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      05-07-2021, 01:43 AM   #1
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Toyota develops Hydrogen Fuel ICE

This I can get onboard with.

No heavy batteries, no long charge times, and the sounds and vibrations of an ICE nearly 0 emissions.

https://www.slashgear.com/toyota-bui...some-30671055/
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      05-07-2021, 02:10 AM   #2
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Sorry, but I do not see this winning over electric cars because we would need so much more infrastructure to support it.
It would be cool though.
      05-07-2021, 07:42 AM   #3
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I don’t see hydrogen as a solution either.
If anything I’m hoping synth gas has a future.
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      05-07-2021, 11:10 AM   #4
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Stupid idea.

It takes roughly 30% of the energy that H2 can produce to just compress it into a usable form, and that doesn't even account for electrolysis to get it. Then you need high pressure tanks all over the place, trucking fuel all over, digging up tanks, installing new tanks and pumps. Ships and pipelines that can carry it, etc. The infrastructure doesn't even exist, vs. electric that does actually exist and can be upgraded as battery capacity increases. Although the energy density of H2 by weight is great, by volume it's extremely poor and it shoots itself in the foot as far as aviation, because it requires giant heavy tanks that have to be able to withstand extreme pressure and not create hazards by themselves. Having to have a continuous tank vs. something that can have wing spars and ribs running through it is a huge limiting factor. It's still better than batteries at this point for aviation and batteries may never fulfil the mission there 100%, but in just about every other application, H2 is a huge waste of resources and time when that could be spent bettering the existing electrical infrastructure. Sure, there may be some niches where H2 makes sense, but it'll never really be more than that for anything on the ground IMO. The great thing about electric is that it doesn't care where the power comes from. Burn that H2 in a gas-turbine at the source to feed the grid.
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      05-07-2021, 12:52 PM   #5
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And Toyota seems to thin EVs are a dumb idea, since the mining and refinement of rare earth metals needed to make large EV batteries emits nearly as much CO2 as half the lifetime of a ICE. Then more CO2 to make the electricity to charge the battery (by burning coal, or natural gas). That's why Toyota doesn't have any EVs to offer. Are they wrong? Hmmm ...

I'm sort of with them on this. EV is not saving the planet, it simply shifts the CO2 blame down and up stream.

A H-tank doesn't take so long to fill, and if it gives you a ICE experience, I'd be all for it.
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      05-07-2021, 01:32 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
And Toyota seems to thin EVs are a dumb idea, since the mining and refinement of rare earth metals needed to make large EV batteries emits nearly as much CO2 as half the lifetime of a ICE. Then more CO2 to make the electricity to charge the battery (by burning coal, or natural gas). That's why Toyota doesn't have any EVs to offer. Are they wrong? Hmmm ...

I'm sort of with them on this. EV is not saving the planet, it simply shifts the CO2 blame down and up stream.

A H-tank doesn't take so long to fill, and if it gives you a ICE experience, I'd be all for it.
‘Whataboutism’ mixed with some mathematical strawman for good measure. The scale of damage caused by fossil fuel extraction and use is many many orders of magnitude more than mining issues. Yes, if this is their position, they are wrong. Toyota is literally the only one of hundreds of industrial manufacturers going against hedging development of EV technology. This makes it highly unlikely that they are "right". IMO, Toyota put a lot of resources towards H2 a long time ago and is trying to show some payoff for their development and R&D costs, the classic sunk cost issue.
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Last edited by JamesNoBrakes; 05-07-2021 at 01:41 PM..
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      05-07-2021, 03:17 PM   #7
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This could make sense some day in limited enthusiast applications. Not likely for a regular production car, but maybe some type of crate motor or after market solution.

The idea here may be that, if we are going to have a hydrogen infrastructure for certain applications - long haul trucking or heavy machinery, for example - why not come up with another creative application that allows us to enjoy combustion vehicles "guilt free" in some capacity? It's obviously very niche, but that doesn't mean there can never be a business case.

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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Toyota is literally the only one of hundreds of industrial manufacturers going against hedging development of EV technology.
I don't think that's strictly true. First, since words matter, its worth keeping in mind that an FCEV - which is what Toyota's Mirai is - is an EV. Second, while it is certainly true that Toyota has been averse to BEVs in particular in the past, they are beginning to see the writing on the wall there. And finally, they are not the only ones who think that hydrogen will play some role in our zero emissions future.
      05-07-2021, 03:22 PM   #8
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Astounded at the dissent in here. I think it brilliant, not stupid. Chasing something that is free in abundance to fuel and engine solves more problems than assuming battery tech will catch up and production of EV doesn't cause harm via lack of recycling and erosion issues. But who am I.....
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      05-07-2021, 03:28 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by fiveohwblow View Post
Astounded at the dissent in here. I think it brilliant, not stupid. Chasing something that is free in abundance to fuel and engine solves more problems than assuming battery tech will catch up and production of EV doesn't cause harm via lack of recycling and erosion issues. But who am I.....
The problem is the amount of energy required to produce hydrogen, and the safety concerns with using it. Its incredibly explosive when under pressure. (see: Hindenburg).

In an ideal world they'll figure out how to make electrolysis more efficient, and be able to make it small enough to fit on the car itself. Then you just fill up with some water and be on your way.

sadly, the amount of energy it takes to produce hydrogen using this method is about equal to its output.

So while I think options to keep ICE around are good, I just don't think this is going to pan out, unless some major breakthrough comes to pass.
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      05-07-2021, 04:14 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitm2 View Post
The problem is the amount of energy required to produce hydrogen, and the safety concerns with using it. Its incredibly explosive when under pressure. (see: Hindenburg).

In an ideal world they'll figure out how to make electrolysis more efficient, and be able to make it small enough to fit on the car itself. Then you just fill up with some water and be on your way.

sadly, the amount of energy it takes to produce hydrogen using this method is about equal to its output.

So while I think options to keep ICE around are good, I just don't think this is going to pan out, unless some major breakthrough comes to pass.
Electrolysis quite literally cannot be more efficient, it is what it is. Where you might be able to make some H2 though is when you have some kind of excess energy that would otherwise be wasted if not captured immediately. Like if you were over-producing for the electrical grid with windmills or solar for some reason. It still won't be efficient, but better than "letting it go". You won't get a lot of return for that and it'll just exist as a fringe production method in that respect. But yeah, the amount of energy to produce, then compress, and ultimately store/transport H2 is absolutely off the scales in terms of immense. It is absolutely not "free". While it exists bonded to oxygen, separating it and making it usable is a hell of a lot more energy intensive than cracking other hydrocarbons.
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      05-08-2021, 12:44 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Electrolysis quite literally cannot be more efficient, it is what it is. Where you might be able to make some H2 though is when you have some kind of excess energy that would otherwise be wasted if not captured immediately. Like if you were over-producing for the electrical grid with windmills or solar for some reason. It still won't be efficient, but better than "letting it go". You won't get a lot of return for that and it'll just exist as a fringe production method in that respect. But yeah, the amount of energy to produce, then compress, and ultimately store/transport H2 is absolutely off the scales in terms of immense. It is absolutely not "free". While it exists bonded to oxygen, separating it and making it usable is a hell of a lot more energy intensive than cracking other hydrocarbons.
Makes sense to use energy to "create" portable energy rather than digging up anything. We can find ways of producing more sustainable energy to have "excess energy".

This is progress. EVs and batteries are not the future, just a popular bandaid.
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      05-08-2021, 01:04 PM   #12
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But what's it's 0-60 bruh?

Need LUDICROUS.
      05-08-2021, 07:57 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShocknAwe View Post
Makes sense to use energy to "create" portable energy rather than digging up anything.
I'm sorry, but where do you think the energy will come from to make, compress, build the infrastructure, transportation and all the other costs for H2?

If you think that's all windmills...
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      05-08-2021, 08:19 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
I'm sorry, but where do you think the energy will come from to make, compress, build the infrastructure, transportation and all the other costs for H2?

If you think that's all windmills...
Well you are correct in that the US is effectively crippled with a 50+ year old shattered infrastructure held together with Velcro and dog shit.

Aside from that it is clear we are on opposite sides of the street.
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      05-08-2021, 09:40 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShocknAwe View Post
Well you are correct in that the US is effectively crippled with a 50+ year old shattered infrastructure held together with Velcro and dog shit.

Aside from that it is clear we are on opposite sides of the street.
That is your answer?
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      05-08-2021, 10:18 PM   #16
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Hydrogen isn't the answer. Storage, transport and simple generation make no sense.

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      05-10-2021, 03:09 PM   #17
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When did bimmerpost turn into soymilkpost?

EV and Hydrogen powered cars can suck it.
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      05-10-2021, 09:16 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
I donít see hydrogen as a solution either.
If anything Iím hoping synth gas has a future.

+1... Somehow they just gotta make it scale cheaply so they can reuse the existing infrastructure. Lots of algae producing bio fuels have been invented but none have had any traction.


I think there's still a long market for ICE but also heavy support for electrification side by side.
      05-10-2021, 09:35 PM   #19
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+1... Somehow they just gotta make it scale cheaply so they can reuse the existing infrastructure. Lots of algae producing bio fuels have been invented but none have had any traction.


I think there's still a long market for ICE but also heavy support for electrification side by side.
Bring it on, as long as it fills a tank from a pump, is injected into a cylinder, and exploded to generate work I don't care.
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      05-11-2021, 08:10 AM   #20
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Quote:
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When did bimmerpost turn into soymilkpost?

EV and Hydrogen powered cars can suck it.
Totally agree. But sine all electric options out there suck at driver engagement, why internally combust something that is clean instead?
      05-11-2021, 10:27 AM   #21
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Quote:
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Bring it on, as long as it exploded
You may get your wish with H2.
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      05-11-2021, 10:30 AM   #22
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Totally agree. But sine all electric options out there suck at driver engagement, why internally combust something that is clean instead?
Because you are extremely biased and subjective to claim that high performance EVs are no fun and it takes a lot more energy to make, compress, store and transport H2, which drives costs up and wastes energy that could be used elsewhere, like for water extraction/transport. It's only "clean" in the combustion process. You gotta look at the whole picture.
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