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      05-05-2020, 06:34 AM   #89
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At the end of the day, BMW needs to satisfy its shareholders, that is priority #1 and is case for all businesses. I'm not saying BMW does not care about enthusiasts, but if it was a choice between the two, shareholders edges out.

Shareholders are a fickle bunch, especially institutional shareholders. If BMW does not see earnings aka sales improve year over year, shareholders may as well take their funding elsewhere. And with limited funding, good luck making any cars geared towards us.

The whole point I'm trying to make is yes, the old days are gone if you factor in keeping the cost accessible for all. But that does not mean BMW are not trying and producing fun vehicles within their guard rails.

There are three main dimensions and you can only choose 2:
1. Old school BMW feel
2. Accessible cost
3. BMW making revenue (paramount in a business) / Corporate responsibility
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      05-05-2020, 07:15 AM   #90
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Electric motors are making HP moot.

When the current Tesla Model 3 can dust a M4 under the most typical operating conditions (hint, it's not track sessions) it seems rather obvious that range becomes the new measure of performance.
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      05-05-2020, 07:19 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
At the end of the day, BMW needs to satisfy its shareholders, that is priority #1 and is case for all businesses. I'm not saying BMW does not care about enthusiasts, but if it was a choice between the two, shareholders edges out.

Shareholders are a fickle bunch, especially institutional shareholders. If BMW does not see earnings aka sales improve year over year, shareholders may as well take their funding elsewhere. And with limited funding, good luck making any cars geared towards us.

The whole point I'm trying to make is yes, the old days are gone if you factor in keeping the cost accessible for all. But that does not mean BMW are not trying and producing fun vehicles within their guard rails.

There are three main dimensions and you can only choose 2:
1. Old school BMW feel
2. Accessible cost
3. BMW making revenue (paramount in a business)
+1

Institutional shareholders are not always concerned with profits but "social and environmental responsibility". For some investors these other issues are a priority over profits.

The easiest example is Tesla.
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      05-05-2020, 07:24 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
At the end of the day, BMW needs to satisfy its shareholders, that is priority #1 and is case for all businesses. I'm not saying BMW does not care about enthusiasts, but if it was a choice between the two, shareholders edges out.

Shareholders are a fickle bunch, especially institutional shareholders. If BMW does not see earnings aka sales improve year over year, shareholders may as well take their funding elsewhere. And with limited funding, good luck making any cars geared towards us.

The whole point I'm trying to make is yes, the old days are gone if you factor in keeping the cost accessible for all. But that does not mean BMW are not trying and producing fun vehicles within their guard rails.

There are three main dimensions and you can only choose 2:
1. Old school BMW feel
2. Accessible cost
3. BMW making revenue (paramount in a business)
There is a caveat to this. Institutional shareholders are not always concerned with profits but "social and environmental responsibility". For some investors these other issues are a priority over profits.

The easiest example is Tesla.
Sure, that makes sense. But the point of the argument still holds true and maybe even more so. Socially responsible and environmentally conscious investors will probably steer clear of internal combustion high performance vehicles.
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      05-05-2020, 08:05 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Did you read what I posted earlier? A GT3 is 3200 lbs.; a GT4 is 3000 pounds. There's NO UTILITY in either car. Porsche sells those cars are low volume; they are a niche car company. BMW IS NOT. BMW cannot produce a passenger car at GT4 weight, and surely not without charging Porsche prices or beyond. You are high!

If a Lotus worked for you, you'd already be driving one. If a Porsche worked for you, you'd be driving one of those too.
the lightest 2 cars that bmw still makes is well sadly ... the supra.

And that is still 3400 lbs for the i-6 and 3200 for the i4.

They are more than liveable though, so I guess if they really had to they could do it. I'd guess if they made the supra chassis smaller so it couldn't fit an i-6, made the B48 put out say 350+ hp, it probably wouldn't be insane to think it could get down to 3000-3100 lbs. Just make it some sort of e30 m3 throwback car.
So you'd deem a Supra "livable"? Surely you jest.
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      05-05-2020, 08:12 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Electric motors are making HP moot.

When the current Tesla Model 3 can dust a M4 under the most typical operating conditions (hint, it's not track sessions) it seems rather obvious that range becomes the new measure of performance.
If that were the case none of us would buy ///M cars and we would all be driving Tesla's.
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      05-05-2020, 09:05 AM   #95
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I hate to say this but sometimes I think I enjoy my m235 more than my brand new m5.
It's all about the handling
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      05-05-2020, 09:17 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Electric motors are making HP moot.

When the current Tesla Model 3 can dust a M4 under the most typical operating conditions (hint, it's not track sessions) it seems rather obvious that range becomes the new measure of performance.
If that were the case none of us would buy ///M cars and we would all be driving Tesla's.
Clearly there are additional reasons to HP.

Imagine IF Tesla sold the Model 3 with a similar level of options which are available from other luxury automakers.

It's no secret that only a small percentage of M-cars are regularly tracked anyways. This is a very small segment. These individuals aren't any more loyal to the brand vs the rest.
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      05-05-2020, 09:22 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Electric motors are making HP moot.

When the current Tesla Model 3 can dust a M4 under the most typical operating conditions (hint, it's not track sessions) it seems rather obvious that range becomes the new measure of performance.
If that were the case none of us would buy ///M cars and we would all be driving Tesla's.
Clearly there are additional reasons to HP.

Imagine IF Tesla sold the Model 3 with a similar level of options which are available from other luxury automakers.

It's no secret that only a small percentage of M-cars are regularly tracked anyways. This is a very small segment. These individuals aren't any more loyal to the brand vs the rest.
What options might those be? The Tesla is already tech porn for people who have to have the latest/greatest tech. The interior is decent; comparable to a 3 Series. Tesla's aren't new. For all of us driving M's, we could've opted for a Model S years ago.......but we didn't. For me personally there is something missing from the motoring experience when it comes to EV's. Well, at least where Tesla is concerned. The Porsche Taycan is compelling, but I wouldn't choose it over an MT GT2/GT3 variant.

I fully expect a hybrid ///M to debut at some point, and as long as there's still an MT option I'll be open to it. The moment the MT is gone is the moment I stop buying BMW's.
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      05-05-2020, 09:25 AM   #98
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I'm sorry but 50% of BMW's now wear an ///M badge????

I knew they are watering the ///M brand down but 50% is ridiculous. Worse part 90% of the population doesn't know the difference between an M3 and a m sport package.

I really miss the days of one or two flavors, limited colors and knowing you had the best because it had the badge...
Pretty certain he means 50% of models, not 50% of BMW's sold, which makes sense since almost all the models above the base engine are M Sport models now. No "regular" 340i, X3 40i, etc.
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      05-05-2020, 09:26 AM   #99
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We can agree to disagree, it is what it is. What I know for a fact is that driving an E9X side-by-side with an F30 or G20 is a depressing experience.
You need to drive an E90 M3 back-to-back with an M2 Competition. I do it all the time. My M3 has some suspension mods and wider wheels than stock, the M2C is stock as delivered. The steering feedback approaching/at/over the limits on the M2C is much improved from any other EPS system I've driven from BMW, as we were literally ready to flip the car right away if it didn't meet our desires (our meaning my wife and I, it's her primary car). I spent the day on the Michelin 1/2 mile skidpad with the car on the 3rd day we owned it (had already racked up over 1000 miles) to really shake it down. The driving dynamics of the M2C are outstanding.

She wasn't going to sell her E90 330i (ZSP, 6MT) we owned since new unless the M2C met our expectations since clearly the F30 didn't.

I've been driving BMWs since 1974, and autocrossing 1975, track 1981, etc. 40 year CCA member, etc. I was instantly at home in the M2C on the skidpad, track and autocross courses. It's like a friendly helper just waiting to do whatever you ask and do it well.

One of the best parts of the M2C is the programming that went into the M-active LSD imo. Unlike the ridiculous Visco-Lok unit in the E46/E9x M3, this thing is super integrated into the car's dynamic situation. It's likely 100% open on slow-to-medium speed corner entry, so turn in is unreal instant with no push, and as you transition from heavy trailbraking to rolling on throttle at the apex, it's all ready for you as you track out under as much throttle as the rear tires can handle. It was just as much fun on the skidpad too drifting at 70mph. I really wish we could see some traces of locking percentage overlaid with a track map. I want to learn a lot more about the s/w behind controlling LSD locking percentage versus each input (and derivatives of those inputs).
The M2C is the only BMW Germanauto actually likes right now, so you'll definitely get his approval with this post, hell its the only BMW I really like right now as well, the M2C is the only thing keeping a new BMW in my garage after 20+ years of ownership, they better not screw up the next one like they've done with some of their other products.
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      05-05-2020, 09:36 AM   #100
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You need to drive an E90 M3 back-to-back with an M2 Competition. I do it all the time. My M3 has some suspension mods and wider wheels than stock, the M2C is stock as delivered. The steering feedback approaching/at/over the limits on the M2C is much improved from any other EPS system I've driven from BMW, as we were literally ready to flip the car right away if it didn't meet our desires (our meaning my wife and I, it's her primary car). I spent the day on the Michelin 1/2 mile skidpad with the car on the 3rd day we owned it (had already racked up over 1000 miles) to really shake it down. The driving dynamics of the M2C are outstanding.

She wasn't going to sell her E90 330i (ZSP, 6MT) we owned since new unless the M2C met our expectations since clearly the F30 didn't.

I've been driving BMWs since 1974, and autocrossing 1975, track 1981, etc. 40 year CCA member, etc. I was instantly at home in the M2C on the skidpad, track and autocross courses. It's like a friendly helper just waiting to do whatever you ask and do it well.

One of the best parts of the M2C is the programming that went into the M-active LSD imo. Unlike the ridiculous Visco-Lok unit in the E46/E9x M3, this thing is super integrated into the car's dynamic situation. It's likely 100% open on slow-to-medium speed corner entry, so turn in is unreal instant with no push, and as you transition from heavy trailbraking to rolling on throttle at the apex, it's all ready for you as you track out under as much throttle as the rear tires can handle. It was just as much fun on the skidpad too drifting at 70mph. I really wish we could see some traces of locking percentage overlaid with a track map. I want to learn a lot more about the s/w behind controlling LSD locking percentage versus each input (and derivatives of those inputs).

I concur as well. I loved my Fire Orange e92 M3 and the high revving engine. But I'm having so much more fun with my M2c and I do believe it's partly to do with the smaller footprint.

The LSD in the M2c is even more of a revelation in winter use with the MDM activated. I expected this after dailying my F80 for few years but again the smaller car and linear power curve in the F87 (compared to F80) makes it much more manageable and controllable allowing you to push the limits much further than usual despite the weather conditions.

I've considered getting a base 992 with limited options but I don't think I'll be satisfied without a similar eLSD as in the F8x since you need to jump to the 992 S to experience the LSD + PTV.

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      05-05-2020, 09:46 AM   #101
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
You need to drive an E90 M3 back-to-back with an M2 Competition. I do it all the time. My M3 has some suspension mods and wider wheels than stock, the M2C is stock as delivered. The steering feedback approaching/at/over the limits on the M2C is much improved from any other EPS system I've driven from BMW, as we were literally ready to flip the car right away if it didn't meet our desires (our meaning my wife and I, it's her primary car). I spent the day on the Michelin 1/2 mile skidpad with the car on the 3rd day we owned it (had already racked up over 1000 miles) to really shake it down. The driving dynamics of the M2C are outstanding.

She wasn't going to sell her E90 330i (ZSP, 6MT) we owned since new unless the M2C met our expectations since clearly the F30 didn't.

I've been driving BMWs since 1974, and autocrossing 1975, track 1981, etc. 40 year CCA member, etc. I was instantly at home in the M2C on the skidpad, track and autocross courses. It's like a friendly helper just waiting to do whatever you ask and do it well.

One of the best parts of the M2C is the programming that went into the M-active LSD imo. Unlike the ridiculous Visco-Lok unit in the E46/E9x M3, this thing is super integrated into the car's dynamic situation. It's likely 100% open on slow-to-medium speed corner entry, so turn in is unreal instant with no push, and as you transition from heavy trailbraking to rolling on throttle at the apex, it's all ready for you as you track out under as much throttle as the rear tires can handle. It was just as much fun on the skidpad too drifting at 70mph. I really wish we could see some traces of locking percentage overlaid with a track map. I want to learn a lot more about the s/w behind controlling LSD locking percentage versus each input (and derivatives of those inputs).

I concur as well. I loved my Fire Orange e92 M3 and the high revving engine. But I'm having so much more fun with my M2c and I do believe it's partly to do with the smaller footprint.

The LSD in the M2c is even more of a revelation in winter use with the MDM activated. I expected this after dailying my F80 for few years but again the smaller car and linear power curve in the F87 (compared to F80) makes it much more manageable and controllable allowing you to push the limits much further than usual despite the weather conditions.

I've considered getting a base 992 with limited options but I don't think I'll be satisfied without a similar eLSD as in the F8x as you need to jump to the 992 S to experience the LSD + PTV.
In earlier threads I talked about looking at preowned Carrera Ts and the only competitor to it would be preowned Carrera S, due to inclusion of PTV (in the Porsche realm). In my mind, a modern sports car need to have a LSD and it is what makes a modern day performance car. Therefore, I have a real problem getting a base Carrera, no matter how loaded it is. Unless your use case is just a daily driver.
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      05-05-2020, 09:52 AM   #102
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Pretty certain he means 50% of models, not 50% of BMW's sold, which makes sense since almost all the models above the base engine are M Sport models now. No "regular" 340i, X3 40i, etc.
50% of cars sold is a itte hard to believe at first, but then you rememebr that M models sell more (way more offering than a few years ago, M2, M8 and X3M/X4M for exampe) and then all the new M performace models and the fact that you can get an msport pkg on al models now. Look at the 330i in Canada, 2k for the mpsort pkg is a no brainer. Remember the 135i without the msport package? No thanks.

Lots of regular non enthusiasts would probably mistake a X3 M40i for a real M car, but every owner knows they don't own a real M car.
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      05-05-2020, 10:03 AM   #103
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We are the last saving grace for the MT over here in the U.S. Hopefully people continue to buy them. I think the MT offering is what still sets BMW apart from the competition.
I swear on everything, the third pedal option is only thing that still keeps me tethered to the BMW, as brand; Mercedes and Audi makes much more appealing vehicles, expect they only offer them with paddle shifters..

Don't believe me? Go check out the competitors website and vehicle selection, then get back to me..
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      05-05-2020, 10:15 AM   #104
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We are the last saving grace for the MT over here in the U.S. Hopefully people continue to buy them. I think the MT offering is what still sets BMW apart from the competition.
I swear on everything, the third pedal option is only thing that still keeps me tethered to the BMW, as brand; Mercedes and Audi makes much more appealing vehicles, expect they only offer them with paddle shifters..

Don't believe me? Go check out the competitors website and vehicle selection, then get back to me..
I can tell you with certainty the MT is my tether. I love the brand, but absent the ability to row my own cogs I would stop buying BMW's. It would force me to save the money and buy an MT GT3.
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      05-05-2020, 10:26 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
We are the last saving grace for the MT over here in the U.S. Hopefully people continue to buy them. I think the MT offering is what still sets BMW apart from the competition.
I swear on everything, the third pedal option is only thing that still keeps me tethered to the BMW, as brand; Mercedes and Audi makes much more appealing vehicles, expect they only offer them with paddle shifters..

Don't believe me? Go check out the competitors website and vehicle selection, then get back to me..
I can tell you with certainty the MT is my tether. I love the brand, but absent the ability to row my own cogs I would stop buying BMW's. It would force me to save the money and buy an MT GT3.
We both think alike but unfortunately, my bank account is not keeping up with my lofty ambitions..

I'm trying to branch off into expanding my knowledge of Porsches but I can't seem find an APP as condensed as Bimmerpost.

Also, forgive me if I'm wrong but from what I understand, the only manual GT3 Porsche offers is the "Touring" version, so the third pedal seems to be drying up, in all fronts, not just the BMW brand..
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      05-05-2020, 10:38 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
We are the last saving grace for the MT over here in the U.S. Hopefully people continue to buy them. I think the MT offering is what still sets BMW apart from the competition.
I swear on everything, the third pedal option is only thing that still keeps me tethered to the BMW, as brand; Mercedes and Audi makes much more appealing vehicles, expect they only offer them with paddle shifters..

Don't believe me? Go check out the competitors website and vehicle selection, then get back to me..
I can tell you with certainty the MT is my tether. I love the brand, but absent the ability to row my own cogs I would stop buying BMW's. It would force me to save the money and buy an MT GT3.
We both think alike but unfortunately, my bank account is not keeping up with my lofty ambitions..

I'm trying to branch off into expanding my knowledge of Porsches but I can't seem find an APP as condensed as Bimmerpost.

Also, forgive me if I'm wrong but from what I understand, the only manual GT3 Porsche offers is the "Touring" version, so the third pedal seems to be drying up, in all fronts, not just the BMW brand..
They offer the standard GT3 in MT too. The Touring is designed for those who aren't into that racer rear wing. Up until a couple of years ago, Porsche killed the MT. Their enthusiast crowd had a conniption fit. They brought that MT back in short order.
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      05-05-2020, 10:40 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
We are the last saving grace for the MT over here in the U.S. Hopefully people continue to buy them. I think the MT offering is what still sets BMW apart from the competition.
I swear on everything, the third pedal option is only thing that still keeps me tethered to the BMW, as brand; Mercedes and Audi makes much more appealing vehicles, expect they only offer them with paddle shifters..

Don't believe me? Go check out the competitors website and vehicle selection, then get back to me..
I can tell you with certainty the MT is my tether. I love the brand, but absent the ability to row my own cogs I would stop buying BMW's. It would force me to save the money and buy an MT GT3.
We both think alike but unfortunately, my bank account is not keeping up with my lofty ambitions..

I'm trying to branch off into expanding my knowledge of Porsches but I can't seem find an APP as condensed as Bimmerpost.

Also, forgive me if I'm wrong but from what I understand, the only manual GT3 Porsche offers is the "Touring" version, so the third pedal seems to be drying up, in all fronts, not just the BMW brand..
The regular GT3 also offers a manual option. This was not an option for one generation - 991.1 (I believe?). But due to backlash, Porsche subsequently included them in the next LCI. Also the GT3 Touring is fantastic, definitely my overall dream car to own one day.

Both you and Sedan_Clan mentioned how the MT keeps you in the BMW sphere. What do you guys think about the current feel of the MT. Sure it's not the "best", but some people make it sound like absolute sh*t with how "rubbery" and imprecise it is.
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      05-05-2020, 10:43 AM   #108
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We are the last saving grace for the MT over here in the U.S. Hopefully people continue to buy them. I think the MT offering is what still sets BMW apart from the competition.
I swear on everything, the third pedal option is only thing that still keeps me tethered to the BMW, as brand; Mercedes and Audi makes much more appealing vehicles, expect they only offer them with paddle shifters..

Don't believe me? Go check out the competitors website and vehicle selection, then get back to me..
I can tell you with certainty the MT is my tether. I love the brand, but absent the ability to row my own cogs I would stop buying BMW's. It would force me to save the money and buy an MT GT3.
We both think alike but unfortunately, my bank account is not keeping up with my lofty ambitions..

I'm trying to branch off into expanding my knowledge of Porsches but I can't seem find an APP as condensed as Bimmerpost.

Also, forgive me if I'm wrong but from what I understand, the only manual GT3 Porsche offers is the "Touring" version, so the third pedal seems to be drying up, in all fronts, not just the BMW brand..
The regular GT3 also offers a manual option. This was not an option for one generation - 991.1 (I believe?). But due to backlash, Porsche subsequently included them in the next LCI. Also the GT3 Touring is fantastic, definitely my overall dream car to own one day.

Both you and Sedan_Clan mentioned how the MT keeps you in the BMW sphere. What do you guys think about the current feel of the MT. Sure it's not the "best", but some people make it sound like absolute sh*t with how "rubbery" and imprecise it is.
I quite like it. I've never had an issue with BMW MT's. I don't know where the comments stem from, but when it comes to feel it's hard to tell another person they are wrong when the subject matter is highly subjective.

Many people hold the S2000 MT in high regard, but I have never liked the feel of it. It felt overly mechanical to me; akin to the difference in feel between a Harbor Freight ratchet and a Snap-On ratchet. I like the smoothness of the BMW MT.
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      05-05-2020, 10:51 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by dakine_surf View Post
I'm sorry but 50% of BMW's now wear an ///M badge????

I knew they are watering the ///M brand down but 50% is ridiculous. Worse part 90% of the population doesn't know the difference between an M3 and a m sport package.

I really miss the days of one or two flavors, limited colors and knowing you had the best because it had the badge...

Worse part 90% of the population doesn't know the difference between an M3 and a m sport package. I can only think of one reason that you have a problem with this. Status symbol, you might try to get into the frame of mind that no one really cares what you are driving. If I was driving along in my Honda why should I care that you have an M3 and not just a BMW unless I was one of those lunatics that puts an M badge on my Honda. Enjoy whatever car you are driving believe me 90% of the population doesn't care.
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      05-05-2020, 11:11 AM   #110
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Lots of regular non enthusiasts would probably mistake a X3 M40i for a real M car, but every owner knows they don't own a real M car.

This is funny because my friend just recently purchased a X3 M40i and believe me he had no idea what the M stands for. He did not know about the M heritage. All he knew was that he bought a BMW X3. He thought that the car was just named an X3 M40i, hysterical. So yeah you are right he now knows what M stands for (I explained) and knows that his X3 M40i is not an M car.
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