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      01-25-2021, 01:25 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Tacoma View Post
Leases are controlled by the Financial Services Division at the corporate entity level and dealers are not normally given discretion to change terms, so you either take what's offered or seek 3rd party financing as you alluded.

As for your other point, the GLE 63 S is ~$120K, so 2% discount is ~$2,400 which is not insignificant considering dealer margins. They've obviously considered incurring carrying charges for keeping the car in inventory longer is still better than accepting your 2% off offer.

What you consider greed others consider as supply and demand forces at work. If you don't like it, you're free to buy elsewhere. I hear the BMW X2 isn't selling well and supply is plenty, so you may get some less greedy deals there.
Money factor minimum is set for leases, that is true... but for maximum? as much as the dealer can get away with since thats money in their pockets.
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      01-26-2021, 09:54 PM   #24
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I found MB to be very arrogant when I was shopping for a GLC 63 recently. When I asked for a test drive, the salesman said they don't usually allow it and he had to come with me "because it's an AMG". Acted like it was a Bugatti. He only let me drive it for 5 minutes and he was also a real dumbass, didn't know anything about the car. No thanks MB, I bought another BMW.
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      01-27-2021, 09:00 AM   #25
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Strange conversation. You want a bigger discount than the seller wants to give. This can't be the first time something like this has happened to you. Then, you won't pay 2% more, you aren't interested in going to another dealer, obviously don't care that much about this vehicle and will just switch brands. There really isn't anything else to discuss. Long term the dealer may wish he just sold it to you at a discount over holding on to it but I doubt they are worried about it.

This one time I tried to buy a house and the seller wanted more than I was willing to pay......
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      01-27-2021, 09:38 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Strange conversation. You want a bigger discount than the seller wants to give. This can't be the first time something like this has happened to you. Then, you won't pay 2% more, you aren't interested in going to another dealer, obviously don't care that much about this vehicle and will just switch brands. There really isn't anything else to discuss. Long term the dealer may wish he just sold it to you at a discount over holding on to it but I doubt they are worried about it.

This one time I tried to buy a house and the seller wanted more than I was willing to pay......
not exactly

he is looking for the seller to offer base MF, not marked up.

OP if you pay the lease in full (present value) then dont you avoid their MF all together? Amortize it yourself.
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      01-27-2021, 10:02 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Maitre_Absolut View Post
not exactly

he is looking for the seller to offer base MF, not marked up.

OP if you pay the lease in full (present value) then dont you avoid their MF all together? Amortize it yourself.
And 2% discount, MF is only part of the problem. They aren't agreeing to what he wants and this isn't that surprising as it happens daily anywhere that prices are negotiated. As you said you can change the terms of the lease for a different deal.

You would offer to pay the lease in full, up front? I don't think this is something many people actually want to do and it seems like it defeats a lot of the reasons people lease. Seems like most want to minimize the down payment and have regular payments, not tying up a lot of cash.
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      01-27-2021, 10:54 AM   #28
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Get an X5M instead

If dealers are not willing to work with customers, they have to understand we will shop somewhere else
Or a Porsche Cayenne.
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      01-27-2021, 11:03 AM   #29
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Didn't know they were that bad,I guess it's the same over here.
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      01-27-2021, 01:03 PM   #30
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Or a Porsche Cayenne.
Or a Bentley Bentayga!!
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      01-27-2021, 01:44 PM   #31
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I haven't posted in quite some time but would like to chime in here.

I was at Beverly Hills BMW looking at a brand new M5C in British Racing Green, Ceramics, Carmel/black interior with deviated stitching. MSRP was over $140k. To me it was the perfect spec. They didn't want to discount a single dollar from the car. They also didn't want to let me test drive any car without an "appointment". (I wanted to test drive any used M5C on their lot because I hadn't driven one yet)

So then the next day I went and grabbed a 991.2 Turbo.



Most salesmen are simply brainless.
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      01-27-2021, 01:48 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e92.997 View Post
I haven't posted in quite some time but would like to chime in here.

I was at Beverly Hills BMW looking at a brand new M5C in British Racing Green, Ceramics, Carmel/black interior with deviated stitching. MSRP was over $140k. To me it was the perfect spec. They didn't want to discount a single dollar from the car. They also didn't want to let me test drive any car without an "appointment". (I wanted to test drive any used M5C on their lot because I hadn't driven one yet)

So then the next day I went and grabbed a 991.2 Turbo.



Most salesmen are simply brainless.
Well, this is because it was Beverly Hills BMW. Most BMW dealerships don’t act that way. Even Braman BMW in Palm Beach.
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      01-27-2021, 01:48 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e92.997 View Post
I haven't posted in quite some time but would like to chime in here.

I was at Beverly Hills BMW looking at a brand new M5C in British Racing Green, Ceramics, Carmel/black interior with deviated stitching. MSRP was over $140k. To me it was the perfect spec. They didn't want to discount a single dollar from the car. They also didn't want to let me test drive any car without an "appointment". (I wanted to test drive any used M5C on their lot because I hadn't driven one yet)

So then the next day I went and grabbed a 991.2 Turbo.



Most salesmen are simply brainless.
Good thing they saved you from losing $80k on that M5 in 3 years. Kind of a weird decision between a 991.2 Turbo and an M5 though.
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      01-27-2021, 02:00 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by David70 View Post
And 2% discount, MF is only part of the problem. They aren't agreeing to what he wants and this isn't that surprising as it happens daily anywhere that prices are negotiated. As you said you can change the terms of the lease for a different deal.

You would offer to pay the lease in full, up front? I don't think this is something many people actually want to do and it seems like it defeats a lot of the reasons people lease. Seems like most want to minimize the down payment and have regular payments, not tying up a lot of cash.
You are trying to simplify this to a base case of offer and demand determining prices. When you get into above MSRP territory (MF surcharge is 8k vs 2k discount) its ok that the OP is not satisfied. Other than Porsche GT cars, its not common to be asking above MSRP (and hiding it through finance terms).

If you are saying that people lease because they cant afford the car then yes, paying up front would be a problem. But lets assume someone can afford and has access to cheap cash. Borrowing at 3% vs charging 6% or whatever MF they are charging is another option
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      01-27-2021, 02:53 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maitre_Absolut View Post
You are trying to simplify this to a base case of offer and demand determining prices. When you get into above MSRP territory (MF surcharge is 8k vs 2k discount) its ok that the OP is not satisfied. Other than Porsche GT cars, its not common to be asking above MSRP (and hiding it through finance terms).

If you are saying that people lease because they cant afford the car then yes, paying up front would be a problem. But lets assume someone can afford and has access to cheap cash. Borrowing at 3% vs charging 6% or whatever MF they are charging is another option
Facts are he tried to negotiate a 2% price discount and wanted a lower MF than they offered. They didn't come to an agreement and he left. It's ok that he isn't satisfied. It often happens with everything people consider buying.

I don't understand this statement "You are trying to simplify this to a base case of offer and demand determining prices." "Supply and demand" and in this case the seller (supply) and buyer (demand) don't match, eventually, one way or the other the seller will find a buyer. In the big picture this is how selling/lease prices are determined.

I never said people lease because they can't afford anything but it's highly unlikely he would consider paying the lease in full, up front. I said this because almost no one does it.
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      01-27-2021, 02:56 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e92.997 View Post
I haven't posted in quite some time but would like to chime in here.

I was at Beverly Hills BMW looking at a brand new M5C in British Racing Green, Ceramics, Carmel/black interior with deviated stitching. MSRP was over $140k. To me it was the perfect spec. They didn't want to discount a single dollar from the car. They also didn't want to let me test drive any car without an "appointment". (I wanted to test drive any used M5C on their lot because I hadn't driven one yet)

So then the next day I went and grabbed a 991.2 Turbo.



Most salesmen are simply brainless.
Highly unlikely this was the salesman's decision for either and I doubt they still have the car so who knows if they made the right decision or not on discounting it.
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      01-27-2021, 02:59 PM   #37
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It's not always as simple as supply and demand as some salesmen and sales managers are pretty short sighted. I have seen plenty of times dealers not budging on a certain vehicle when they receive a very reasonable offer near MSRP only for that vehicle to sit for months after to where they end up having to discount it to sell. It comes down most of the time to greed, risk tolerance, and stupidity depending on the day of the month (or even the particular month) you make your offer. Ford dealers botched the Focus RS so badly that they went from being able to sell everyone at MRSP upon delivery to asking for ridiculous ADM and ending up selling most of them at or below MSRP after collecting dust for well over a year.
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      01-27-2021, 03:00 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexFL View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by e92.997 View Post
I haven't posted in quite some time but would like to chime in here.

I was at Beverly Hills BMW looking at a brand new M5C in British Racing Green, Ceramics, Carmel/black interior with deviated stitching. MSRP was over $140k. To me it was the perfect spec. They didn't want to discount a single dollar from the car. They also didn't want to let me test drive any car without an "appointment". (I wanted to test drive any used M5C on their lot because I hadn't driven one yet)

So then the next day I went and grabbed a 991.2 Turbo.



Most salesmen are simply brainless.
Well, this is because it was Beverly Hills BMW. Most BMW dealerships don’t act that way. Even Braman BMW in Palm Beach.
I agree with you. I drove a few miles to the next BMW dealership and they were very nice and let me test drive a used M5C with no sweat.
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      01-27-2021, 03:58 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
It's not always as simple as supply and demand as some salesmen and sales managers are pretty short sighted. I have seen plenty of times dealers not budging on a certain vehicle when they receive a very reasonable offer near MSRP only for that vehicle to sit for months after to where they end up having to discount it to sell. It comes down most of the time to greed, risk tolerance, and stupidity depending on the day of the month (or even the particular month) you make your offer. Ford dealers botched the Focus RS so badly that they went from being able to sell everyone at MRSP upon delivery to asking for ridiculous ADM and ending up selling most of them at or below MSRP after collecting dust for well over a year.
Supply and demand is not simple. It's difficult to know the correct selling price to maximize profits. Most aren't short sighted & finding examples of people that were wrong is very simple, knowing it before it happens is difficult. In this example the dealer thinks he can get MSRP, none of us know if he is correct or not.

I am in heavy equipment sales & nobody knows for sure what the next person will pay. Goal is to get as much as possible for each sale but also not to have equipment sitting and goals are set at the top. This isn't greed but instead good business and you can find it in every product made.

People sell houses every day, some price them too high and they sit, an offer comes along you don't take and you later wish you did, some sell quickly and they could have gotten more. The best realtor in the world only takes an educated guess but isn't certain what will happen.
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      01-27-2021, 05:09 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Supply and demand is not simple. It's difficult to know the correct selling price to maximize profits. Most aren't short sighted & finding examples of people that were wrong is very simple, knowing it before it happens is difficult. In this example the dealer thinks he can get MSRP, none of us know if he is correct or not.

I am in heavy equipment sales & nobody knows for sure what the next person will pay. Goal is to get as much as possible for each sale but also not to have equipment sitting and goals are set at the top. This isn't greed but instead good business and you can find it in every product made.

People sell houses every day, some price them too high and they sit, an offer comes along you don't take and you later wish you did, some sell quickly and they could have gotten more. The best realtor in the world only takes an educated guess but isn't certain what will happen.
No it's not as all new consumer goods come with a calculated MSRP and you added in one industry in real estate that does not and isn't really a comparable. Dealers can sell for more or less than MSRP but everyone that walks into the dealership knows the MSRP and it's a matter of risk tolerance and greed that dealers work with when they choose what price they will let that car go for. I'm not sure what heavy equipment you sell but if you don't have an MSRP (with discount structures for distributors and end users) and are basing your pricing on what the next person will pay I would have to question your business model. If you are selling used equipment then again you are talking apples to oranges.

For the record I don't have any issue with dealers selling at MSRP as that's the recommended price where dealers make fair money. It's more of an American thing to get big discounts on vehicles and as we Canadians don't have the same amount of haggle room. I do however have an issue with ADM as I will never, ever pay it on principal as you are paying more money for absolutely zero value other than filling the pockets of a dealer.

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      01-27-2021, 06:07 PM   #41
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e92.997 View Post
I haven't posted in quite some time but would like to chime in here.

I was at Beverly Hills BMW looking at a brand new M5C in British Racing Green, Ceramics, Carmel/black interior with deviated stitching. MSRP was over $140k. To me it was the perfect spec. They didn't want to discount a single dollar from the car. They also didn't want to let me test drive any car without an "appointment". (I wanted to test drive any used M5C on their lot because I hadn't driven one yet)

So then the next day I went and grabbed a 991.2 Turbo.



Most salesmen are simply brainless.
Good thing they saved you from losing $80k on that M5 in 3 years. Kind of a weird decision between a 991.2 Turbo and an M5 though.
Agreed. Losing $80k never feels good.

But I really, really liked the spec and knew I wouldn't be able to find a used one in the same spec.

I wanted a very fast Daily-able German car that was more comfortable than my G63 or 997. German because I like to put miles on my cars. I hated the suspension on the M5C after the test drive, it was unbearable and not acceptable on bad LA roads. I know most people could care less, but I was also quite disappointed in the BMW seat massaging function (maybe because I was used to my buddy's S class)


The Turbo rides and handles much better than the M5C. (Add DSC sport and it's not even in the same ballpark as far as ride comfort goes)

I didn't need the extra seats or storage space, so just went back to P instead.


Is the regular M5 suspension much more bearable than the M5C? In YouTube reviews everyone says the M5 rides so nicely and the E63 is too harsh. Is the M5C stiffer than E63?
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      01-27-2021, 06:11 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by e92.997 View Post
I haven't posted in quite some time but would like to chime in here.

I was at Beverly Hills BMW looking at a brand new M5C in British Racing Green, Ceramics, Carmel/black interior with deviated stitching. MSRP was over $140k. To me it was the perfect spec. They didn't want to discount a single dollar from the car. They also didn't want to let me test drive any car without an "appointment". (I wanted to test drive any used M5C on their lot because I hadn't driven one yet)

So then the next day I went and grabbed a 991.2 Turbo.



Most salesmen are simply brainless.
Highly unlikely this was the salesman's decision for either and I doubt they still have the car so who knows if they made the right decision or not on discounting it.
You sound like one of the salesmen who work there.

No, they still did a terrible job of trying to make a sale. If they were even nice enough to let me drive a car or let me see that they were genuinely trying to help me find or make a deal on a car that I want, I would have given them a chance. Who knows maybe I would've just paid MSRP for it.

Now they've lost my business completely. I will never shop there nor will I service my cars there.
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      01-27-2021, 06:14 PM   #43
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I forgot how responsive this forum was. I think it's my favorite forum even over Rennlist lol. So much action !

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      01-27-2021, 06:21 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
No it's not as all new consumer goods come with a calculated MSRP and you added in one industry in real estate that does not and isn't really a comparable. Dealers can sell for more or less than MSRP but everyone that walks into the dealership knows the MSRP and it's a matter of risk tolerance and greed that dealers work with when they choose what price they will let that car go for. I'm not sure what heavy equipment you sell but if you don't have an MSRP (with discount structures for distributors and end users) and are basing your pricing on what the next person will pay I would have to question your business model. If you are selling used equipment then again you are talking apples to oranges.

For the record I don't have any issue with dealers selling at MSRP as that's the recommended price where dealers make fair money. It's more of an American thing to get big discounts on vehicles and as we Canadians don't have the same amount of haggle room. I do however have an issue with ADM as I will never, ever pay it on principal as you are paying more money for absolutely zero value other than filling the pockets of a dealer.
This. And passing it off as an interest charge implying that the FI is taking a huge risk in leasing to you....no thanks.
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