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      02-15-2024, 02:55 AM   #23
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Saving for a 2025 M2 MT, the last of an era.
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      02-15-2024, 06:20 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No one View Post
Enthusiasts of what? An automatic transmission is extracting performance and chasing tenths of a second instead of you. You're just a passenger carried fast. It's like they bake a cake for you and eat it to save you the effort (they make a fast car that goes fast without your involvement).
The enthusiasts are not buying manuals in enough quantities to keep most manufacturers making them.
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      02-15-2024, 07:11 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCCA1 View Post
I'm simply saying their current line-up does not lend itself to a manual-transmission car. You can't blame lack of "take" for manuals for killing them off if you don't offer them in anything but real "M" cars. For years manuals were the standard transmission and the autos the option. Then came cell phones, Starbucks, and other things that used up all your hands while driving.

I have made my living selling BMWs since 1976, so I think I do know more about it than many currently at BMW. The right car with a manual is a great car. BMW hasn't had their hearts in the manual since around 2011. The F10 with a manual was an ergonomic disaster. But if you look at the current value of any older BMW stick compared to the same car in an automatic, the difference is stunning. The secondary market for used BMW sticks has been the same as the secondary market for BMW Tourings (wagons) and yet BMW continues to prove that we don't want wagons by bringing in only the M5 in a wagon. That is some self-fulfilling prophecy in which they stack the deck to prove their point. They did this when the E36/5 (318ti) came out and said they were discontinuing it because of poor sales saying Americans just don't buy high-line hatchbacks, when in its lasts full year of production it outsold the combination of all the 3 and 5-series wagons imported. And look at the MINI sales back then, and it's nothing more than a high-line hatchback.

Maybe their stick sales are too poor to continue it, but what I'm saying is don't blame the transmission until you do some sole-searching and see if BMW ever gave the stick a fighting chance by offering it in cars other than the M2/3/4.

When you think back over the BMW models that came ONLY in stick, there are some real winners: M1, 1M, E30 M3, M635Csi/M6, Z8 (non-Alpina), and the first three generations of the M5. So what do you think has changed since then?
I've got to say I agree with you about the ergonomics, it's obvious that the automatic was given priority when it came to cockpit ergonomics. I had an E30, then an E46 both manual and now a manual E92 and the shifter is furthest away in the E92 and I kind of miss how it felt to drive the E46, it was much more 'sporty'.


The other point raised about Euro emissions standards killing them is also true and something I buy into as quite a large reason why manuals haven't been getting huge development over the last decade or so.

But the manufacturers will never come out and openly say that the EU's emissions laws are why they're no longer offering a manual because they'll look like they don't care about the environment. So it's easier (and also true) for them to say that the sales numbers are the reason.

I remember watching a Jason Cammisa video on a manual porsche some time ago and he said the gearing had to be stupidly long to pass a noise test at a certain speed or something like that!

So everything from the cars not suiting manuals, to emissions and legislation are all valid points and contribute together to its sad decline.
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      02-15-2024, 07:34 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCCA1 View Post
I'm simply saying their current line-up does not lend itself to a manual-transmission car. You can't blame lack of "take" for manuals for killing them off if you don't offer them in anything but real "M" cars.
There you go again.
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      02-15-2024, 07:46 AM   #27
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Quote:
However, during a recent interview with Italian publication Quattroruote, Frank Weber said “it’s over” for the brand’s manual models, noting that the sales figures for them don’t justify the development costs.
This is a complete lie. BMW doesn't even make their own manual transmission, and the ZF that they use has been largely unchanged for many years. The tech for clutches and the associated bits is the same way, and the DME programming is a joke.

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Weber did not specify an exact date for when BMW will axe all of its manual options but it could be soon with him adding, “If you want a manual M, you need to buy it now.”
Pure fear mongering hype.

Quote:
“They are fun products, but let’s be honest, the volumes are getting smaller and smaller, and so it doesn’t make sense to develop them anymore,” he said.
I suppose he's forgetting that it's "fun" that makes a car special, and in an age where everyone is going to be commuting in self-driving toasters a manual M-Car makes even more sense.

If BMW kills the manual, they'll bring it back just as fast. Like halo cars, it's not about the cost or the sales, it's about brand image, and I don't think BMW wants to be your average toaster like everyone else.
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      02-15-2024, 08:47 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisanoblueZ4 View Post
The enthusiasts are not buying manuals in enough quantities to keep most manufacturers making them.
But that's the problem, there isn't enough enthusiasts left who can afford some of these cars. In general there are still plenty of automotive enthusiasts but the ones with the buying power are dwindling quickly.
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      02-15-2024, 09:18 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCCA1 View Post
When you think back over the BMW models that came ONLY in stick, there are some real winners: M1, 1M, E30 M3, M635Csi/M6, Z8 (non-Alpina), and the first three generations of the M5. So what do you think has changed since then?
You forgot the Z3M/Z4M on your manual only list
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      02-15-2024, 11:41 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malteser_wfj View Post
I've got to say I agree with you about the ergonomics, it's obvious that the automatic was given priority when it came to cockpit ergonomics. I had an E30, then an E46 both manual and now a manual E92 and the shifter is furthest away in the E92 and I kind of miss how it felt to drive the E46, it was much more 'sporty'.


The other point raised about Euro emissions standards killing them is also true and something I buy into as quite a large reason why manuals haven't been getting huge development over the last decade or so.

But the manufacturers will never come out and openly say that the EU's emissions laws are why they're no longer offering a manual because they'll look like they don't care about the environment. So it's easier (and also true) for them to say that the sales numbers are the reason.

I remember watching a Jason Cammisa video on a manual porsche some time ago and he said the gearing had to be stupidly long to pass a noise test at a certain speed or something like that!

So everything from the cars not suiting manuals, to emissions and legislation are all valid points and contribute together to its sad decline.
Exactly the reason why new GT3RS doesn’t come in manual. It wouldn’t pass emissions as a result. There are things manufacturers know but will never admit openly. Business is to big to risk unnecessary repercussions from governing body.
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      02-15-2024, 11:43 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///MPhatic View Post
I suppose he's forgetting that it's "fun" that makes a car special, and in an age where everyone is going to be commuting in self-driving toasters a manual M-Car makes even more sense.

If BMW kills the manual, they'll bring it back just as fast. Like halo cars, it's not about the cost or the sales, it's about brand image, and I don't think BMW wants to be your average toaster like everyone else.
What’s current BMW’s halo car ?
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      02-15-2024, 11:49 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisanoblueZ4 View Post
The enthusiasts are not buying manuals in enough quantities to keep most manufacturers making them.
I did my part
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      02-15-2024, 02:23 PM   #33
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Look how much fun you are going to miss if you don't drive a manual car. Some OP are kept saying manual gear box is slower. Yes, that is true but speed is not everything Fun start at 10 sec of the video clip.

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      02-15-2024, 02:28 PM   #34
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My G82 6 speeds in action
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      02-15-2024, 03:18 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XMetal View Post
You forgot the Z3M/Z4M on your manual only list
There are plenty of others not on my short list. It was not intended to be all-inclusive. How far back do you want to go?
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      02-15-2024, 09:09 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisanoblueZ4 View Post
The enthusiasts are not buying manuals in enough quantities to keep most manufacturers making them.
Mean while, GR Corolla, GR Yaris, GR86, Civic Type R all equipped with 6MT are sold out in most parts of the world

The ones calling the shots are not enthusiats is why they want to kill off the 6MT. Not hecause there is no market but because they don’t want to create a market for the MT. This is because even though there are profits to be made, the profits are less than if they ditch the 6MT and focus on something else

BMW is no longer a brand for the enthusiast, the writing has been on the wall since the launch of the G platform
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      02-16-2024, 01:47 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DB_Cooper View Post


Frank Weber, a key member of BMW’s board, says the writing is on the wall for the brand’s manual transmissions and that includes its enthusiast-oriented M models.
Frank Weber can fuck off. BMW M hasn’t been enthusiast oriented since 2013. Manual trans was the last gasp for air
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      02-16-2024, 07:29 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
BMW is no longer a brand for the enthusiast, the writing has been on the wall since the launch of the G platform
That might be debatable. I would agree that it's certainly less for the "classic" enthusiast. There are still some folks do love their M3's and such and drive them pretty hard.
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      02-16-2024, 05:14 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No one View Post
Enthusiasts of what? An automatic transmission is extracting performance and chasing tenths of a second instead of you. You're just a passenger carried fast. It's like they bake a cake for you and eat it to save you the effort (they make a fast car that goes fast without your involvement).
So well said. I was bored in the c8 after an hour. My C7 provides me thrilling excitement all the time. It’s just that connected feeling you can’t beat
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      02-18-2024, 08:35 AM   #40
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Unfortunately, the writing has been on the wall for a long time. Most people just don't want manuals anymore. Fricking Gen Zers don't even want cars or a drivers license!

Thank you BMW for sticking with manuals as long as you have!
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      02-26-2024, 10:43 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eliphil View Post
So well said. I was bored in the c8 after an hour. My C7 provides me thrilling excitement all the time. It’s just that connected feeling you can’t beat
I miss my C7 and can’t wait to get the Z4 so that I can roll thru gears again. The C8 going auto is why I won’t even consider it.
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      02-26-2024, 02:29 PM   #42
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There’s another factor: the quality of automatic and dual-clutch transmissions has improved enormously in recent decades.

My first car had a three speed Turbo Hydramatic transmission. It was smooth. The car was very thirsty. There was no manual transmission available for it, and it was moot for me anyway.

For each of my next several cars, the manual transmission version that I purchased was better in every way, other than convenience, than the automatic transmission version: more reliable, faster acceleration even for someone with average stick skills, much better gas mileage, etc. Oh, yes, also less expensive, and more fun.

My two most recent cars, both BMWs, have had the ZF 8 speed automatic perforce. It blows out of the water all the automatic transmissions available in all the manual cars that I previously owned.

I briefly considered buying a ‘24 Golf R. Had I done so, I was torn on whether to get the manual or the dual-clutch, since the latter is very good and actually a bit faster than the manual.

Soon enough, electric cars will supplant ICE cars, unless some other technology comes along to upend everything. Enjoy the manual transmissions while they last. But if you have to get a BMW with an automatic, at least you’ll get a high quality one.
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      02-26-2024, 04:18 PM   #43
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Ya, every now and then we have threads like this and ofc everyone's different bla bla bla, but just like exhaust sound, many ppl overexaggerate the importance of MT, like it's the only thing that matters, when there are many other things that are as much or even more important when one is driving a sportscar. Any able-bodied person can drive a MT, don't make it sound like it's a crazy skill, and I bet if there's a hidden cam in ppl's cars, lots of these supposedly 'amazing' drivers have horrible form and don't even know what they're doing most of the time.
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      02-26-2024, 06:36 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
just like exhaust sound
No, I won't. Nor the smell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
many ppl overexaggerate the importance of MT, like it's the only thing that matters
Many people downplay the importance of MT because it is a thing that matters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
there are many other things that are as much or even more important when one is driving a sportscar.
There are many other things that are as much or even more important than whether one is driving a sportscar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
Any able-bodied person can drive a MT
Many disable-bodied can drive an AT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
don't make it sound like it's a crazy skill
Just choose a MT!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
if there's a hidden cam in ppl's cars
You won't want to see what AT drivers do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
lots of these supposedly 'amazing' drivers have horrible form and don't even know what they're doing most of the time.
This is what made them choose AT.
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