techs to give it the inspection than a Nissan tech. And I would also prefer OEM parts, installed perfectly. My 2 cents
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      09-10-2021, 10:30 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBG View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericjay56 View Post
Hi all,

I'm in the market for an F13 M6, found one locally (2016, ~35k miles). Got the PPI done by a reputable shop, and the car needs some work. According to the shop, it's nothing major. BUT, they said that this is where the concern lies:

"Remove and replace exhaust side bank 2 camshaft position sensor, clear faults and test drive to confirm no further issues. This is the first step- may have deeper issue that will need further diagnosis."

The Nissan dealership that has the car agreed to either:
-fix the issues themselves (HELL no)
-reduce the price of the car by the cost of these repairs

Of course, they did not agree to pay for the service at the third party shop. They do not want to be on the hook if the car reveals to have more issues once further diagnosis is done.

My questions: How big of a risk would I be taking if I got the car with this issue? Should I just walk away from the deal? I am the farthest thing from a mechanic, so I'm not sure how serious this is. Also, it is so difficult to find a newer M6 Coupe! Seems like all the later years, they were GCs.....

Service bill for the repairs and the PPI report are attached. Take care guys, thanks in advance for any responses!

-Eric

OP I have a 2018 M6 Coupe convertible that I will be turning in at the end of the lease (end of September). Alpine White with Individual Amaro Brown interior, B&O system. The car will have ~13k miles. If you are interested I will PM you the name of the dealer I work with so you can make direct contact. The car has been exclusively serviced at this dealer.
I wouldn't mind a PM regarding this vehicle. I'd check it out online and see what the dealership is selling it for.
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