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      05-04-2020, 02:56 PM   #23
Eddien123
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Originally Posted by dakine_surf View Post
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Originally Posted by Eddien123 View Post
The funny thing is the M3 is still the more exciting car to drive. I still think the E90 M3 holds it own but in terms of absolute speed the newer cars are just insane.
100%... an e92 might not be as fast in a straight line but that is all due to the transmission. An e92 M3 is still just about the best experience you can have with 4 wheels at any price
Agreed! I was really thinking about what car I enjoyed the most and overall it was the E92 m3... such a crazy engine and it didn't even feel fast but it was just engaging. I don't think many cars give that feeling. I'm hoping the M2C changes my mind or my next car likely won't be a BMW
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      05-04-2020, 02:56 PM   #24
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my 2000 m roadster was just as fast, if not faster than my 435i
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      05-04-2020, 03:10 PM   #25
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def feeding into the horsepower war. how fast do we need lol I mean these cars are rockets already, not complaining but where is the limit?
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      05-04-2020, 03:26 PM   #26
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Kind of over the horsepower wars to be honest. Would like some focus on improving driving dynamics and engagement over increasing horsepower.
Add me to the group who agrees. Once you get over 500 hp, it becomes a bit irrelevant to me. I'd rather car companies stop with the digital rocketship approach to performance and provide something that's actually fun to drive---not just when jamming the accelerator through the floor.

I am far more interesting in the poverty spec, low-hp RWD version of the upcoming M3/4 than I am of the fully loaded AWD version. I suppose if I needed one car to do everything, there would be value in the AWD, but thankfully I am not in that situation.
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      05-04-2020, 03:29 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by dakine_surf View Post
I'm sorry but 50% of BMW's now wear an ///M badge????

I knew they are watering the ///M brand down but 50% is ridiculous. Worse part 90% of the population doesn't know the difference between an M3 and a m sport package.

I really miss the days of one or two flavors, limited colors and knowing you had the best because it had the badge...
"...BMWs with M badges have seen sales rise by 207 percent."

This is disturbing.
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      05-04-2020, 03:35 PM   #28
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Would be much happier if he put a limit on grill size
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      05-04-2020, 03:41 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by SabineBimmer View Post
"...BMWs with M badges have seen sales rise by 207 percent."

This is disturbing.
Yeah someone else said it before as well, but there really is something wrong with this... I want less ///M badges... this new trend completely commoditizes the brand. It will be interesting to see what that does for prices in 30/40 years as they become classics.

I have done quite well investing in older ///M models over the years as they have appreciated quite steadily due to their relatively low numbers and exclusivity. I also bought most when they bottomed out... my mint 45K mile e28 M5 only cost 11 grand in 2006... last I saw they were well over the 35K mark... and my 3 e36 m3's were all bought pretty rough for cheap and have been restored and beginning to appreciate quite well.
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      05-04-2020, 03:49 PM   #30
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They should change the marketing line to:

"The Ultimate Self-Driving Machine"

I have no interest in a car with 500+ hp that is designed for an idiot to be able to "safely" mash the throttle with the steering wheel turned.

For me every 335, 340, whatever that I've driven has felt numb and disconnected, even with the extra 'M badges'. Fast in a straight line, maybe, but designed for a market where drivers expect to be able to check their email and drink their coffee at WOT. And still brag about their 0-60 times.

The M3/M4 have historically been better in this regard. The gap is reducing recently, but at least they are (were?) designed for driver enjoyment.

I really don't see what driver engagement will be left with an 8-speed auto transmission that needs to shift gears so often that the human can no longer really be in the loop. (cue the 6MT police... ) The new X3M demonstrates this philosophy clearly for me. Brute force point&shoot machine - fast but with zero engagement.

I *really* hope that they pull something special out of the bag with the G8x to prove me wrong. Fix the steering numbness. Make the ZF box something where the driver is in charge of shifts and the gearbox does wha it's told. Get the AWD out of my face once it's done the first 10ft of your 0-60 'race'.
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      05-04-2020, 04:14 PM   #31
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I hear you when people who say M has been diluting the brand for the last few years. But we also have to him them credit for staying in and expanding the M brand. If an automaker focuses on catering to the enthusiast crowd, they will either fail, not be scalable or be affordable.

BMW adding more M trim to non-M cars is not a big deal. From a business standpoint, its fantastic they're getting so much traction and have marketed M as the "cool" trim to select. This also provides a channel for buyers to eventually jump into a true M machine.

M is still creating wholehearted M cars nonetheless. To hardcore enthusiasts, even new M cars may not fit their expectation of the original M ethos. But that is the trend for any hardcore car enthusiasts in every brand (Porsche, Mercedes, Toyota, etc). Luckily, that is why the preowned market for classic cars have skyrocketed in recent years.

My fascination with BMW and M started around the e92 era. More trending to the new M, of marketing and producing performance luxury vehicles. However, I am also a relatively rare breed of individuals who appreciate the mechanical aspect of the driving experience with some caveats. Based on knowledge, I would love to own a e30 M3 or e39 M5.

Personally, I am hot and heavy for the M2C and quite enjoy the inclusion of some new tech and safety features. M did it right in my eyes, sure there are some additional aspects we would all want. But in general, it works.
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      05-04-2020, 04:39 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine_surf View Post
100%... an e92 might not be as fast in a straight line but that is all due to the transmission. An e92 M3 is still just about the best experience you can have with 4 wheels at any price
Such a great car. I really miss it--wish I would have kept it.
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      05-04-2020, 04:57 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jstein55 View Post
Kind of over the horsepower wars to be honest. Would like some focus on improving driving dynamics and engagement over increasing horsepower.
Especially when a sleeper Civic smokes you. :Lol:
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      05-04-2020, 05:02 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddien123 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine_surf View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddien123 View Post
The funny thing is the M3 is still the more exciting car to drive. I still think the E90 M3 holds it own but in terms of absolute speed the newer cars are just insane.
100%... an e92 might not be as fast in a straight line but that is all due to the transmission. An e92 M3 is still just about the best experience you can have with 4 wheels at any price
Agreed! I was really thinking about what car I enjoyed the most and overall it was the E92 m3... such a crazy engine and it didn't even feel fast but it was just engaging. I don't think many cars give that feeling. I'm hoping the M2C changes my mind or my next car likely won't be a BMW
I did ED on a 2011 E92 M3. Love the car, the engine, sound, etc. Why did I sell my e92?? I started to have the tick of death!! Bearings. 👎🏻

I still prefer my M2C over ever BMW I have ever had. My M2C makes my 11 BMW.
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      05-04-2020, 05:08 PM   #35
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Don’t expect BMW to limit power figures

It’s about time BMW limits size and weight!

cars at 1600kg plus are no sporty cars they are fast transport.
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      05-04-2020, 05:52 PM   #36
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No power limits*

*Limited by the segment which the car is sold in per management bean counters. Also limited by USA emissions taxes.
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      05-04-2020, 05:53 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by duky View Post
Oh,sometime bmw is able to listen their customers then

next step is make good looking cars again
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      05-04-2020, 05:58 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine_surf View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddien123 View Post
The funny thing is the M3 is still the more exciting car to drive. I still think the E90 M3 holds it own but in terms of absolute speed the newer cars are just insane.
100%... an e92 might not be as fast in a straight line but that is all due to the transmission. An e92 M3 is still just about the best experience you can have with 4 wheels at any price
It's not just the transmission. It's power/torque under the curve and engine characteristics. The transmission isn't nearly as big a factor as how the motor builds power.
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      05-04-2020, 05:59 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advevo View Post
Don't expect BMW to limit power figures

It's about time BMW limits size and weight!

cars at 1600kg plus are no sporty cars they are fast transport.
It's about time ALL MANUFACTURERS limit weight. The BMW's are still often the lightest cars in their competitive segment. Even a GT3 weighs 3200 lbs.
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      05-04-2020, 06:01 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbar View Post
They should change the marketing line to:

"The Ultimate Self-Driving Machine"

I have no interest in a car with 500+ hp that is designed for an idiot to be able to "safely" mash the throttle with the steering wheel turned.

For me every 335, 340, whatever that I've driven has felt numb and disconnected, even with the extra 'M badges'. Fast in a straight line, maybe, but designed for a market where drivers expect to be able to check their email and drink their coffee at WOT. And still brag about their 0-60 times.

The M3/M4 have historically been better in this regard. The gap is reducing recently, but at least they are (were?) designed for driver enjoyment.

I really don't see what driver engagement will be left with an 8-speed auto transmission that needs to shift gears so often that the human can no longer really be in the loop. (cue the 6MT police... ) The new X3M demonstrates this philosophy clearly for me. Brute force point&shoot machine - fast but with zero engagement.

I *really* hope that they pull something special out of the bag with the G8x to prove me wrong. Fix the steering numbness. Make the ZF box something where the driver is in charge of shifts and the gearbox does wha it's told. Get the AWD out of my face once it's done the first 10ft of your 0-60 'race'.
If you want more control, buy a 6MT!!!


Sincerely,


The [6MT] Police
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      05-04-2020, 06:01 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by elitex View Post
I agree. I still remember reading a review back in 2001 between E39 M5, E55 ( I think) and few others. M5 was the slowest in the bunch in straight line but it was the best drivers car and won.
You're misremembering the test. The E39 M5 was the fastest production sedan available when it came out. Here's a link to the Car and Driver test you're thinking about: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...mparison-test/

The M5 was significantly faster than its competition. I bought one and had it for 15 years. Great car; incredible when it was announced. Still incredible today.

Here's a quote from the article:
"How do you characterize a roomy four-door, leather-lined luxury capsule that can keep up with a C5 Corvette? All the way to 150 mph! With quarter-mile performance of 13.3 seconds at 108 mph, let's just call it the fastest production sedan on the planet.

But the new M5 is more than a tire shredding drag racer (the traction control occasionally cuts in during a hard three-four shift over bumpy pavement—at 110 mph!). It stopped from 70 mph in the shortest span (156 feet), it performed emergency-lane-change maneuver successfully at the highest speed (66.2 mph), and it tied for the best cornering grip at 0.90 g. The M5 is simply a remarkably well-rounded performance machine.
"
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      05-04-2020, 06:33 PM   #42
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How many people that have been reviewing cars recently honestly think they need more power? I think BMW is missing the mark if they're not looking for a different path forward with their M cars.

Let's make lighter cars from the factory and put an end to this BS aftermarket infatuation with carbon fiber parts. BMW should set a goal to make a 3000-3100 lb car.
If Lotus can make a 6 cylinder car with forced induction with a ton of "enthusiast" appeal why can't they do it? even if its a bit a of stripper trim...who cares...
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      05-04-2020, 06:51 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasi_M3 View Post
How many people that have been reviewing cars recently honestly think they need more power? I think BMW is missing the mark if they're not looking for a different path forward with their M cars.

Let's make lighter cars from the factory and put an end to this BS aftermarket infatuation with carbon fiber parts. BMW should set a goal to make a 3000-3100 lb car.
If Lotus can make a 6 cylinder car with forced induction with a ton of "enthusiast" appeal why can't they do it? even if its a bit a of stripper trim...who cares...
The CF infatuation won't end. Thinking that any factory can offset the tuner market is a pipe dream. People buy Ferrari's and high end Porsche's and still seek the aftermarket. It'll never end.

If Porsche can barely get a 2-seater GT3 to 3200 lbs. (...which is a low volume seller for Porsche) and the McLaren 720 is around 3200 lbs., what makes you think it would be easy for BMW to get a passenger car to that point? A Pagani Zonda is tipping on 3000 lbs. I think you guys need to be more realistic.
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      05-04-2020, 07:03 PM   #44
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Ok thru sedan but

If you make cars bigger that means more metal, bigger carpet, wider seats, more glass etc etc.

Add lightness begins by making smaller and nimbler cars and not make every new model bigger.

M2 is bigger again then the 1m coupe. The 1m size was perfect size to start with and from that you start to make that size lighter. No BMW makes a new car M2 bigger heavier add even heavier brakes and put a carbon roof in. Please that’s just plain stupid and brings norhing.

Last edited by Advevo; 05-04-2020 at 07:08 PM..
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