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      03-03-2021, 12:48 PM   #1
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There is room for both EVs and ICE vehicles

There's room for both types of propulsion. I see the appeal in both, and I hate the us against them mentality. It's great that people can enjoy the sound and sensations of ICE on the weekend and drive a boring but efficient electric car to work.

The instant torque and acceleration of an electric vehicle is unmatched. I also like the real whirling sound of an electric motor, not the noise that some manufacturers put in (ahem, BMW). But the noises from a straight six BMW are also very enjoyable. The sound my Z51 C7 Corvette made was also intoxicating. I drove through tunnels with the top down just to hear it.
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      03-03-2021, 12:57 PM   #2
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I think it will be worse than petrolheads think. Electric and completely autonomous driving cars (level 5) are nearly (or will be soon) one in the same.

There are performance electric cars that are fast as all hell that you can drive, but I think of it as a clever ruse to lure the petrolhead populous into electric cars. Once everyone is used to that, the autonomy will keep getting better and the desire to drive yourself will wane for all but the most diehard. Once it is all said and done, the performance electric car will only be around for a short time in history.
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      03-03-2021, 01:07 PM   #3
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I'd trade all of the bad drivers in SUV's for autonomous cars. But we can't get the power to stay on, fully autonomous cars are never going to happen. At least in anyone reading this's lifetime.
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      03-03-2021, 01:10 PM   #4
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I alluded to this in another thread, but the EVs I've driven are so sterile feeling. They'll accelerate fast sure, but the lack of sound means there is no drama or visceral feedback to add to the sensation of speed. They have no gear selectors or flappy paddles to play around with, and are incredibly heavy. The ultimate objective of these vehicles, besides being zero-emissions, is to remove the driver from the driving experience. No sensations, pindrop silence, autonomous technology, no buttons/switchgear. All "feedback" from the driving experience is virtualy eliminated.

For the average person who views automobiles as an appliance they are great, but for most enthusiasts they leave much to be desired. After driving a friend's Model 3 the other day I hopped into a Macan S, which obviously is no sports car, but it was such a thrilling vehicle to drive in comparison. Beautiful noises when accelerating, a proper shifter, and tight steering at even low speeds with proper road feel. I went from a cold clinical car into one bursting with emotion in comparison.
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      03-03-2021, 01:30 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by celsdogg View Post
I think it will be worse than petrolheads think. Electric and completely autonomous driving cars (level 5) are nearly (or will be soon) one in the same.
Level 5 AI LOL, I needed a good laugh. Not in our lifetimes.
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      03-03-2021, 02:16 PM   #6
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Let me know when an electric car can win the 24hr of Le Mans.
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      03-03-2021, 02:21 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celsdogg View Post
I think it will be worse than petrolheads think. Electric and completely autonomous driving cars (level 5) are nearly (or will be soon) one in the same.

There are performance electric cars that are fast as all hell that you can drive, but I think of it as a clever ruse to lure the petrolhead populous into electric cars. Once everyone is used to that, the autonomy will keep getting better and the desire to drive yourself will wane for all but the most diehard. Once it is all said and done, the performance electric car will only be around for a short time in history.
I see it differently from you here. I see the improvement of self driving tech to be a net win or enthusiasts and not a net loss. I am not convinced we'll see Level 5 tech yet, but that's another story...

For the bulk of drivers driving is a chore they'd rather not deal with. It is why you see them fumbling around with their phones while driving and doing anything they can to focus on anything else. For those people increased self driving capabilities will remove them from the driving population while creating a lot more "predictable" drivers on the road for the rest of us. No more random lane changes because they dropped their phone and reached for it!

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Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
I alluded to this in another thread, but the EVs I've driven are so sterile feeling. They'll accelerate fast sure, but the lack of sound means there is no drama or visceral feedback to add to the sensation of speed. They have no gear selectors or flappy paddles to play around with, and are incredibly heavy. The ultimate objective of these vehicles, besides being zero-emissions, is to remove the driver from the driving experience. No sensations, pindrop silence, autonomous technology, no buttons/switchgear. All "feedback" from the driving experience is virtualy eliminated.

For the average person who views automobiles as an appliance they are great, but for most enthusiasts they leave much to be desired. After driving a friend's Model 3 the other day I hopped into a Macan S, which obviously is no sports car, but it was such a thrilling vehicle to drive in comparison. Beautiful noises when accelerating, a proper shifter, and tight steering at even low speeds with proper road feel. I went from a cold clinical car into one bursting with emotion in comparison.
This is just due to what you grew up with more than anything. There will be performance EV cars that will bring a lot to the table and offer a great driving experience. It will be a different experience than driving a permanence ICE car and it will evolve over time, but that doesn't mean it will be a universally worse experience.

It reminds me of the shift from Desktop computers to Smartphones. People laughed at the idea that more people would use them over traditional computers and even more laughed that you'd be able to do the same tasks on them that you can on a traditional computer. Fast forward to today and the smartphone is the primary computer for many and can perform many intense computing tasks faster than traditional desktop computers.

Even for ICE performance cars they've sort of peaked. You can only add so much HP to the equation before it becomes useless. You see it all the time here where users complain that these new cars with HP numbers into the stratosphere are "sterile" and "boring" compared to cars with a fraction of the power from ages ago. The reality is those cars are just different. I'm sure the same would have been true if we had these boards in the 70s and you'd have people with their 1940s cars lamenting on how bland those cars were compared to what they grew up with!
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      03-03-2021, 02:45 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
There's room for both types of propulsion. I see the appeal in both, and I hate the us against them mentality. It's great that people can enjoy the sound and sensations of ICE on the weekend and drive a boring but efficient electric car to work.
i also see the need for both. having an electric beater that takes me on boring drives to work and needs almost no maintenance is appealing. the unfortunate part is that once a majority of the population dont feel the need to drive themselves, society will push everyone to be the same. In time, you become a dinosaur and an oddity.

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Originally Posted by LogicalApex View Post
I see it differently from you here. I see the improvement of self driving tech to be a net win or enthusiasts and not a net loss. I am not convinced we'll see Level 5 tech yet, but that's another story...

For the bulk of drivers driving is a chore they'd rather not deal with. It is why you see them fumbling around with their phones while driving and doing anything they can to focus on anything else. For those people increased self driving capabilities will remove them from the driving population while creating a lot more "predictable" drivers on the road for the rest of us. No more random lane changes because they dropped their phone and reached for it!
I hope level 5 never comes along and even if it is after our life time, I still feel badly for those in the future who may not ever get the chance. At the rate that technology grows, i think it could be closer than we would like to think.

technology keeps growing in cars and little of it has to do with actual driving. Evolving entertainment systems in cars is at odds with the entertainment i get out of actually driving a car. They evolve and take driver attention away and in turn we replace the lost attention with systems to fill the gap left. It is a slide that I dont think we will ever get out of.
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      03-03-2021, 03:20 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celsdogg View Post
I hope level 5 never comes along and even if it is after our life time, I still feel badly for those in the future who may not ever get the chance. At the rate that technology grows, i think it could be closer than we would like to think.

technology keeps growing in cars and little of it has to do with actual driving. Evolving entertainment systems in cars is at odds with the entertainment i get out of actually driving a car. They evolve and take driver attention away and in turn we replace the lost attention with systems to fill the gap left. It is a slide that I dont think we will ever get out of.
Why are you lamenting it? You're concerned that as it improves they'll outlaw turning the technology off?

I don't mind it as long as we can turn it off and I don't see that changing. I welcome those who hate driving from being able to cause us problems by looking at their phone or whatever else they love to focus on.
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      03-03-2021, 03:21 PM   #10
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They are coming, but as far as super cars go, I think it will be a long time until they go fully electric, who wants a quiet 488, Huracan, Porsche GT3? The best part of those cars is the sound.

I rather bet on https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2020...ent-22026.html
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      03-03-2021, 03:47 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3_WC View Post
Let me know when an electric car can win the 24hr of Le Mans.
Honestly we are multiple decades from that being a reality.
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      03-03-2021, 04:41 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by LogicalApex View Post
This is just due to what you grew up with more than anything. There will be performance EV cars that will bring a lot to the table and offer a great driving experience. It will be a different experience than driving a permanence ICE car and it will evolve over time, but that doesn't mean it will be a universally worse experience.

It reminds me of the shift from Desktop computers to Smartphones. People laughed at the idea that more people would use them over traditional computers and even more laughed that you'd be able to do the same tasks on them that you can on a traditional computer. Fast forward to today and the smartphone is the primary computer for many and can perform many intense computing tasks faster than traditional desktop computers.

Even for ICE performance cars they've sort of peaked. You can only add so much HP to the equation before it becomes useless. You see it all the time here where users complain that these new cars with HP numbers into the stratosphere are "sterile" and "boring" compared to cars with a fraction of the power from ages ago. The reality is those cars are just different. I'm sure the same would have been true if we had these boards in the 70s and you'd have people with their 1940s cars lamenting on how bland those cars were compared to what they grew up with!
I see your points but I've seen far too often die-hard EV people allude to the smartphone transition or even horse buggy to automobile transition as a way to mock ICE fans. Not saying you are doing this but I find those analogies to be silly and dismissive.

I'm open to being convinced but I have yet to drive an EV that is more entertaining to drive than an ICE competitor. The Taycan is the EV world's best attempt yet but at a curb weight of 5100 lbs there's only so much it can defy physics. R&T did a comparison test between it and the 911 Turbo S and basically said the Taycan is good but isn't even in the same conversation as the 911.
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      03-03-2021, 04:51 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
There's room for both types of propulsion. I see the appeal in both, and I hate the us against them mentality. It's great that people can enjoy the sound and sensations of ICE on the weekend and drive a boring but efficient electric car to work.

The instant torque and acceleration of an electric vehicle is unmatched. I also like the real whirling sound of an electric motor, not the noise that some manufacturers put in (ahem, BMW). But the noises from a straight six BMW are also very enjoyable. The sound my Z51 C7 Corvette made was also intoxicating. I drove through tunnels with the top down just to hear it.
Bingo. EVs have a lot of advantages as does ICE. There should be room for compromise and for both to coexist. But the ban of ICE is what bothers me.

Everything today is in absolutes, nobody is willing to think critically and meet in the middle.
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      03-03-2021, 05:26 PM   #14
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I am for EV's for commuters and appliances. There are a ton of benefits for that market. But for sports cars/sedans, I have yet to find one I like, similar to what Germanauto has said. Even the Taycan Turbo, which while an impressive vehicle, is not enough to sway me after driving one. I hope for future improvements but I would rather have an E63S or equivalent Mid-Size Sports sedan to the Taycan at the moment. Also, the range is still not there yet for me to use when it comes to back roading and the distance I travel up to and through the mountains for fun, nor is the charging network even close outside of superchargers, Electrify America is an embarrassing and unreliable mess.

As for electrifying ICE vehicles, I am for that. Technology such as electric superchargers and e-boost in addition to an ICE engine allows both of the benefits to come in one package while adding unique feel and great character. The engine in my CLS uses this technology and has only added to my experience and made it very unique and fun compared to what any other brand is doing. There is a weight increase but still not as portly as most EV's that have been coming out.

So, I await to see an EV that is truly a compelling sports sedan/car, as of now though, for me, EV's are best for commuter/everyday use, and I'm sure they are fun enough for some people, but I am not one of those people yet.
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      03-03-2021, 06:11 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
I see your points but I've seen far too often die-hard EV people allude to the smartphone transition or even horse buggy to automobile transition as a way to mock ICE fans. Not saying you are doing this but I find those analogies to be silly and dismissive.

I'm open to being convinced but I have yet to drive an EV that is more entertaining to drive than an ICE competitor. The Taycan is the EV world's best attempt yet but at a curb weight of 5100 lbs there's only so much it can defy physics. R&T did a comparison test between it and the 911 Turbo S and basically said the Taycan is good but isn't even in the same conversation as the 911.
I wasn't doing that. My point was more where each of these sit on the curve...

EV cars are like ICE cars of yesteryear. They are heavy and underdeveloped. They'll get lighter and more engaging to drive as the engineering and refinement improves.

That said, even a refined EV car of the future will drive differently then our currently refined ICE cars. Some parts of that will be better and some parts of it will be worse I'm sure.

Kind of like Android vs iOS I guess. They are both smartphones with unique benefits and problems that make them different. Not exactly better or worse. Different. In individual case they can stack up to better or worse though.
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      03-03-2021, 10:03 PM   #16
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Teslas are as common as Toyotas where I live.
No longer a , "Wow, a Tesla!" response.
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      03-04-2021, 06:23 AM   #17
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there are so many Tesla about now and not enough charging stations. The UK is going to hit a point soon where there is to many on the roads for the charging infrastructure
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      03-04-2021, 07:05 AM   #18
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The amount of BEV produced will outnumber the electric infrastructure which takes a lot more time and money to develop.

I bought such an electrified car. It's primarily electric with an enormous range extender gasoline engine. Granted it weights 500 pounds more than a typical car of its size but the trade off is significant. Unfortunately it was abandoned due to the complexity of the vehicle and lower profit margin.

I'm enjoying the benefits of 100 MPGe. Being able to run full electric but not be shackled to charging stations or need to plan my route around them.

If my daily commute wasn't so long I would never have to use gasoline at all.
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      03-04-2021, 07:19 AM   #19
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I agree that switching to hydrogen fuel would make more sense than replacing the entire ICE infrastructure, but I can't help but think what my garage tools would/will look like with an affordable EV fleet. Change air suspension components that fail, change rubber bushings, cabin filter, A/C recharge, replace a few broken interior pieces... hmm. That's it? The rest will be software updates and electronic components replaced.

It will be interesting to see how the car enthusiast crowd changes with the EV push. Some of us will switch to EV and while ICE classics will be around, but there will be less and less of them. The new generation is not interested in cars as much as new car sales decline shows. So, I wonder when will the last spark plug ignite that final ounce of petrol.
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      03-04-2021, 07:46 AM   #20
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My position has always been that these countries proclaiming no ICE at 2030 or whatever will have to back away from that promise.

I see relatively even market share between EV, ICE and hybrid until they get EV charging down to under 10 minutes, ideally under 5, EV cannot dominate the market, it's impossible.
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      03-04-2021, 08:09 AM   #21
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Let's not forget that BEV is the dream of developed countries. But hydrocarbon has a lot higher energy density than BEV batteries. It's also a lot easier to store. When it comes to biodiesel, it's also very easy to produce.

There are remote parts of that world that will not see a power grid for a while. Their most reasonable and practical source of energy will be diesel.

Unless Doc Brown invented Mr. Fusion anytime soon, we will be burning fossil fuel for decades.
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      03-04-2021, 08:14 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
There's room for both types of propulsion. I see the appeal in both, and I hate the us against them mentality. It's great that people can enjoy the sound and sensations of ICE on the weekend and drive a boring but efficient electric car to work.

The instant torque and acceleration of an electric vehicle is unmatched. I also like the real whirling sound of an electric motor, not the noise that some manufacturers put in (ahem, BMW). But the noises from a straight six BMW are also very enjoyable. The sound my Z51 C7 Corvette made was also intoxicating. I drove through tunnels with the top down just to hear it.
The "us against them" mentality has transcended just about everything. If we could find some common ground on many things we'd all be much better off.
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