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      05-04-2020, 07:14 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Advevo View Post
Ok thru sedan but

If you make cars bigger that means more metal, bigger carpet, wider seats, more glass etc etc.

Add lightness begins by making smaller and nimbler cars and not make every new model bigger.

M2 is bigger again then the 1m coupe. The 1m size was perfect size to start with and from that you start to make that size lighter. No BMW makes a new car M2 bigger heavier add even heavier brakes and put a carbon roof in. Please that's just plain stupid and brings norhing.
You have to understand and consider that BMW isn't producing niche automobiles. BMW is producing vehicles that have to attract a wider range of buyers. The size of the 1M or even the M2 isn't adequate for everybody. It surely isn't for me. BMW is a volume manufacturer.
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      05-04-2020, 07:16 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by vasi_M3 View Post
How many people that have been reviewing cars recently honestly think they need more power? I think BMW is missing the mark if they're not looking for a different path forward with their M cars.

Let's make lighter cars from the factory and put an end to this BS aftermarket infatuation with carbon fiber parts. BMW should set a goal to make a 3000-3100 lb car.
If Lotus can make a 6 cylinder car with forced induction with a ton of "enthusiast" appeal why can't they do it? even if its a bit a of stripper trim...who cares...
The CF infatuation won't end. Thinking that any factory can offset the tuner market is a pipe dream. People buy Ferrari's and high end Porsche's and still seek the aftermarket. It'll never end.

If Porsche can barely get a 2-seater GT3 to 3200 lbs. (...which is a low volume seller for Porsche) and the McLaren 720 is around 3200 lbs., what makes you think it would be easy for BMW to get a passenger car to that point? A Pagani Zonda is tipping on 3000 lbs. I think you guys need to be more realistic.
+1

People don't realize how hard it is to decrease weight in a modern car, while keeping the cost reasonable for its target demographic. Sure, the M2 could be made out of carbon fiber, but the cost and maintenance will be astronomical.

Not to mention all the new safety features, which not only includes the electronics, but also the various structural components that absorb the force and crumples in the predicted manner.

If you want lightness, look at the great ND Miata. But also know it compromises on pure power, not to mention how skinny the tires are. One key reason Mazda designers did not want to increase power is due to weight. In fact, the Japanese Mazda designers actually wanted the 1.5L to be standard, instead of adding a 2.0L. And lastly, look at the interior quality of the Miata. To get the weight down, the materials cannot be compared in terms of luxury feel of a BMW (read: not saying Miata quantity is poor).

I'm being optimist and hope even if BMW could get the next gen to 3400 - 3500 lbs, that would be a miracle.
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      05-04-2020, 07:33 PM   #47
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I agree. I still remember reading a review back in 2001 between E39 M5, E55 ( I think) and few others. M5 was the slowest in the bunch in straight line but it was the best drivers car and won.
You're misremembering the test. The E39 M5 was the fastest production sedan available when it came out. Here's a link to the Car and Driver test you're thinking about: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a15140702/2000-bmw-m5-vs-2000-mercedes-benz-e55-amg-2000-jaguar-xjr-comparison-test/

The M5 was significantly faster than its competition. I bought one and had it for 15 years. Great car; incredible when it was announced. Still incredible today.

Here's a quote from the article:
"How do you characterize a roomy four-door, leather-lined luxury capsule that can keep up with a C5 Corvette? All the way to 150 mph! With quarter-mile performance of 13.3 seconds at 108 mph, let's just call it the fastest production sedan on the planet.

But the new M5 is more than a tire shredding drag racer (the traction control occasionally cuts in during a hard three-four shift over bumpy pavement—at 110 mph!). It stopped from 70 mph in the shortest span (156 feet), it performed emergency-lane-change maneuver successfully at the highest speed (66.2 mph), and it tied for the best cornering grip at 0.90 g. The M5 is simply a remarkably well-rounded performance machine.
"
It was a different test and there were either 4 out 5 cars. But I do remember M5 wasn't the fastest in that group test.

TBH it was 20 years ago and it really doesn't matter anymore.
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      05-04-2020, 08:35 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
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Originally Posted by elitex View Post
I agree. I still remember reading a review back in 2001 between E39 M5, E55 ( I think) and few others. M5 was the slowest in the bunch in straight line but it was the best drivers car and won.
You're misremembering the test. The E39 M5 was the fastest production sedan available when it came out. Here's a link to the Car and Driver test you're thinking about: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a15140702/2000-bmw-m5-vs-2000-mercedes-benz-e55-amg-2000-jaguar-xjr-comparison-test/

The M5 was significantly faster than its competition. I bought one and had it for 15 years. Great car; incredible when it was announced. Still incredible today.

Here's a quote from the article:
"How do you characterize a roomy four-door, leather-lined luxury capsule that can keep up with a C5 Corvette? All the way to 150 mph! With quarter-mile performance of 13.3 seconds at 108 mph, let's just call it the fastest production sedan on the planet.

But the new M5 is more than a tire shredding drag racer (the traction control occasionally cuts in during a hard three-four shift over bumpy pavement—at 110 mph!). It stopped from 70 mph in the shortest span (156 feet), it performed emergency-lane-change maneuver successfully at the highest speed (66.2 mph), and it tied for the best cornering grip at 0.90 g. The M5 is simply a remarkably well-rounded performance machine.
"
Found it. I was off on the years a bit. It was 2003 not 2001.


https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...mparison-test/
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      05-04-2020, 08:38 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by elitex View Post
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Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
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Originally Posted by elitex View Post
I agree. I still remember reading a review back in 2001 between E39 M5, E55 ( I think) and few others. M5 was the slowest in the bunch in straight line but it was the best drivers car and won.
You're misremembering the test. The E39 M5 was the fastest production sedan available when it came out. Here's a link to the Car and Driver test you're thinking about: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a15140702/2000-bmw-m5-vs-2000-mercedes-benz-e55-amg-2000-jaguar-xjr-comparison-test/

The M5 was significantly faster than its competition. I bought one and had it for 15 years. Great car; incredible when it was announced. Still incredible today.

Here's a quote from the article:
"How do you characterize a roomy four-door, leather-lined luxury capsule that can keep up with a C5 Corvette? All the way to 150 mph! With quarter-mile performance of 13.3 seconds at 108 mph, let's just call it the fastest production sedan on the planet.

But the new M5 is more than a tire shredding drag racer (the traction control occasionally cuts in during a hard three-four shift over bumpy pavement—at 110 mph!). It stopped from 70 mph in the shortest span (156 feet), it performed emergency-lane-change maneuver successfully at the highest speed (66.2 mph), and it tied for the best cornering grip at 0.90 g. The M5 is simply a remarkably well-rounded performance machine.
"
Found it. I was off on the years a bit. It was 2003 not 2001.


https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...mparison-test/
God I miss those days...
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      05-04-2020, 08:41 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by jstein55 View Post
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Originally Posted by elitex View Post
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Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by elitex View Post
I agree. I still remember reading a review back in 2001 between E39 M5, E55 ( I think) and few others. M5 was the slowest in the bunch in straight line but it was the best drivers car and won.
You're misremembering the test. The E39 M5 was the fastest production sedan available when it came out. Here's a link to the Car and Driver test you're thinking about: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a15140702/2000-bmw-m5-vs-2000-mercedes-benz-e55-amg-2000-jaguar-xjr-comparison-test/

The M5 was significantly faster than its competition. I bought one and had it for 15 years. Great car; incredible when it was announced. Still incredible today.

Here's a quote from the article:
"How do you characterize a roomy four-door, leather-lined luxury capsule that can keep up with a C5 Corvette? All the way to 150 mph! With quarter-mile performance of 13.3 seconds at 108 mph, let's just call it the fastest production sedan on the planet.

But the new M5 is more than a tire shredding drag racer (the traction control occasionally cuts in during a hard three-four shift over bumpy pavement—at 110 mph!). It stopped from 70 mph in the shortest span (156 feet), it performed emergency-lane-change maneuver successfully at the highest speed (66.2 mph), and it tied for the best cornering grip at 0.90 g. The M5 is simply a remarkably well-rounded performance machine.
"
Found it. I was off on the years a bit. It was 2003 not 2001.


https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...mparison-test/
God I miss those days...
I could only dream of owning an M car in those days. Just out of high school and enjoying life.
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      05-04-2020, 08:49 PM   #51
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We are the last saving grace for the MT over here in the U.S. Hopefully people continue to buy them. I think the MT offering is what still sets BMW apart from the competition.
..Realy hoping the initial release of the M3 will be 6MT and not a delayed later edition, please release at the onset... ha ... hoping...
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      05-04-2020, 08:51 PM   #52
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I'm sorry but 50% of BMW's now wear an ///M badge????

I knew they are watering the ///M brand down but 50% is ridiculous. Worse part 90% of the population doesn't know the difference between an M3 and a m sport package.

I really miss the days of one or two flavors, limited colors and knowing you had the best because it had the badge...
If I have the luxary of getting my first "true M" M4, I look forward to ordering it debadged.
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      05-04-2020, 08:51 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
We are the last saving grace for the MT over here in the U.S. Hopefully people continue to buy them. I think the MT offering is what still sets BMW apart from the competition.
[COLOR="SeaGreen"]..Realy hoping the initial release of the M3 will be 6MT and not a delayed later edition, please release at the onset... ha ... hoping...[/COLOR]
We've already seen spy shots of nearly production ready 6MT G80's. I think we can be fairly certain the 6MT will be available at launch.
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      05-04-2020, 08:52 PM   #54
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Nice to see him mention the 500 MLE

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      05-04-2020, 08:56 PM   #55
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Read: 2021 Testla Roadster
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      05-04-2020, 08:57 PM   #56
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I want his job 😁
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      05-04-2020, 09:10 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
If you want more control, buy a 6MT!!!

Sincerely,

The [6MT] Police
Perfect timing!

TBH, I find I have more control (and engagement) with the M-DCT than a 6MT, but each to their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
It's not just the transmission. It's power/torque under the curve and engine characteristics. The transmission isn't nearly as big a factor as how the motor builds power.
I have a strong suspicion, based on the X3M, that the next generation of M3 will have a power curve that is designed to work with an auto box that shifts really frequently to keep the boost up and the revs in a small range.

Let's hope they haven't compromised your 6MT experience. (you're certainly going to need a faster wrist action! )
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      05-04-2020, 09:10 PM   #58
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206% increase in M sales......is that because every series brands "other M models" maybe? X1 M235ix FTW Give me a break! Were more M3, M4, M5 & M6 models sold, because now there's an M2 & M8 and the plenty other abominations that have m logos everywhere. So in other words no shit more M models were sold. I don't take this as the brand appealing to more/new buyers as much as an M flood that dilutes the nomenclature.
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      05-04-2020, 09:13 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbar View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
If you want more control, buy a 6MT!!!

Sincerely,

The [6MT] Police
Perfect timing!

TBH, I find I have more control (and engagement) with the M-DCT than a 6MT, but each to their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
It's not just the transmission. It's power/torque under the curve and engine characteristics. The transmission isn't nearly as big a factor as how the motor builds power.
I have a strong suspicion, based on the X3M, that the next generation of M3 will have a power curve that is designed to work with an auto box that shifts really frequently to keep the boost up and the revs in a small range.

Let's hope they haven't compromised your 6MT experience. (you're certainly going to need a faster wrist action! )
I don't know how you could objectively have more control with transmission that can shift for you versus one that won't.

It won't impact my manual experience. The new car won't be any worse than the F8X, and I love my F8X.
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      05-04-2020, 09:22 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbar View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
If you want more control, buy a 6MT!!!

Sincerely,

The [6MT] Police
Perfect timing!

TBH, I find I have more control (and engagement) with the M-DCT than a 6MT, but each to their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
It's not just the transmission. It's power/torque under the curve and engine characteristics. The transmission isn't nearly as big a factor as how the motor builds power.
I have a strong suspicion, based on the X3M, that the next generation of M3 will have a power curve that is designed to work with an auto box that shifts really frequently to keep the boost up and the revs in a small range.

Let's hope they haven't compromised your 6MT experience. (you're certainly going to need a faster wrist action! )
I don't know how you could objectively have more control with transmission that can shift for you versus one that won't.

It won't impact my manual experience. The new car won't be any worse than the F8X, and I love my F8X.
Don't count on it not bring worse.

The grill is Terrible and the auto will shift when it thinks it should rather then when you want it to.

The new M3 will be no different to an Audi RS5 - except the interior will be much lower quality.
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      05-04-2020, 09:54 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drgmt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbar View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
If you want more control, buy a 6MT!!!

Sincerely,

The [6MT] Police
Perfect timing!

TBH, I find I have more control (and engagement) with the M-DCT than a 6MT, but each to their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
It's not just the transmission. It's power/torque under the curve and engine characteristics. The transmission isn't nearly as big a factor as how the motor builds power.
I have a strong suspicion, based on the X3M, that the next generation of M3 will have a power curve that is designed to work with an auto box that shifts really frequently to keep the boost up and the revs in a small range.

Let's hope they haven't compromised your 6MT experience. (you're certainly going to need a faster wrist action! )
I don't know how you could objectively have more control with transmission that can shift for you versus one that won't.

It won't impact my manual experience. The new car won't be any worse than the F8X, and I love my F8X.
Don't count on it not bring worse.

The grill is Terrible and the auto will shift when it thinks it should rather then when you want it to.

The new M3 will be no different to an Audi RS5 - except the interior will be much lower quality.
I don't hate the grille and I'll be buying a manual. I would never own an auto or DCT enthusiast-mobile. In twenty years of driving BMW's and BMW M's, I have never once disliked the newer car, so BMW has the benefit of the doubt coming from me.
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      05-04-2020, 09:58 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by drgmt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbar View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
If you want more control, buy a 6MT!!!

Sincerely,

The [6MT] Police
Perfect timing!

TBH, I find I have more control (and engagement) with the M-DCT than a 6MT, but each to their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
It's not just the transmission. It's power/torque under the curve and engine characteristics. The transmission isn't nearly as big a factor as how the motor builds power.
I have a strong suspicion, based on the X3M, that the next generation of M3 will have a power curve that is designed to work with an auto box that shifts really frequently to keep the boost up and the revs in a small range.

Let's hope they haven't compromised your 6MT experience. (you're certainly going to need a faster wrist action! )
I don't know how you could objectively have more control with transmission that can shift for you versus one that won't.

It won't impact my manual experience. The new car won't be any worse than the F8X, and I love my F8X.
Don't count on it not bring worse.

The grill is Terrible and the auto will shift when it thinks it should rather then when you want it to.

The new M3 will be no different to an Audi RS5 - except the interior will be much lower quality.
I don't hate the grille and I'll be buying a manual. I would never own an auto or DCT enthusiast-mobile. In twenty years of driving BMW's and BMW M's, I have never once disliked the newer car, so BMW has the benefit of the doubt coming from me.
Yeah if was to buy one, it would be a manual.

This will be my last though.
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      05-04-2020, 10:00 PM   #63
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Instead of slapping 35 different ///M badges on most of the fleet, why not develop a large displacement naturally aspirated motor and get back to the beginning principles of the ///M division?

Else it's off to the Porsche GT division!
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      05-04-2020, 10:09 PM   #64
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Instead of slapping 35 different ///M badges on most of the fleet, why not develop a large displacement naturally aspirated motor and get back to the beginning principles of the ///M division?

Else it's off to the Porsche GT division!
Looks like it's off to Porsche's GT division then because what you want is a thing of the past. Rennlist is waiting for you.
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      05-04-2020, 10:12 PM   #65
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Instead of slapping 35 different ///M badges on most of the fleet, why not develop a large displacement naturally aspirated motor and get back to the beginning principles of the ///M division?

Else it's off to the Porsche GT division!
Because it makes no business sense with the market BMW is targeting...

Now take a look at Lotus to go back to the essence of the previous Ms. But you also have to accept the higher cost and reliability/quality issues that comes with it.

And I think most people would gladly jump to Porsche if it can deliver at a reasonable (read: BMW) price range. If you have the funds and are willing to pay the Porsche tax, than I would encourage you to run and not walk to the Porsche GT department. Taking relative cost aside, they do offer better driving experience than BMW.
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      05-04-2020, 10:14 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bemo View Post
Instead of slapping 35 different ///M badges on most of the fleet, why not develop a large displacement naturally aspirated motor and get back to the beginning principles of the ///M division?

Else it's off to the Porsche GT division!
Looks like it's off to Porsche's GT division then because what you want is a thing of the past. Rennlist is waiting for you.
Already half way there but still enjoying the LRPE and hoping that Munich gets its act together.
Farty turbos are fun but the old ///M guard knows better!
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