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      03-08-2019, 12:55 AM   #45
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I'm in the market for a M6 right now. It is amazing how many sellers don't get the depreciation! They are holding on to the cars and overpricing them like they are Appreciating in value! Some sellers get it though...ironically, they are the ones that are not typical BMW sellers.

Just look at the classifieds here. One seller who is a dealer and selling for someone else is listing a 2015 M6 with 19k miles for about 50K. Another private seller is listing his 2014 M6 with over 70k for about the same price!! Some may argue about options on the car, but it really doesn't make a huge difference on the used car market.

To put the depreciation in perspective, a 2013 M6 Coupe (same depreciation as GC BTW) with 60K miles is 23K wholesale (so even less on a trade). 2015's with the same mileage are upper 30's. Food for thought for anyone who is selling.
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      03-08-2019, 02:58 AM   #46
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This is a great discussion! I wish there was a bigger M6 population in Australia. All M6GCs combined there is 8 in total for sale in the whole country, 5 LCIs and 3 pre-LCIs.

Seemingly, the best deal LCI seems to be a Ď16 Comp Pack (ZCP in the US, but all AUS M6s were Comp from Ď16), asking price just under $120k (FX 0.7 to USD currently), with 20k kms (12.5k mls) - thatís depreciation of appr $180, or 60%, in 3 years - is that in line with the US cars? Mind you, this is an asking price by a private seller, and despite the ad says non negotiable, another $10k would come off if you show cash...

At the other end, a dealer selling a Ď17 for $172k asking price with only 4k kms, or a Ď15 Comp Pack modded with nearly $40k kms for $165k asking price, especially the latter is naturally wishful thinking...

The non-LCIs with appr. 40k kms are priced at around $120k, both Ď14 models, but with minor upgrade (called MY14.5 here), and a Ď13 model with 80k kms for $100k - and I donít remember when I have seen an M6GC advertised for much less than that - does that mean that the early model prices are beginning to plateau in this market? Naturally, these are asking prices, most private sellers, so a wholesale likely would be min 30% lower, and net trade-in another 10-15% under that...

Any thoughts from those who have done more research on a bigger market?
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      03-08-2019, 03:51 AM   #47
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All interesting info - thanks. I finally bought mine last month after watching for about 3 years - LOL. Private sale, 25k miles, 14, clean car fax, comp and exec, everything but ceramics for 46k - CA car and I am in MA. I looked far and wide but was interested in certain colors and packages so I am pleased... wholesale in New England area is around 42-44, but there are very few if any and my patience was wearing! Just my 2 cents as folks explore their options..

Side note, original asking was 52 and I just stood my ground.
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      03-08-2019, 08:28 AM   #48
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Well, personally the M5 and M6 are great because they're essentially super cars (albeit heavy) that look boring. I don't want to attract attention and an M5 only attracts positive attention as people who know what it is are generally excited to see a fan. A yellow corvette Z06 or Ferrari is going to attract unwanted attention from people as well as good and I don't want it.

Also, I think the e60 has the rod bearings tanking the value but also last V10 Balancing out good ones. the F10 sadly has weight against it. I'd assume it depreciates better than an e60 or the same.

If it makes you feel better my 2015 Audi S6 lost $20k In a year and a half this year. The M brand helps and Audi doesn't have it despite the S6 being an excellent car.

Just letting you know...no buyer of the E6x M5/6 or E9X M3 is "concerned" about rod bearings. And it's certainly not what's going to depreciate the value of the car.

We're at a lifecycle of these cars where it's ONLY hardcore enthusiasts are buying it. As such rod bearing fixes are well documented and importantly very competitive in pricing for a swap. Did you know it costs LESS than $3k to do a RB swap on a S65 in California? I'm talking about reputable shops like EAS and Ptech. So enthusiasts are seeing it as a maintenance item. In fact it costs less to do RBs than it would cost to buy a set of tires or brakes.

I have extensive research on the RB issues and all the ownership issues for the E series M3/5/6 cars. It is in the sweet spot of ownership today where all issues are documented with known remedies and competitive shop pricing and ample shop knowledge.

The good news with the S63 is that there is no known endemic issue for the powertrain. Sure there's one-off issues, and you're always going to get coolant and oil leaks with any turbo car...but there is no $20k blown motor or $10k blown transmission issues to worry about.
I'm jealous, it's $5k for bearings I'm in the Midwest but still, most say don't bother doing the job. Good advice or not, you don't see many with the job done here. Also, tires are $800 so it was cheap so trade offs are nice I guess.
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      03-08-2019, 10:45 AM   #49
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To put the depreciation in perspective, a 2013 M6 Coupe (same depreciation as GC BTW) with 60K miles is 23K wholesale (so even less on a trade). 2015's with the same mileage are upper 30's. Food for thought for anyone who is selling.
Overpriced? Perhaps not.

You can't reasonably compare wholesale price to retail. Most buyers don't have access to trade sources (Manheim). The 2013 M6 has a market price of mid- to upper-30's because that's what the market will bear, understandably with adjustments to that price for mileage, condition and options. If you factor that adjustment at roughly $300 per 1000 miles ($.30c per mile) the difference can be significantly more or less - 10k miles on the clock an swing the price $3000 either way.

The 2014 models are now where the 2013's were about this time last year, but the 13's have firmed up on price. I think you'll find depreciation will be decelerating as the price of the 8'er - especially the M8 becomes known and the M6 becomes an attractive, and by comparison affordable, alternative. Or so I hope. :-)

I also disagree with your observation that options don't matter. They most certainly do, especially for the kind of buyer looking for a car like this. Yes, the impact on price with regard to options isn't as significant as condition or price. But for someone who wants, say, the B&O system in the car, it's a deal-breaker for some sellers, an opportunity to command a higher selling price for others so equipped.

The difference in perception between whether or not an item is 'overpriced' or not is if you're the seller, or the buyer. But if I have what you want, and there's a dwindling supply of them, better to acquiesce and get it sooner, rather than later. Remember, there were only 2093 M6 Coupes shipped to North America for the entire production run.

Time will tell.

Last edited by Cincinnatus; 03-08-2019 at 05:05 PM..
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      03-08-2019, 03:58 PM   #50
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Let's not forget the i8... Sticker on this was what in the high 160s? 2015 MY are selling on autotrader for Sub 70k range.

Definitely a specialized car, but I would have thought it to hold its value much longer.
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      03-08-2019, 11:24 PM   #51
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Overpriced? Perhaps not.

You can't reasonably compare wholesale price to retail. Most buyers don't have access to trade sources (Manheim). The 2013 M6 has a market price of mid- to upper-30's because that's what the market will bear, understandably with adjustments to that price for mileage, condition and options. If you factor that adjustment at roughly $300 per 1000 miles ($.30c per mile) the difference can be significantly more or less - 10k miles on the clock an swing the price $3000 either way.

The 2014 models are now where the 2013's were about this time last year, but the 13's have firmed up on price. I think you'll find depreciation will be decelerating as the price of the 8'er - especially the M8 becomes known and the M6 becomes an attractive, and by comparison affordable, alternative. Or so I hope. :-)

I also disagree with your observation that options don't matter. They most certainly do, especially for the kind of buyer looking for a car like this. Yes, the impact on price with regard to options isn't as significant as condition or price. But for someone who wants, say, the B&O system in the car, it's a deal-breaker for some sellers, an opportunity to command a higher selling price for others so equipped.

The difference in perception between whether or not an item is 'overpriced' or not is if you're the seller, or the buyer. But if I have what you want, and there's a dwindling supply of them, better to acquiesce and get it sooner, rather than later. Remember, there were only 2093 M6 Coupes shipped to North America for the entire production run.

Time will tell.
Wholesale prices are absolutely relevant. Retail prices are based on wholesale prices. In general, retail prices are 10 to 20% over wholesale prices depending on the car, condition, Market, Etc. I don't agree with you that wholesale prices are irrelevant.

In a buyer's market, options do not play as big of a role in price fluctuation. They do play a role in make or break deals though. Obviously if a car is optioned out and has an MSRP of 20,000 more, of course the used car price will be adjusted higher. But in a car that's already dropped 70%, that same car would only be worth about three thousand more.
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      03-09-2019, 10:26 AM   #52
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Wholesale prices are absolutely relevant. Retail prices are based on wholesale prices. In general, retail prices are 10 to 20% over wholesale prices depending on the car, condition, Market, Etc. I don't agree with you that wholesale prices are irrelevant.
They're irrelevant for those who don't have wholesale dealer credentials, and wholesale is at least in large measure driven by what the retail market will pay. No dealer bringing in a car for trade will offer a value in excess of what he thinks he can sell it for himself (read: retail street price drives the offer) or can flip it out to auction, and that's again derived by what retail prices command.

My point is that it's not the one-sided equation that you imply.
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      03-11-2019, 12:47 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Cincinnatus View Post
They're irrelevant for those who don't have wholesale dealer credentials, and wholesale is at least in large measure driven by what the retail market will pay. No dealer bringing in a car for trade will offer a value in excess of what he thinks he can sell it for himself (read: retail street price drives the offer) or can flip it out to auction, and that's again derived by what retail prices command.

My point is that it's not the one-sided equation that you imply.
I think we are saying similar things. But it's the Chicken or the Egg. Retail does dictate demand, which leads to lower wholesale prices. It is impossible to track every retail purchase, but it is very easy to track a large quantity of wholesale purchases. So we can track what the actual retail price should be in real time and what the trends look like. We can also predict what the price should be next month and next year.

This is what Manheim MMR is for. KBB and Edmunds play off of Manheim to a certain extent (KBB seems to be months behind).
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      03-11-2019, 12:54 AM   #54
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All interesting info - thanks. I finally bought mine last month after watching for about 3 years - LOL. Private sale, 25k miles, 14, clean car fax, comp and exec, everything but ceramics for 46k - CA car and I am in MA. I looked far and wide but was interested in certain colors and packages so I am pleased... wholesale in New England area is around 42-44, but there are very few if any and my patience was wearing! Just my 2 cents as folks explore their options..

Side note, original asking was 52 and I just stood my ground.
You absolutely got a hell of a deal.
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      03-11-2019, 03:32 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by mikerx5 View Post
All interesting info - thanks. I finally bought mine last month after watching for about 3 years - LOL. Private sale, 25k miles, 14, clean car fax, comp and exec, everything but ceramics for 46k - CA car and I am in MA. I looked far and wide but was interested in certain colors and packages so I am pleased... wholesale in New England area is around 42-44, but there are very few if any and my patience was wearing! Just my 2 cents as folks explore their options..

Side note, original asking was 52 and I just stood my ground.
You absolutely got a hell of a deal.
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Originally Posted by mikerx5 View Post
All interesting info - thanks. I finally bought mine last month after watching for about 3 years - LOL. Private sale, 25k miles, 14, clean car fax, comp and exec, everything but ceramics for 46k - CA car and I am in MA. I looked far and wide but was interested in certain colors and packages so I am pleased... wholesale in New England area is around 42-44, but there are very few if any and my patience was wearing! Just my 2 cents as folks explore their options..

Side note, original asking was 52 and I just stood my ground.
You absolutely got a hell of a deal.


Thanks. The expired warranty is a little nerve racking but this isnt a DD, and I am looking forward to taking it easy on the frequency and enjoying it!
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      03-11-2019, 04:42 AM   #56
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Thanks. The expired warranty is a little nerve racking but this isnt a DD, and I am looking forward to taking it easy on the frequency and enjoying it!
Maybe I'm too young that I don't know or still new to the game, but why are people so scared of being Out of Warranty?

Take care of your vehicle and it'll run smoothly... DD it like you would a Civic.
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      03-11-2019, 04:54 AM   #57
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Thanks. The expired warranty is a little nerve racking but this isnt a DD, and I am looking forward to taking it easy on the frequency and enjoying it!
Maybe I'm too young that I don't know or still new to the game, but why are people so scared of being Out of Warranty?

Take care of your vehicle and it'll run smoothly... DD it like you would a Civic.
Lol - not that old myself but the bills on the strange things that go can be overwhelming... and in MA it cant be DD with the weather between nov-mar
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      03-11-2019, 02:29 PM   #58
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Maybe I'm too young that I don't know or still new to the game, but why are people so scared of being Out of Warranty?

Take care of your vehicle and it'll run smoothly... DD it like you would a Civic.
You're too young and too new, being of warranty on any M car is not for the faint of heart. It's not impossible, but you should just be ready for that rainy day.
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      03-11-2019, 07:00 PM   #59
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You're too young and too new, being of warranty on any M car is not for the faint of heart. It's not impossible, but you should just be ready for that rainy day.
meh, it's overblown IMO. Typically, a major issue for a car that's 1-3 years removed from warranty expiry will get goodwilled. The expensive issues that pop up much later (rod bearings, SMG, Vanos of the past cars that I can think of) typically has decent aftermarket shop expertise by that time and it'll be much cheaper to fix.
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      03-11-2019, 07:02 PM   #60
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You're too young and too new, being of warranty on any M car is not for the faint of heart. It's not impossible, but you should just be ready for that rainy day.
meh, it's overblown IMO. Typically, a major issue will get goodwilled. The expensive issues that pop up much later (Rod bearings, SMG, Vanos of the past cars that I can think of) typically has decent aftermarket shop expertise by that time and it'll be much cheaper to fix.
It's all relative. If you've been around the bimmer block before no big deal, but it's not like owning a 2010 Camry.
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      03-11-2019, 07:02 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Cincinnatus View Post
They're irrelevant for those who don't have wholesale dealer credentials, and wholesale is at least in large measure driven by what the retail market will pay. No dealer bringing in a car for trade will offer a value in excess of what he thinks he can sell it for himself (read: retail street price drives the offer) or can flip it out to auction, and that's again derived by what retail prices command.

My point is that it's not the one-sided equation that you imply.
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Originally Posted by thebmw View Post
I think we are saying similar things. But it's the Chicken or the Egg. Retail does dictate demand, which leads to lower wholesale prices. It is impossible to track every retail purchase, but it is very easy to track a large quantity of wholesale purchases. So we can track what the actual retail price should be in real time and what the trends look like. We can also predict what the price should be next month and next year.

This is what Manheim MMR is for. KBB and Edmunds play off of Manheim to a certain extent (KBB seems to be months behind).
you guys are saying the same thing, and they are related.

The way I view wholesale pricing is that is the lowest price a dealer will offer you on a trade. It is also the lowest price the dealer is willing to sell a preowned car to a retail customer. The auction is the "buyer of last resort".

So using wholesale is a great way to negotiate the best deal on a preowned car.
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      03-18-2019, 09:48 PM   #62
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But we were talking about BMW vs Mercedes, and he made a general statement about all BMWs versus a specific product line.

I'm not debating your GTR comment. I can see a 2014 GTR with similar mileage as my M6 costs around $8k more on list. But I would say the GTR is more of a Corvette and R8 competitor. However, after 2015, GTR sells dipped significantly to less than 1000 per year.
True! I agree with you. I became aware of the resale value of both my BMW M6 and my GTR almost a year ago when I got buy back offers from BMW and Nissan. I have always given props to my BMWs over the years as being a class above all the rest. So, I never gave much thought to its resale value until then. At first, I thought that BMW was trying to lowball me with their offer for buy back. So, I went online and tried several appraisal sites. Thatís when it occurred to me that the M6s were losing their value really quickly. So, I decided to appraise my GTR and realized that itís resale value was much better than my M6. Since then, I must have read a dozen different articles relating to BMW M6 and their value. None of which I found to be reassuring, to say the least.

IMO, the bottom line is that M6s and BMW ďMĒ class vehicles arenít what they used to be. However, the new M5 seems to be holding its own right now. Thatís primarily due to the all wheel drive and 600hp. Letís hope that is a positive sign that BMW ďMĒ class is making a comeback.
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      03-20-2019, 10:03 PM   #63
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I've driven the F90 M5 (non ZCP), very spiritedly too. It's not better than a F06 M6 ZCP. The F06 still drives better. It may be marginally slower due to the weight, but there's no way I see the new M5 as a major upgrade. The only upgrade you're getting is the interior and navigation system. And if you need it...the AWD.

Secondly, while I've never driven a F10 M5, those that have and also driven the F06 M6 will say for some reason the M6 still drives better than the M5 due to the driving position of a coupe design. Even though both cars are mechanically the same car with just a different unibody. When you drop 5 inches or so in height, it makes a big different on a large car.
So true, gave up my 2015 M5 CP for a 2015 m6 cp with 2,000 fewer miles-moral of the story-much happier; the M6 drives so much better than the F10 and of course draws looks.
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      03-21-2019, 07:21 AM   #64
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Good question, if it still feels elite, I would keep it. 850i's are still desirable to me and they are 20 plus years old
have you notice how hard it is to sell a F12/13/06 650 right now? That'll be the 850's issue in 6 years. Once the M variant comes out, the mid-level, low volume, $100k car will not be desirable.

And now that BMW is starting to rebrand and really differentiate the M cars themselves into base, Competition, CS, GTS (not saying there will be a CS/GTS for the large cars), even the base will get marginalized and commoditized.

So, if you love the new 8's design....wait for the M8, and then wait again for the M8 ZCP, and then wait some more for the LCI, and then another year for the end of life cyle edition cars, and then swoop in for the one you want...preowned. And then perhaps like the 6 series, the M8 GC will be more desirable than the coupe?

After seeing all the LCI and end of life changes they made to the M6, I'm going to predict that the most desirable M6 GC will be a 2015 6MT ZCP. Likely there will only be less than 20 out there in US, I wish I waited for one, but I was swayed by the preinstalled Akra and instant gratification on my '14 DCT ZCP car!
I was referring to the original 8 series... they are like unicorns these days and almost 30 years old still turn heads!
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      03-21-2019, 03:48 PM   #65
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So true, gave up my 2015 M5 CP for a 2015 m6 cp with 2,000 fewer miles-moral of the story-much happier; the M6 drives so much better than the F10 and of course draws looks.
why do you think the M6 GC drives differently than the M5?

Some have speculated BMW tinkered with the suspension and steering of the M6. There are the physical differences from an old post I did on m5post and wider track and lower height can't be the major variable where the 2 cars drive differently:

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I'm going to correct you here, you cannot call out the dimensions of these two cars by eyeball. The M6 GC will give you the impression it's a much larger and wider car. The differences are much smaller than you imply in your post.

Firstly, the M6 GC is NOT on a 7-series frame. The 7-series frames are on a 126 inch or so wheelbase, so it's not even close. In fact, the M6 GC and M5 have the EXACT same wheelbase length. EXACT meaning, literally down the same fractions of an inch.

What the M6 GC and M5 does deviate from a measurement standpoint are:
1. M6 GC body length is about 4 inches longer (all of which attributed to the front bumper design), and ONLY 0.5 inch wider on the body.
2. M6 GC body height is 4 inches shorter than the M5
3. M6 GC track and body width are 0.1 and 0.5 inches (respectively) wider than the M5
4. M5 passenger compartment is 2 inches wider than the M6 GC (M5 can legitimately seat someone in the rear center bench.)
5. M5 rear passenger headroom is marginally higher than the M6 GC (the rear is 1 inch taller in the M5, front headroom are the same)
6. M5 weighs about 10 lbs lighter than the M6 GC
7. Finally, if you're talking about the M6 coupe, it's a smaller car. The wheelbase is 4 inches shorter than the M5/6GC and slightly shorter in height.

http://www.bmwpower.ge/pages/technic.../f10-m5-sedan/





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