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      09-29-2013, 07:22 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KG3356MT View Post
Give me the RS7 and CLS over the M6 anyday. At that price point and given the fact that these are GT cars, the AWD on those cars is a must have for me.
I tend to agree with this point being a "-" for M6. It has to be AWD.
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      09-29-2013, 09:48 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaw
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Originally Posted by KG3356MT View Post
Give me the RS7 and CLS over the M6 anyday. At that price point and given the fact that these are GT cars, the AWD on those cars is a must have for me.
I tend to agree with this point being a "-" for M6. It has to be AWD.
I would take m6 because it is NOT all wheel drive. Then you can still do drifts a la chris harris lol.
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      09-30-2013, 12:32 AM   #47
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Once upon a time, BMW's were winning about 75%+ of every comparo on both objective and subjective measures in major Euro and US testing publications. E60, E46, E90, X5 and all their respective M variants, for literally a decade+. I think the M3 probably won 90% of comparison tests and was not the fastest car in most of them. Bottom line is BMW is losing the driving and ownership experience game, which defined the brand but now is being replicated or perfected by the competition instead or just falling behind in terms of fit/finish. Not only this comparo test but there are about a dozen out of Europe and the US saying the same thing.

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Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
What are you talking about ? The M6 GC had the highest trap speed , was fastest from a roll , and was only .1 sec slower despite not having AWD . They gave it 10/10 for steering and it raped the RS7 and The Benz in the slalom course.
. On top of that it's the lightest and the best looking car as well .
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      09-30-2013, 04:12 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Shaw View Post
This is B-S!!!
How do you rate "Interior & Exterior" Style based on a 0-10 sacle???
This is a total personal taste issue...I NEVER liked Audi because of its awful interior design!!! And how in the world did Audi's fugly rear design became better than 6's sleek style and design???!!!
And am I understanding that the interior design of Audi rates higher than M6??!!!
How can these 2 be a parameter for rating>>> ?!!!
+1,. A big beer for you monsieur for that!

I also dislike Audis interor/exterior design but in such comparo they should compare comfort (as those are limos) but in the first place performance and chasis as the title says - super coupe-sedan comparo...
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      09-30-2013, 05:34 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FogCityM3
Once upon a time, BMW's were winning about 75%+ of every comparo on both objective and subjective measures in major Euro and US testing publications. E60, E46, E90, X5 and all their respective M variants, for literally a decade+. I think the M3 probably won 90% of comparison tests and was not the fastest car in most of them. Bottom line is BMW is losing the driving and ownership experience game, which defined the brand but now is being replicated or perfected by the competition instead or just falling behind in terms of fit/finish. Not only this comparo test but there are about a dozen out of Europe and the US saying the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
What are you talking about ? The M6 GC had the highest trap speed , was fastest from a roll , and was only .1 sec slower despite not having AWD . They gave it 10/10 for steering and it raped the RS7 and The Benz in the slalom course.
. On top of that it's the lightest and the best looking car as well .
It won the power train and chassis category as well as the fun to drive category . If you look at the BS scoring breakdown it loses bc of trunk space , back seat space , and price . Fit and finish was 10/10 . So in other words it delivered the best driving experience yet still lost this comparison . I guess you'd rather have the ultimate poser machine that wins bullshit comparisons and is boring to drive like an AWD audi anything . ( the R8 being the only exception )
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      09-30-2013, 07:46 AM   #50
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Am I the only one that thinks the RS7's rear end looks like a dog poop?
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      09-30-2013, 07:47 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by pkim1079 View Post
I would take m6 because it is NOT all wheel drive. Then you can still do drifts a la chris harris lol.
If somebody can drift an AWD car, it'll be Chris Harris lol
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      09-30-2013, 09:05 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FogCityM3 View Post
Once upon a time, BMW's were winning about 75%+ of every comparo on both objective and subjective measures in major Euro and US testing publications.
tldr version: testing publications? lol

Once upon a time 100% of car magazines were based on a Print only business model with very substantial subscription lists and advertising revenues that can only be dreamed of today. The relationships between the auto makers and these magazines were very tight as the auto makers were dependent to them for market reach. Press events and car shows made little impact compared to the penetration of the magazines.

Auto makers actually listened to the larger magazines and sometimes made changes in their lineups based on that feedback, a good review sold cars.

The magazines shared their subscriber demographics with the auto makers who understood that those demographics were only a portion of their customers actually buying cars. But the market reach was still something that the auto makers couldn't achieve for the same price.

Enter the internet. Auto makers could potentially reach everyone (connected that is) for a fraction of the price. The magazines, at least the ones that survived, soon understood that digital ad revenues evolved to be somewhere between 10 to 16 times cheaper than print advertising and the business model changed to page views at any cost. The number of page views is directly tied to advertising inventory, and any type of controversy increases page views which allows them to sell more digital ads.

That anyone still listens to the crap written today from those magazines is surprising, there are any number of new startups that actually give objective information, or at least specifically identify subjective views. Many of the newer information outlets actually acknowledge that the rest of the world (those that don't buy car magazines) exist. The allegory of a king (or ultimate driving machine) worked well without the immediacy and bi-directional nature of the internet; to say the king is dead presupposes that the king actually existed.

There's a good bit of other changes today also, more stringent regulation and a weaker economy to name a few that have significant impact on the industry.

So to the quoted poster, if you had said that you didn't like something and said why, I'd listen. Perhaps not agree, but I'd listen. But comments based on 0-60 times that are so absurd and done in a way to make people run up page views or contrived rating systems that don't make a lot of sense, no. Why do so many people let others speak for them?

Two last comments: First, yes, I am in the publishing business (thankfully not the auto segment), you're looking through rose colored glasses.

Second, why are the majority of negative comments in this forum from 3 series drivers?
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      09-30-2013, 09:47 AM   #53
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I see what you’re saying, but it seems a little too coincidental that the feedback on recent comparos on BMWs has been resoundingly negative vs the recent past from publications as well as journalists with racing experience, ie Plato, Sabine, Lago, Needel, etc. Also, it’s not like the ad model was changing overnight, as recently as 2012, old BMW models were still winning comparos, just it appears something has changed with the new BMWs and new competition. Also, the reason why 3 series owners get so worked up is because they don’t want the same issues to happen to their cars, which are more performance oriented and was the reason they were bought in the first place. Though it looks like the new M3/M4 is beginning to address some of the very criticisms brought about by some of the publications and enthusiasts alike RE: steering feel, FI throttle response, weight, dynamics, cooling, etc. Also don’t forget that several board members have driven several iterations of old and new M-cars on road and track situations, so I wouldn’t discount those opinions either.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bjayfan View Post
tldr version: testing publications? lol

Once upon a time 100% of car magazines were based on a Print only business model with very substantial subscription lists and advertising revenues that can only be dreamed of today. The relationships between the auto makers and these magazines were very tight as the auto makers were dependent to them for market reach. Press events and car shows made little impact compared to the penetration of the magazines.

Auto makers actually listened to the larger magazines and sometimes made changes in their lineups based on that feedback, a good review sold cars.

The magazines shared their subscriber demographics with the auto makers who understood that those demographics were only a portion of their customers actually buying cars. But the market reach was still something that the auto makers couldn't achieve for the same price.

Enter the internet. Auto makers could potentially reach everyone (connected that is) for a fraction of the price. The magazines, at least the ones that survived, soon understood that digital ad revenues evolved to be somewhere between 10 to 16 times cheaper than print advertising and the business model changed to page views at any cost. The number of page views is directly tied to advertising inventory, and any type of controversy increases page views which allows them to sell more digital ads.

That anyone still listens to the crap written today from those magazines is surprising, there are any number of new startups that actually give objective information, or at least specifically identify subjective views. Many of the newer information outlets actually acknowledge that the rest of the world (those that don't buy car magazines) exist. The allegory of a king (or ultimate driving machine) worked well without the immediacy and bi-directional nature of the internet; to say the king is dead presupposes that the king actually existed.

There's a good bit of other changes today also, more stringent regulation and a weaker economy to name a few that have significant impact on the industry.

So to the quoted poster, if you had said that you didn't like something and said why, I'd listen. Perhaps not agree, but I'd listen. But comments based on 0-60 times that are so absurd and done in a way to make people run up page views or contrived rating systems that don't make a lot of sense, no. Why do so many people let others speak for them?

Two last comments: First, yes, I am in the publishing business (thankfully not the auto segment), you're looking through rose colored glasses.

Second, why are the majority of negative comments in this forum from 3 series drivers?
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      09-30-2013, 09:54 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghetto2315 View Post
Am I the only one that thinks the RS7's rear end looks like a dog poop?
Ha no you are not lol.
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      09-30-2013, 10:07 AM   #55
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When the Comparos subjective components are consistently negative, that tells me that BMW isn't spending as much on advertising with the firm publishing the magazine and editing or writing the Comparo. I recall the opposite about 10-15 years ago. BMW seemed to unfairly win on subjective opinion of the "staffers", really the editor. With the amount of subjective content in this particular Comparo, any of the three cars could have won, depending on the editor's taste or liking.
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      09-30-2013, 10:14 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nor Nehc View Post
1kw = 1.3410HP = 1.3596PS

kw x 1.3410 = HP
412kw x 1.3410 = 552.492HP

kw x 1.3596 = PS
412kw x 1.3596 = 560.1552PS

check the unit converter: http://locost7.info/converter.php


not sure about the rs7, if it is also 412kw, then CAD must made a big mistake or they are just biased
Ok, your formula source may be better than mine, the point is:
412 Audi kw = 412 BMW kw
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      09-30-2013, 10:19 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FogCityM3
I see what youre saying, but it seems a little too coincidental that the feedback on recent comparos on BMWs has been resoundingly negative vs the recent past from publications as well as journalists with racing experience, ie Plato, Sabine, Lago, Needel, etc. Also, its not like the ad model was changing overnight, as recently as 2012, old BMW models were still winning comparos, just it appears something has changed with the new BMWs and new competition. Also, the reason why 3 series owners get so worked up is because they dont want the same issues to happen to their cars, which are more performance oriented and was the reason they were bought in the first place. Though it looks like the new M3/M4 is beginning to address some of the very criticisms brought about by some of the publications and enthusiasts alike RE: steering feel, FI throttle response, weight, dynamics, cooling, etc. Also dont forget that several board members have driven several iterations of old and new M-cars on road and track situations, so I wouldnt discount those opinions either.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bjayfan View Post
tldr version: testing publications? lol

Once upon a time 100% of car magazines were based on a Print only business model with very substantial subscription lists and advertising revenues that can only be dreamed of today. The relationships between the auto makers and these magazines were very tight as the auto makers were dependent to them for market reach. Press events and car shows made little impact compared to the penetration of the magazines.

Auto makers actually listened to the larger magazines and sometimes made changes in their lineups based on that feedback, a good review sold cars.

The magazines shared their subscriber demographics with the auto makers who understood that those demographics were only a portion of their customers actually buying cars. But the market reach was still something that the auto makers couldn't achieve for the same price.

Enter the internet. Auto makers could potentially reach everyone (connected that is) for a fraction of the price. The magazines, at least the ones that survived, soon understood that digital ad revenues evolved to be somewhere between 10 to 16 times cheaper than print advertising and the business model changed to page views at any cost. The number of page views is directly tied to advertising inventory, and any type of controversy increases page views which allows them to sell more digital ads.

That anyone still listens to the crap written today from those magazines is surprising, there are any number of new startups that actually give objective information, or at least specifically identify subjective views. Many of the newer information outlets actually acknowledge that the rest of the world (those that don't buy car magazines) exist. The allegory of a king (or ultimate driving machine) worked well without the immediacy and bi-directional nature of the internet; to say the king is dead presupposes that the king actually existed.

There's a good bit of other changes today also, more stringent regulation and a weaker economy to name a few that have significant impact on the industry.

So to the quoted poster, if you had said that you didn't like something and said why, I'd listen. Perhaps not agree, but I'd listen. But comments based on 0-60 times that are so absurd and done in a way to make people run up page views or contrived rating systems that don't make a lot of sense, no. Why do so many people let others speak for them?

Two last comments: First, yes, I am in the publishing business (thankfully not the auto segment), you're looking through rose colored glasses.

Second, why are the majority of negative comments in this forum from 3 series drivers?
Lago has racing experience? Because he looks real slow vs pobst and admits it. Interesting.
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      09-30-2013, 10:37 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FogCityM3 View Post
I see what you’re saying, ...
A fair response, very cool!

I guess it depends on who and what you read. Since I'm in publishing I tend to read everything from mainstream to the ultra obscure, so I wouldn't agree with 'resoundingly negative', though will admit there is some, and some portion of that is insightfully deserved.

If you've driven a new 328i I don't really see how you can call it performance oriented. Sportier, fun, ... yes. I'd daresay that the overwhelming majority of 3 series purchases have nothing to do with performance. I understand that perspective here on this forum, BMW's perspective is on total sales and if people are truly honest I'd think the 'enthusiast' market feels somewhat slighted by that. Doesn't mean they don't hear you, lot's of tough choices out there today.

For the same reasons I can understand why those with real racing experience would be underwhelmed with some models. I haven't been on a track in 20 years and don't intend on doing so in the near future, but absolutely love my F13 M6. Comfort and luxury AND some portion of a real driving experience in a daily driver!. An E6x M couldn't meet those standards, and I say that with absolutely no disrespect to that platform.

For those that want a performance first car I hope the F82 gets you there, to where you want to be. I just want to be somewhere else, and that doesn't mean I'm not an enthusiast.
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      09-30-2013, 10:49 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaw View Post
I tend to agree with this point being a "-" for M6. It has to be AWD.
I agree, 1-3rd gear I can't put the power to the pavement. All-wheel drive would make this car feel lighter, and achieve what we'd all like to see, a much quicker luxury performance driving machine that doesn't need traction control to keep most drivers from killing themselves on freeway onramps.

I get what some of you guys are saying, I own an M6GC and didn't buy it for shear performance, If I wanted that, I'd have bought a different car. I've owned shear performance cars and I couldn't use it for business or as a daily driver.
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      09-30-2013, 11:06 AM   #60
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Maybe not then lol. From what I've seen, seems to handle the cars better vs journalists, was pretty apparant in the 25 yrs of M video. But yeah, Pobst is another guy who has been kind of anti-BMW, for awhile actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pkim1079 View Post
Lago has racing experience? Because he looks real slow vs pobst and admits it. Interesting.
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      09-30-2013, 11:30 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PackerFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaw View Post
I tend to agree with this point being a "-" for M6. It has to be AWD.
I agree, 1-3rd gear I can't put the power to the pavement. All-wheel drive would make this car feel lighter, and achieve what we'd all like to see, a much quicker luxury performance driving machine that doesn't need traction control to keep most drivers from killing themselves on freeway onramps.

I get what some of you guys are saying, I own an M6GC and didn't buy it for shear performance, If I wanted that, I'd have bought a different car. I've owned shear performance cars and I couldn't use it for business or as a daily driver.
Jesus , the misconceptions about AWD making a car feel better are retarded . It would add a 100 pounds in weight, while making the car understeer like a pig and have numb steering . I've owned a GTR and sold it bc it was boring to drive vs a rear wheel car . The M5/6 are amazing at putting down power as rear wheel drive cars . 11.6 @ 124 vs 11.5 @ 123 for the AWD RS7 . The M6 GC trapped faster. , whooped it fr a roll and was more fun to drive/ had better steering feel bc it wasn't AWD. Coming from a former GTR owner , AWD without traction control does nothing for a car making 500 pound feet to the wheels . My GTR would still try to kill you with TC off and it's the best AWD system in the world .
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      09-30-2013, 12:57 PM   #62
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What Audi exterior aesthetics are they talking about??? The RS7 is hidious looking from the back. It's a non-starter for me.

The CLS looks like a carnival ride with all of the LED lights on it.

The GC is the clear winner.

By the way, they should have tested a GC with competition package. It would have matched, if not beat, the other cars' 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.
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      09-30-2013, 01:08 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaw View Post
I tend to agree with this point being a "-" for M6. It has to be AWD.
Yes 100% agree with you. The M6 coupe can be RWD, but M6GC must be AWD.
RWD makes me hesitated for driving it in GTA winter, makes me worry about I gonna killing myself, Makes me think thousands of times of trading in 650GC for it or not, but can't get answer.
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      09-30-2013, 01:36 PM   #64
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I think whats crazy here is that the rs7 fully loaded is 131k while the s7 fully loaded is 103k.

Close to the same difference with the 650 gc compared to the m6 gc.

That being said, I am probably going to turn in my 650 gc for a m6 gc sooner or later.
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      10-01-2013, 09:10 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghetto2315 View Post
Am I the only one that thinks the RS7's rear end looks like a dog poop?
No, count me in my friend!
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      10-01-2013, 09:11 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by wzj519 View Post
Yes 100% agree with you. The M6 coupe can be RWD, but M6GC must be AWD.
RWD makes me hesitated for driving it in GTA winter, makes me worry about I gonna killing myself, Makes me think thousands of times of trading in 650GC for it or not, but can't get answer.
I like your point of view!
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