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      03-04-2021, 09:31 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
Let's not forget that BEV is the dream of developed countries. But hydrocarbon has a lot higher energy density than BEV batteries. It's also a lot easier to store. When it comes to biodiesel, it's also very easy to produce.

There are remote parts of that world that will not see a power grid for a while. Their most reasonable and practical source of energy will be diesel.

Unless Doc Brown invented Mr. Fusion anytime soon, we will be burning fossil fuel for decades.
This. The majority of the people that drive to work, the people that actually put in the mileage in their cars everyday, are unlikely to be anywhere near a BEV in the foreseeable future until lower cost BEVs become far more common. The benefits of BEVs are questionable when the majority of them are owned by white collar workers who can work from home. It will be so for decades ahead.

A Kia Soul here starts at 21k CAD, a EV version is 42k CAD. Why would I spend double when I am leasing for four years? All the additional costs of ICE won't even be on the radar in that timeframe.

This whole us versus them mentality has to stop. It's fine you enjoy your EV, but let me enjoy my gas guzzling prehistoric dinosaur.
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      03-04-2021, 10:32 AM   #24
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There IS room in the marketplace for both ICE and EVs. The sad thing is many countries are dead set on banishing ICE from the roadways. I believe these countries would eventually not allow anyone to even turn on an an ICE and deem these vehicles as only appropriate for static museum display.
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      03-04-2021, 11:32 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
There's room for both types of propulsion. I see the appeal in both, and I hate the us against them mentality. It's great that people can enjoy the sound and sensations of ICE on the weekend and drive a boring but efficient electric car to work.

The instant torque and acceleration of an electric vehicle is unmatched. I also like the real whirling sound of an electric motor, not the noise that some manufacturers put in (ahem, BMW). But the noises from a straight six BMW are also very enjoyable. The sound my Z51 C7 Corvette made was also intoxicating. I drove through tunnels with the top down just to hear it.
There is definitely room and personally I find the whole BEV vs ICE stuff comical. It seems it's usually just the nutters on each side "debating".

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      03-04-2021, 11:41 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
There's room for both types of propulsion. I see the appeal in both, and I hate the us against them mentality. It's great that people can enjoy the sound and sensations of ICE on the weekend and drive a boring but efficient electric car to work.

The instant torque and acceleration of an electric vehicle is unmatched. I also like the real whirling sound of an electric motor, not the noise that some manufacturers put in (ahem, BMW). But the noises from a straight six BMW are also very enjoyable. The sound my Z51 C7 Corvette made was also intoxicating. I drove through tunnels with the top down just to hear it.
unfortunately what you are describing is what happened when the car replaced the horse. people still ride horses for fun, but its an expensive hobby for very small group of people. granted, an ice car can get your where you need to go just as fast as an EV.... but there will be laws, taxes, and costs associated with ICE cars that will continue to make them less appealing as an A to B car.

we are quite a ways away from this happening. but eventually there will be cheap used EVs on the market. parents will buy them for 16 year olds as a beater as they are much safer than ICE cars and don't need maintenance. very few of those kids will turn back to an ICE vehicle.
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      03-04-2021, 05:11 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicalApex View Post
Why are you lamenting it? You're concerned that as it improves they'll outlaw turning the technology off?
In time, probably.

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Originally Posted by Humdizzle View Post
unfortunately what you are describing is what happened when the car replaced the horse. people still ride horses for fun, but its an expensive hobby for very small group of people. granted, an ice car can get your where you need to go just as fast as an EV.... but there will be laws, taxes, and costs associated with ICE cars that will continue to make them less appealing as an A to B car.
This is kind of what I was alluding to. Years ago I watched Jay Leno review the FCX Clarity. He said prior to the automobile, horses were common and they were treated poorly, etc., but when the auto came around it allowed horses to be free from being "DD's" and they are almost purely recreational. He equated alternative fuels vehicles to that, allowing us to use ICE purely for fun.

In part, I really agree. For 98% of people, ICE is not the way to go because they just don't care what gets them around for the most part. But once they all get to that point do we follow the same thing that happened to horses? Can we ride a horse anywhere? Of course not, that sounds ridiculous.

It might happen after our lifetime, but ICE and driving yourself might be for the track. We can have both now, but progress will inevitably happen.
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      03-04-2021, 06:47 PM   #28
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To be fair, it’s not always EV vs ICE mentality. A lot of times it’s more like the rest of the world wanting the Teslarati to fail
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      03-04-2021, 07:42 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyriian View Post
This. The majority of the people that drive to work, the people that actually put in the mileage in their cars everyday, are unlikely to be anywhere near a BEV in the foreseeable future until lower cost BEVs become far more common. The benefits of BEVs are questionable when the majority of them are owned by white collar workers who can work from home. It will be so for decades ahead.

A Kia Soul here starts at 21k CAD, a EV version is 42k CAD. Why would I spend double when I am leasing for four years? All the additional costs of ICE won't even be on the radar in that timeframe.

This whole us versus them mentality has to stop. It's fine you enjoy your EV, but let me enjoy my gas guzzling prehistoric dinosaur.
BEV costs can be a bit tricky to pin down. Compared to ICE cars there can be a lot of incentives at play that even the playing field or potentially make them cheaper.

For instance, my 530e was cheaper than a similar priced 530i due to the Federal EV tax credit it was eligible for. If I were in NJ I would have also had sales tax waived (that was 8% of my car price). If you combined the two incentives you'd have ~18% off the starting price of a 530 before negotiation. There may also be other local and state incentives that can be layered on like HOV lane access or inspection fee waivers (in PA we require annual emissions inspections that are waived for BEV vehicles). That's all before you consider fuel cost savings as well (assuming at home charging will be cheaper than gas costs).

It is on a car by car basis to figure out if the EV car is much more expensive.

The commuter car is a perfect EV candidate though. Predictable mileage with lots of miles that would benefit from the lower servicing costs and "full tank every morning" realities. etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by celsdogg View Post
In time, probably.
I'm not convinced we'll reach that point anytime soon as it requires a much deeper shift in how we approach responsibility. Who would be responsible for the crash in that case? The car owner? The Manufacturer? What about if the owner didn't keep the car spot less so the sensors were clear?

That is a dream goal for companies like Uber and Lyft as it would eliminate their expenses for drivers, but that would be a nightmare norm for any car manufacturer as it would turn cars into things that fade into the background so buyers wouldn't care for a BMW over a Toyota anymore than they care about who made the public bus people can ride today.

I'm also not convinced people will be ever comfortable turning over 100% of the control for things that can result in death with no ability to assert control. No one wants their life or death to rely solely on algorithms running on a machine.
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      03-05-2021, 10:29 AM   #30
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One thing I haven't considered. If I were to keep my Li Ion battery car until it dies, how do I dispose of it?

It might not be a problem since I trade my car before it runs out of warranty.

But I don't see junk yards lining up to crush Li Ion batteries in these cars.
In the future, would there be a disposition fee?
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      03-05-2021, 10:44 AM   #31
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As EV's gain market share, you will see a raft of charges so governments can make up for the lost gas taxes.
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      03-05-2021, 11:03 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
One thing I haven't considered. If I were to keep my Li Ion battery car until it dies, how do I dispose of it?

It might not be a problem since I trade my car before it runs out of warranty.

But I don't see junk yards lining up to crush Li Ion batteries in these cars.
In the future, would there be a disposition fee?
Good question. My local transfer station accepts Li Ion batteries, both disposable and laptop types, but I can't imagine they are equipped to handle hundreds of pounds of batteries from a car.
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      03-05-2021, 11:57 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmack View Post
Good question. My local transfer station accepts Li Ion batteries, both disposable and laptop types, but I can't imagine they are equipped to handle hundreds of pounds of batteries from a car.
There are more usable materials in batteries than your avg plastic bottle so I would hope the industry will grow to recycle materials instead of drowning them in the ocean.
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      03-05-2021, 12:27 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
As EV's gain market share, you will see a raft of charges so governments can make up for the lost gas taxes.
This is already the case. In my state there is a $100/yr surcharge for EV registration.
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      03-05-2021, 12:43 PM   #35
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EV's are great. I don't get all the complaining. As you say OP, you are free to have your ICE toy, EV commuter, and whatever else you want. Choice isn't a bad thing. Frankly, I wish there were even more EV options out there for these daily-type cars. I would absolutely take an electric X7 over the B58 in ours any day. I don't get any thrills or excitement or whatever BS people proclaim gas brings in that car. Perfect candidate for BEV.
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      03-05-2021, 01:57 PM   #36
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I can imagine junk yards littered with thousands of tons of leaking Li Ion batteries. Usable for sure... Dangerous...absolutely.
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      03-05-2021, 02:24 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
I can imagine junk yards littered with thousands of tons of leaking Li Ion batteries. Usable for sure... Dangerous...absolutely.
Recycling will evolve with the industry. I'm not worried about that.

I would take an EV for my daily chores right away.
If I could find a cheap EV drivetrain, I'd get a small hatchback to convert.
I would still keep one ICE family car for longer trips.
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      03-05-2021, 02:34 PM   #38
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Some untruths being spoken here, the reasonable among us skeptics are not anti EV for the sake of it. There are two issues at play here,

1) Such short term targets sets by governments and manufacturers, i don't see how on EARTH you could ban ICE sales in less than 9 years, i just cannot see it.

2) Charging, people focus on range but the issue is charging. Until this is resolved there will be a need for an alternative which is NOT what is being communicated, the communication is EV or bust by 2030ish.

I will also add that an EV is more hassle for me than an ICE. I have two cars, one garage so one lives outside, my charger would be near the front of the house or in the garage and because of the charging issue I would need to top up EVERY DAMN NIGHT. So in the morning, minus 30, i am out there unrolling an icy cord and every night i have to trudge in and plug it in again. It's just a headache vs filling up once every two weeks.

it all comes back to charging, if we can charge in 5 minutes, game changer, until then, prodominately 2nd cars ina family for pure EV.
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      03-05-2021, 03:22 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
Some untruths being spoken here, the reasonable among us skeptics are not anti EV for the sake of it. There are two issues at play here,

1) Such short term targets sets by governments and manufacturers, i don't see how on EARTH you could ban ICE sales in less than 9 years, i just cannot see it.

2) Charging, people focus on range but the issue is charging. Until this is resolved there will be a need for an alternative which is NOT what is being communicated, the communication is EV or bust by 2030ish.

I will also add that an EV is more hassle for me than an ICE. I have two cars, one garage so one lives outside, my charger would be near the front of the house or in the garage and because of the charging issue I would need to top up EVERY DAMN NIGHT. So in the morning, minus 30, i am out there unrolling an icy cord and every night i have to trudge in and plug it in again. It's just a headache vs filling up once every two weeks.

it all comes back to charging, if we can charge in 5 minutes, game changer, until then, prodominately 2nd cars ina family for pure EV.

1. Short term mandates are stupid.
2. Charging infrastructure is very weak. It also takes a long time and many of them are broken too.

However, It's not that bad at home. But having an inductive charger would be a game changer; like they do for phones. We're used to charging things every night anyway. I have phones, laptops, watch, and vacuum and even robot vacuum (which finds its own charger BTW)

It only takes about 20 seconds to charge or unhook a car charger. Even when it's super cold too. It doesn't have to be neat, just make sure it's out of the way.
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      03-05-2021, 03:49 PM   #40
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But having an inductive charger would be a game changer; like they do for phones.
It will happen:
https://witricity.com/
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      03-05-2021, 04:12 PM   #41
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Let me guess, "new battery tech to revolutionise industry" ...i swear, 20 years been seeing this but all we get is incremental gains.
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      03-05-2021, 05:35 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
Some untruths being spoken here, the reasonable among us skeptics are not anti EV for the sake of it. There are two issues at play here,

1) Such short term targets sets by governments and manufacturers, i don't see how on EARTH you could ban ICE sales in less than 9 years, i just cannot see it.

2) Charging, people focus on range but the issue is charging. Until this is resolved there will be a need for an alternative which is NOT what is being communicated, the communication is EV or bust by 2030ish.

I will also add that an EV is more hassle for me than an ICE. I have two cars, one garage so one lives outside, my charger would be near the front of the house or in the garage and because of the charging issue I would need to top up EVERY DAMN NIGHT. So in the morning, minus 30, i am out there unrolling an icy cord and every night i have to trudge in and plug it in again. It's just a headache vs filling up once every two weeks.

it all comes back to charging, if we can charge in 5 minutes, game changer, until then, prodominately 2nd cars ina family for pure EV.
The harsh limits placed on ICE elimination are solely meant to challenge the industry to start solving the problems related to EV adoption. Everything from charging to manufacturing and so on. As industry doesn't have the luxury of calling the government's bluff. The government does have the luxury of delaying the limits or removing them altogether in 2030 or whenever. So there is no harm in these limits as they are helping to spur innovation.

Charging isn't a problem if you ask me for the scenario you described. Especially in a -30... The EV allows you to come to the car and it is perfectly warm and full of a charge which is a net win. No more needing a remote starter to only end up running your engine in the worst possible conditions for any ICE engine (cold and idling!).

I public street park and I'm not bothered by charging in the slightest (L2 charger on the front of my house).

In the US I'm still convinced PHEVs are the solution for a while as I don't think we'll get the charging infrastructure fully sorted in the next decade especially for apartments or city dwellers...

This was my car after a recent snow storm. Turning on the car's remote climate control to melt the snow made brushing it off a breeze!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
1. Short term mandates are stupid.
2. Charging infrastructure is very weak. It also takes a long time and many of them are broken too.

However, It's not that bad at home. But having an inductive charger would be a game changer; like they do for phones. We're used to charging things every night anyway. I have phones, laptops, watch, and vacuum and even robot vacuum (which finds its own charger BTW)

It only takes about 20 seconds to charge or unhook a car charger. Even when it's super cold too. It doesn't have to be neat, just make sure it's out of the way.
BMW had a wireless charging pilot running in CA for the 530e for a while. Never heard anything more about it though and they aren't shipping it on newer model years so perhaps the power loss was too high for now and it will improve and make it into production. This would be nice for shopping malls and etc. Just pull in, charge, and go.
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      03-05-2021, 09:48 PM   #43
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I wonder how the electric infrastructure will evolve as well. Does driving make a big difference in demand for electricity? Of course it will increase it, but I wonder how big of a sway does consumer car market have in electricity demand. Shipping industry will be burning fossils for a while to come.
Will nuclear power be the answer?

I know there's a push for solar, but it's a huge dilemma for governments whose mandate is to look after all citizens and when those who can afford to install off-grid systems do so, their taxes will have to continue paying for the maintenance of the traditional lines and infrastructure.

If I could have an affordable off-grid solar for my house and EV fleet, sign me up.
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      03-07-2021, 01:39 AM   #44
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The amount of BEV produced will outnumber the electric infrastructure which takes a lot more time and money to develop.
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