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      05-05-2020, 12:20 PM   #111
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Electric motors are making HP moot.

When the current Tesla Model 3 can dust a M4 under the most typical operating conditions (hint, it's not track sessions) it seems rather obvious that range becomes the new measure of performance.
If that were the case none of us would buy ///M cars and we would all be driving Tesla's.
Clearly there are additional reasons to HP.

Imagine IF Tesla sold the Model 3 with a similar level of options which are available from other luxury automakers.

It's no secret that only a small percentage of M-cars are regularly tracked anyways. This is a very small segment. These individuals aren't any more loyal to the brand vs the rest.
What options might those be? The Tesla is already tech porn for people who have to have the latest/greatest tech. The interior is decent; comparable to a 3 Series. Tesla's aren't new. For all of us driving M's, we could've opted for a Model S years ago.......but we didn't. For me personally there is something missing from the motoring experience when it comes to EV's. Well, at least where Tesla is concerned. The Porsche Taycan is compelling, but I wouldn't choose it over an MT GT2/GT3 variant.

I fully expect a hybrid ///M to debut at some point, and as long as there's still an MT option I'll be open to it. The moment the MT is gone is the moment I stop buying BMW's.
Other options? Basically everything available under BMW Individual.

Interior/Exterior colors
Trim pieces
Leather grades and colors, etc.


Tesla is extremely limited in this regard.
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      05-05-2020, 12:22 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Electric motors are making HP moot.

When the current Tesla Model 3 can dust a M4 under the most typical operating conditions (hint, it's not track sessions) it seems rather obvious that range becomes the new measure of performance.
If that were the case none of us would buy ///M cars and we would all be driving Tesla's.
Clearly there are additional reasons to HP.

Imagine IF Tesla sold the Model 3 with a similar level of options which are available from other luxury automakers.

It's no secret that only a small percentage of M-cars are regularly tracked anyways. This is a very small segment. These individuals aren't any more loyal to the brand vs the rest.
What options might those be? The Tesla is already tech porn for people who have to have the latest/greatest tech. The interior is decent; comparable to a 3 Series. Tesla's aren't new. For all of us driving M's, we could've opted for a Model S years ago.......but we didn't. For me personally there is something missing from the motoring experience when it comes to EV's. Well, at least where Tesla is concerned. The Porsche Taycan is compelling, but I wouldn't choose it over an MT GT2/GT3 variant.

I fully expect a hybrid ///M to debut at some point, and as long as there's still an MT option I'll be open to it. The moment the MT is gone is the moment I stop buying BMW's.
Other options? Basically everything available under BMW Individual.

Interior/Exterior colors
Trim pieces
Leather grades and colors, etc.


Tesla is extremely limited in this regard.
Uhhhh! The average person buys straight off of the lot. Very few go the route of BMW Individual. So again, what options?!?
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      05-05-2020, 12:25 PM   #113
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Lots of regular non enthusiasts would probably mistake a X3 M40i for a real M car, but every owner knows they don't own a real M car.

This is funny because my friend just recently purchased a X3 M40i and believe me he had no idea what the M stands for. He did not know about the M heritage. All he knew was that he bought a BMW X3. He thought that the car was just named an X3 M40i, hysterical. So yeah you are right he now knows what M stands for (I explained) and knows that his X3 M40i is not an M car.
Don't all the German luxury makes do this?

Basically your friend bought what we would've called a X3 40i w/M-sport pkg.

Just a change in name. :
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      05-05-2020, 12:26 PM   #114
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Enjoy whatever car you are driving believe me 90% of the population doesn't care.
You're so right, I have to constantly justify to people what an M car is and you can tell by their expression, that they regret they even asked. Most laymens just see another BMW and nothing more or less.

Like I was with my mom yesterday, in her new Honda Accord and her first question to me was "why do all BMWs make that loud popping noise, from the exhaust."

She didn't differentiate both variants of vehicle; M or standard model, just lumped all "BMWs" together as an asshole-mobile and that's unfortunately how the general populace sees them.

M or not to M is only a debate, on these recess of the internet.
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      05-05-2020, 12:28 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Electric motors are making HP moot.

When the current Tesla Model 3 can dust a M4 under the most typical operating conditions (hint, it's not track sessions) it seems rather obvious that range becomes the new measure of performance.
If that were the case none of us would buy ///M cars and we would all be driving Tesla's.
Clearly there are additional reasons to HP.

Imagine IF Tesla sold the Model 3 with a similar level of options which are available from other luxury automakers.

It's no secret that only a small percentage of M-cars are regularly tracked anyways. This is a very small segment. These individuals aren't any more loyal to the brand vs the rest.
What options might those be? The Tesla is already tech porn for people who have to have the latest/greatest tech. The interior is decent; comparable to a 3 Series. Tesla's aren't new. For all of us driving M's, we could've opted for a Model S years ago.......but we didn't. For me personally there is something missing from the motoring experience when it comes to EV's. Well, at least where Tesla is concerned. The Porsche Taycan is compelling, but I wouldn't choose it over an MT GT2/GT3 variant.

I fully expect a hybrid ///M to debut at some point, and as long as there's still an MT option I'll be open to it. The moment the MT is gone is the moment I stop buying BMW's.
Other options? Basically everything available under BMW Individual.

Interior/Exterior colors
Trim pieces
Leather grades and colors, etc.


Tesla is extremely limited in this regard.
Uhhhh! The average person buys straight off of the lot. Very few go the route of BMW Individual. So again, what options?!?
We're not talking the avg buyer.

We're talking the average M-buyer.

In any case there were always packages which themselves are pulled from BMW Individual program (Wheels) or the Motoraports bin (Brakes,CCB). Again, Tesla is limited.

Oh and you wouldn't need a Model S. You could buy the Model 3.
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      05-05-2020, 12:32 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
What options might those be? The Tesla is already tech porn for people who have to have the latest/greatest tech. The interior is decent; comparable to a 3 Series. Tesla's aren't new. For all of us driving M's, we could've opted for a Model S years ago.......but we didn't. For me personally there is something missing from the motoring experience when it comes to EV's. Well, at least where Tesla is concerned. The Porsche Taycan is compelling, but I wouldn't choose it over an MT GT2/GT3 variant.

I fully expect a hybrid ///M to debut at some point, and as long as there's still an MT option I'll be open to it. The moment the MT is gone is the moment I stop buying BMW's.
The reason I plan to buy a M4 with 6MT in 2021. Perhaps it will be the last generation
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      05-05-2020, 12:36 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Electric motors are making HP moot.

When the current Tesla Model 3 can dust a M4 under the most typical operating conditions (hint, it's not track sessions) it seems rather obvious that range becomes the new measure of performance.
If that were the case none of us would buy ///M cars and we would all be driving Tesla's.
Clearly there are additional reasons to HP.

Imagine IF Tesla sold the Model 3 with a similar level of options which are available from other luxury automakers.

It's no secret that only a small percentage of M-cars are regularly tracked anyways. This is a very small segment. These individuals aren't any more loyal to the brand vs the rest.
What options might those be? The Tesla is already tech porn for people who have to have the latest/greatest tech. The interior is decent; comparable to a 3 Series. Tesla's aren't new. For all of us driving M's, we could've opted for a Model S years ago.......but we didn't. For me personally there is something missing from the motoring experience when it comes to EV's. Well, at least where Tesla is concerned. The Porsche Taycan is compelling, but I wouldn't choose it over an MT GT2/GT3 variant.

I fully expect a hybrid ///M to debut at some point, and as long as there's still an MT option I'll be open to it. The moment the MT is gone is the moment I stop buying BMW's.
Other options? Basically everything available under BMW Individual.

Interior/Exterior colors
Trim pieces
Leather grades and colors, etc.


Tesla is extremely limited in this regard.
Uhhhh! The average person buys straight off of the lot. Very few go the route of BMW Individual. So again, what options?!?
We're not talking the avg buyer.

We're talking the average M-buyer.
....but the average M buyer is not looking at a Model 3, which was the Tesla model originally referenced. So outline your criteria for discussion more specifically. Furthermore, I know you're suffering from what I call "Bubble Vision" from being on the forums, but your average M buyer doesn't go Individual either.
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      05-05-2020, 12:38 PM   #118
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We both think alike but unfortunately, my bank account is not keeping up with my lofty ambitions..

I'm trying to branch off into expanding my knowledge of Porsches but I can't seem find an APP as condensed as Bimmerpost.

Also, forgive me if I'm wrong but from what I understand, the only manual GT3 Porsche offers is the "Touring" version, so the third pedal seems to be drying up, in all fronts, not just the BMW brand..
The 992 S is the entry 911 with 7MT option but for a mortal like me... the $115k starting is tough... and I'd like to get a bicycle in it not on it
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      05-05-2020, 12:42 PM   #119
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I quite like it. I've never had an issue with BMW MT's. I don't know where the comments stem from, but when it comes to feel it's hard to tell another person they are wrong when the subject matter is highly subjective.

Everybody holds the S2000 MT in high regard, but I have never liked the feel of it. It felt overly mechanical to me; akin to the difference in feel between a Harbor Freight ratchet and a Snap-On ratchet. I like the smoothness of the BMW MT.
For what it's worth I love the feel of my Accord Coupe's 6MT....
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      05-05-2020, 12:45 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
I quite like it. I've never had an issue with BMW MT's. I don't know where the comments stem from, but when it comes to feel it's hard to tell another person they are wrong when the subject matter is highly subjective.

Everybody holds the S2000 MT in high regard, but I have never liked the feel of it. It felt overly mechanical to me; akin to the difference in feel between a Harbor Freight ratchet and a Snap-On ratchet. I like the smoothness of the BMW MT.
[COLOR="Green"]For what it's worth I love the feel of my Accord Coupe's 6MT....[/COLOR]
I liked my Honda Civic manuals back in the day.
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      05-05-2020, 12:48 PM   #121
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Did you read what I posted earlier? A GT3 is 3200 lbs.; a GT4 is 3000 pounds. There's NO UTILITY in either car. Porsche sells those cars at a low volume; they are a niche car company. BMW IS NOT. BMW cannot produce a passenger car at GT4 weight, and surely not without charging Porsche prices or beyond. You are high!

If a Lotus worked for you, you'd already be driving one. If a Porsche worked for you, you'd be driving one of those too.
Why the bitter tone man , you make yourself look like a bitch ass fanboy? I actually sold the F80 M3 and drove both an Evora and 911. Since I donít have kids both cars are practical enough and for the price the Evora is a good fit. Iíll probably end up graduating to a GT car at some point, just have to see where the car maker goes. I donít have any brand affinity and to me itís about whether a product is compelling or not.
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      05-05-2020, 12:51 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Did you read what I posted earlier? A GT3 is 3200 lbs.; a GT4 is 3000 pounds. There's NO UTILITY in either car. Porsche sells those cars at a low volume; they are a niche car company. BMW IS NOT. BMW cannot produce a passenger car at GT4 weight, and surely not without charging Porsche prices or beyond. You are high!

If a Lotus worked for you, you'd already be driving one. If a Porsche worked for you, you'd be driving one of those too.
Why the bitter tone man , you make yourself look like a bitch ass fanboy? I actually sold the F80 M3 and drove both an Evora and 911. Since I don't have kids both cars are practical enough and for the price the Evora is a good fit. I'll probably end up graduating to a GT car at some point, just have to see where the car maker goes. I don't have any brand affinity and to me it's about whether a product is compelling or not.
Intonation is lost in text. Relax Mr. Defensive. Nobody is bitter. My question was a sincere one.


P.S. You might want to check the definition of a "fanboy". Outlining simple business decisions are not a component of fanboyism.
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      05-05-2020, 12:52 PM   #123
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Electric motors are making HP moot.

When the current Tesla Model 3 can dust a M4 under the most typical operating conditions (hint, it's not track sessions) it seems rather obvious that range becomes the new measure of performance.
If that were the case none of us would buy ///M cars and we would all be driving Tesla's.
Clearly there are additional reasons to HP.

Imagine IF Tesla sold the Model 3 with a similar level of options which are available from other luxury automakers.

It's no secret that only a small percentage of M-cars are regularly tracked anyways. This is a very small segment. These individuals aren't any more loyal to the brand vs the rest.
What options might those be? The Tesla is already tech porn for people who have to have the latest/greatest tech. The interior is decent; comparable to a 3 Series. Tesla's aren't new. For all of us driving M's, we could've opted for a Model S years ago.......but we didn't. For me personally there is something missing from the motoring experience when it comes to EV's. Well, at least where Tesla is concerned. The Porsche Taycan is compelling, but I wouldn't choose it over an MT GT2/GT3 variant.

I fully expect a hybrid ///M to debut at some point, and as long as there's still an MT option I'll be open to it. The moment the MT is gone is the moment I stop buying BMW's.
Other options? Basically everything available under BMW Individual.

Interior/Exterior colors
Trim pieces
Leather grades and colors, etc.


Tesla is extremely limited in this regard.
Uhhhh! The average person buys straight off of the lot. Very few go the route of BMW Individual. So again, what options?!?
We're not talking the avg buyer.

We're talking the average M-buyer.
....but the average M buyer is not looking at a Model 3, which was the Tesla model originally referenced. So outline your criteria for discussion more specifically. Furthermore, I know you're suffering from what I call "Bubble Vision" from being on the forums, but your average M buyer doesn't go Individual either.
You know that a typical M3/M5 buyer won't cross shop a Model 3P / Model S ?
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      05-05-2020, 12:53 PM   #124
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I'm trying to branch off into expanding my knowledge of Porsches but I can't seem find an APP as condensed as Bimmerpost.
My attempt at Porsche online learning was a frustrating failure. Please share if you find any great sites.
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      05-05-2020, 12:53 PM   #125
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I liked my Honda Civic manuals back in the day.
I picked up the swan song 2017 Accord coupe in 6MT, it's no BMW but enjoy driving it. My 6MT 1995 Prelude... wish I bought a few of those and had them in a garage ha ha!
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      05-05-2020, 01:03 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Electric motors are making HP moot.

When the current Tesla Model 3 can dust a M4 under the most typical operating conditions (hint, it's not track sessions) it seems rather obvious that range becomes the new measure of performance.
If that were the case none of us would buy ///M cars and we would all be driving Tesla's.
Clearly there are additional reasons to HP.

Imagine IF Tesla sold the Model 3 with a similar level of options which are available from other luxury automakers.

It's no secret that only a small percentage of M-cars are regularly tracked anyways. This is a very small segment. These individuals aren't any more loyal to the brand vs the rest.
What options might those be? The Tesla is already tech porn for people who have to have the latest/greatest tech. The interior is decent; comparable to a 3 Series. Tesla's aren't new. For all of us driving M's, we could've opted for a Model S years ago.......but we didn't. For me personally there is something missing from the motoring experience when it comes to EV's. Well, at least where Tesla is concerned. The Porsche Taycan is compelling, but I wouldn't choose it over an MT GT2/GT3 variant.

I fully expect a hybrid ///M to debut at some point, and as long as there's still an MT option I'll be open to it. The moment the MT is gone is the moment I stop buying BMW's.
Other options? Basically everything available under BMW Individual.

Interior/Exterior colors
Trim pieces
Leather grades and colors, etc.


Tesla is extremely limited in this regard.
Uhhhh! The average person buys straight off of the lot. Very few go the route of BMW Individual. So again, what options?!?
We're not talking the avg buyer.

We're talking the average M-buyer.
....but the average M buyer is not looking at a Model 3, which was the Tesla model originally referenced. So outline your criteria for discussion more specifically. Furthermore, I know you're suffering from what I call "Bubble Vision" from being on the forums, but your average M buyer doesn't go Individual either.
You know that a typical M3/M5 buyer won't cross shop a Model 3 / Model S ?
Generally speaking, someone gunning for a Tesla has already made up their mind that they want a premium EV and that they want a Tesla. By and large, the average Tesla buyer has already digested the Elon Kool-Aid and are sold on the more grand utopian picture. Buying anything other than the Tesla would present a gross philosophical conundrum. All it takes is to listen to non-enthusiast Tesla owners or would-be Tesla owners (...or even enthusiasts who love Tesla) talk to understand where I'm coming from.

With regards to the enthusiast......

.....sure, the enthusiast might cross-shop, if for no other reason than mere curiosity (...like the white dude who wants to smash a black chick just to see what it's like, but he's not planning to actually date her and bring her home to mother; or conversely, the white chick who wants to smash a black dude because she heard the dick is good, but that's about as far as it's going). Some will cross shop with a genuine consideration based on the accolades of the Tesla. We already know that the enthusiast is a small population percentage. We are not the average. We are the outliers.
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      05-05-2020, 01:05 PM   #127
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I liked my Honda Civic manuals back in the day.
[COLOR="Green"]I picked up the swan song 2017 Accord coupe in 6MT, it's no BMW but enjoy driving it. My 6MT 1995 Prelude... wish I bought a few of those and had them in a garage ha ha![/COLOR]
The '95 Prelude was badass. I used to go test drive them all of the time, wishing I could actually buy one. I ended up with a Honda Civic HX. Lol!
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      05-05-2020, 01:18 PM   #128
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I'm sorry but 50% of BMW's now wear an ///M badge????

I knew they are watering the ///M brand down but 50% is ridiculous. Worse part 90% of the population doesn't know the difference between an M3 and a m sport package.

I really miss the days of one or two flavors, limited colors and knowing you had the best because it had the badge...
Especially when the m340i is faster than the e92 m3 lol.
My m235i is faster than a e92 m3 😂 but straight line speed isn't everything.
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      05-05-2020, 01:28 PM   #129
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The '95 Prelude was badass. I used to go test drive them all of the time, wishing I could actually buy one. I ended up with a Honda Civic HX. Lol!
I had a 1983 Civic S 5MT... that was a fun little hatch. Started my love affair with Hondas. Sad to see the Prelude... then S2000, then Accord coupes come to an end... now the Civic coupe is the last of it's Honda kind.
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      05-05-2020, 01:31 PM   #130
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The '95 Prelude was badass. I used to go test drive them all of the time, wishing I could actually buy one. I ended up with a Honda Civic HX. Lol!
[COLOR="SeaGreen"]I had a 1983 Civic S 5MT... that was a fun little hatch. Started my love affair with Hondas. Sad to see the Prelude... then S2000, then Accord coupes come to an end... now the Civic coupe is the last of it's Honda kind.[/COLOR]
Agreed! Talk about the changing face of a company. Honda has changed so much.
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      05-05-2020, 01:37 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
The '95 Prelude was badass. I used to go test drive them all of the time, wishing I could actually buy one. I ended up with a Honda Civic HX. Lol!
Oh wow. I used to do the same thing. I remember test driving Lexus Is300, 95 prelude, 99 prelude 99 maxima, 98 Accord V6 many times when I couldnít afford any of those cars without parents assistance.

I also test drove many Bmw and Mercedes models back in those days. Thatís what really started my interest in these cars and these dealers were more than happy to let me drive these cars.

Iíve bought and sold over 15 German cars over the last 8 years and many more to come. Partly because dealers let me test drive these cars and become an enthusiast at an early age.
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      05-05-2020, 03:07 PM   #132
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Oh wow. I used to do the same thing. I remember test driving Lexus Is300, 95 prelude, 99 prelude 99 maxima, 98 Accord V6 many times when I couldnít afford any of those cars without parents assistance.

I also test drove many Bmw and Mercedes models back in those days. Thatís what really started my interest in these cars and these dealers were more than happy to let me drive these cars.

Iíve bought and sold over 15 German cars over the last 8 years and many more to come. Partly because dealers let me test drive these cars and become an enthusiast at an early age.
I'll never forget in the 90's a more affluent friend of mine was buying an Audi and they just handed him the keys to test drive only after copying his license... I was amazed the associate did not join us on the ride, made me appreciate Audi when young for same reason you mention
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