Ride Quality On My 640d Msport

[13 NF]

Hi
Got loaner from BMW UK with VDC, its very difficult to say if its an improvement.

The VDC appears to not really deal with pot holes and rough road surfaces, and the car is still transferring all road imperfections through the car.

On the motorway around 80-90mph its still unpleasant, my daily commute is just not great in these so called Gran Coupes.

This is the second car I have driven with the same characteristics, its poor with all the BMW Hype.

I noticed TOPGEAR magazine has one on there fleet, and in this months magazine TOM FORD who is driving it, has mentioned the 'crashing over pot holes' and is hinting at bigger issues.

The car is not in anyway a sporty drive given its limited dynamics, due to either wheel combo, suspension set up and more compact seating to allow for that sleek look.

All show and no go!

Its a shame, back to dealer for there thoughts, BMW have already suggested they are not interested blaming my previous car choice!! I.E BMW's ??????

But I didn't expect too much support from those guys.

Its a big let down

[Holland Harry]

Originally Posted by 13 NF

Hi
Got loaner from BMW UK with VDC, its very difficult to say if its an improvement.

The VDC appears to not really deal with pot holes and rough road surfaces, and the car is still transferring all road imperfections through the car.

On the motorway around 80-90mph its still unpleasant, my daily commute is just not great in these so called Gran Coupes.

This is the second car I have driven with the same characteristics, its poor with all the BMW Hype.

I noticed TOPGEAR magazine has one on there fleet, and in this months magazine TOM FORD who is driving it, has mentioned the 'crashing over pot holes' and is hinting at bigger issues.

The car is not in anyway a sporty drive given its limited dynamics, due to either wheel combo, suspension set up and more compact seating to allow for that sleek look.

All show and no go!

Its a shame, back to dealer for there thoughts, BMW have already suggested they are not interested blaming my previous car choice!! I.E BMW's ??????

But I didn't expect too much support from those guys.

Its a big let down

I don't know mate! I drive this Gran Coupe for a year now with 20 inch wheels! At least in Holland I cannot say I have this experience. At first I had problems with the handling in the corners but when I changed to normal tyres (Michelin Pilot Supersport) it rides ok! You have to take in account that the car is almost as long and heavy as a 7 series. So it will never be like a 3 series coupe. But if you find the ride of a Gran Coupe hard on potholes. You probably never drove a BMW E60 5 series with runflat. IN comparison to the E60 the Gran Coupe is very soft on the suspension. With normal tyres and in comfort plus mode the car drives almost like a Cadillac from the 70's! If the potholes is the problem in the UK, drive a Merc with 16inch tyres and you wil not have a problem! At least not in a straight line.

[13 NF]

Hi Harry

Thanks for you comments, I actually owned 4 E60s all with run flats, and cannot agree with that opinion here in the UK, Yes E60 drove hard but that was rewarded with good dynamics. We actually used my brother in-laws 07 plate car last week to compare the ride, I have to say his 130k miler was better!
Yes I agree its a big car, but surely if its a reskined 7 someone should tell the marketing people!
My car history with BMW is a bit mad, in the last 8 years I have had 16 cars from BMW some were for my wife.
A brief list X3,X5,X6,X6M,5(E60)6 Coupe(Last one)7(F01)M3 & Finally 6 GC
So I feel I understand the cars better with a history like mine.
But I will have to agree with you it could be the combo of 20 inch wheels runflats and the size and weight.But then why design a car like that?
I have to say its when you drive the car normally it irritates the most.
You must have smooth roads over there.
Thanks for your input anyway
NF

[13 NF]

Thanks Dryce

A reskinned stretched 5/6 hybrid shunt.

No wonder it vibrates!!!!

Thanks

[Mentos]

Have you tried a smaller alloy with conventional tyre? I know BMW have almost entirely switched to run flats now, but hopefully your dealer can dig out a set of 18s with conventional tyres for you to try. Its got to be worth a try, because the alternatives are taking a big depreciation hit or living with an expensive car you don't like :/

[13 NF]

Hi Mentos

Yes your right, I think this is the next move, but not on 18s.on 20s.

Spoke to the DP today, and he is speaking to PUMA? About wheel/tyre combo.

Just hope its not the start of the great customer run around, to be honest at this rate it will be time to change the car.

Your are correct in your assumption the depreciation is big, and the thought of driving round in the newly named bone shaker is depressing. But if I don't get real assistance I am off!

I drive down the M58,M6 &M65, 2-3 days a week and the quality of ride is shocking.

I think its the motorway that hacks me of the most, then the little drive home through the bends ends up with the car crashing over the road imperfections.

Hows yours and what did you have before.

[Mentos]

Im actually really enjoying mine. Its also an Msport, on 20s with run flats and generally I drive around in sport or comfort (never needed to go to comfort+).

However, I only cover ~500/month and mostly on routes I know very well (M4, A40, M40, my local A/B roads). So road conditions are largely second nature to me, I know where I can push, I know where the bad pot holes are, I know where there are adverse cambers/etc which will make a car with wide wheels feel a bit skittish for a second. Having said that, when I do encounter a surprise I'm not too perturbed. My only concern with potholes is the recent instances of weak BMW alloys, rather then excessive disturbance to my skeleton. If I encounter a rough patch of road I'm content with the ride in comfort. And as long as I get enough feedback I don't worry too much about the odd skittishness.

Over the past couple of years our mileage has reduced drastically. So we've kept the hatch (Golf) and the GC replaced my 3 and Gallardo. Essentially I'm the prime target market for these four door "coupes". Someone thats been dragged kicking and screaming into a sensible car, but cant quite make the full leap . The alternatives were the A7 or XJ (CLS and Panamera are 4 seat only, so kind of defeat the object of buying a sensible car IMO). The 6GC was the clear winner for me on Aesthetics and driving dynamics, but the XJ probably has the edge on comfort (no where near as wafty as the old XJ though). The Audi (Sline) was probably the worst, particularly cabin noise at motorway speeds (think the hatch may have been the culprit).

I don't find the GC to be any worse then 3/5/Audis on 20's with MSport/Sline suspension. I find Merc E's to be better in this respect, but I dont like the driving dynamics, so would probably go the Jag route if I wanted a more pliant ride. But of course its down to the roads you drive on, how you drive and what your expectations are.

I hope changing the wheels/tyres does the trick for you. Although I think realistically you might have to go with a bit more rubber

[BillCB]

I'm with Mentos. I have the 20 inch wheels riding on Dunlop run flat rubber and have no complaints at. Perhaps the difference is in Canadian roads, though I doubt it.

My GC is quiet and much smoother than my 645Ci (19 inch, run flats). It handles bumps and curves beautifully, though it isn't as "tossable" as the 645. Only on serious potholes do I get a jarring "limit of suspension" thump.

I'm very happy; I do take care to keep inflation levels EXACTLY as recommended.

Bill

[mlai]

I am wiht BillCB and Mentos. I am on 20" non-runflats (PSS) and the stock 650i GC setup is way better than the F10 550i, even with AD/DHP, ACS lowering springs. The GC rides firmer, and behaves like a sport sedan and not a boat like F10. And steering on the GC is real sharp and accurate, compared to the F10. All in all, GC feels closer to a 3-series in local hilly back roads and the 5 feels more like I am driving a small van. And I had no problem with sub-par road conditions with the F06. Yes, I feel more road imperfections in the F06, but then I expected it as it is way sportier than the F10. And I do use the comfort+ when I have my little girls in the back seats.....

As for the rear strange feeling, I can't speak to it as I have IAS, which sort of complicate things, but it is absolutely essential in tight spaces......

[13 NF]

Hi Guys
Yes I think its your roads, I can only say how I find it.

But mine, just not great, I understand what you are saying about the 5, and I was tempted to go for one of those, because the seat is so comfortable and in my opinion soaks up of the road imperfections.

But to be honest I am fed up totally, if I could, I would have my money back. I would change brand and take my chances elsewhere. If this is the best BMW can do in the UK I would rather not drive one.

I had an e-mail from the dealer today, they said they would look at a part exchange on a cost basis. This is good of them, BMW UK will not help they would be admitting a flawed car!(Understandable)

I will keep you posted.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by 13 NF

I had an e-mail from the dealer today, they said they would look at a part exchange on a cost basis. This is good of them, BMW UK will not help they would be admitting a flawed car!(Understandable)

I will keep you posted.

But is it flawed, or is it expectations and trying to run 20" RFTs in the UK?

I know I could never dream of trying such an unpractical wheel on my roads, unless I was prepared to compromise on ride quality.

I'd be on basic fit 19" wheels and prepared to fit normal rubber if the ride was too compromised. Been there with E91 3-series so fully understand the limits of RFTs and how normal rubber gives us back a real BMW. Simply put some combinations have too tight a working envelope, when we drive on poor roads.

My F11 with Adaptive Drive and 18" RFTs works well, even on poor roads, just the occasional bit of unsettled ride over really poor surfaces. (Pushing the limits of even an 18" RFT). But the car has the ability to have a near magic carpet ride quality. IMO it isn't the technology in these cars, more the choice of specification. Many a BMW is ruined with the wrong wheels.

HighlandPete

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Dryce

Mine is on 18s with RFTs. Ride isn't that good IMO.

My recollection from trying 20" is that the 18" wheels don't offer much improvement.

Car is fine at speed (>50mph) - but lower speeds (<40mph) it just isn't good enough. It doesn't help that when the front passenger seat is unoccupied that it judders and vibrates.

Now in the UK 18s are 'standard' on the GC but almost everybody goes for 19s or 20s. If even the 18s aren't that good then the customer basically doesn't have much option but to not buy the car at all in UK.

I would be interested to know how different the suspension setup is on the 6 compared with the 5 - because the underlying platform seems to be pretty identical.

Dryce, are you running Adaptive Drive?

As far as I understand the 5 and 6-series suspensions are virtually the same, calibrations may be different, but the hardware is the same design. One area where the F11 is different is the rear suspension with air springs, that is an added variable, as spring rate changes with load. So there is a bit more refinement at the rear end at low loads, compared to a fixed metal spring.

As a general observation of BMW over the years, they are designed for a full load and optimised to be driven at speed. So low speed ride on anything but good roads does mean we lose a bit of refinement. This is often commented on by suspension engineers. Big rims and low profile tyres just make this worse.

Adaptive Drive widens that envelope and for me makes the 5-series touring a superb riding car on 18" rims. And I'm not an easy man to please (ask my garage and BMW Technical) in getting a good ride and handling balance on poor UK road surfaces. I had to modify my E91 3-series to make it acceptable.

The 'modes' AD uses, clearly set the optimum damping on the mid setting. My 'toggle' modes are comfort, normal and sport. (Some models have comfort+ comfort and sport). Damping is near perfect over a range of road conditions in my 'normal' mode. Comfort gives that slightly under damped feeling, as you'd expect, and sport swings to a slightly over damped feel against spring rate. But all three base modes well tuned to the active dynamics.

Why you guys are finding the GC deficient is surprising, something is in conflict. From my experience with BMW and RFTs the tyres are amplifying road imperfections, rather than helping reduce them.

HighlandPete

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Dryce

Bog standard suspension.

On the 6er if you don't have Comfort+ then I can't see how you would have variable dampers - AIUI the two come together.

The GC is very rigid. So anything that gets past the suspension is basically going to get into the cabin. Hence problems elsewhere with seat rattles / vibration.

The real problem in my mind is that I can't reconcile the price of the 6GC in the UK against the actual package given the suspension 'deficiencies'.

The rear suspension feels like it jumps (I've seen the word 'tramping' used in forums) in tight low speed corners.

Now for the money that's simply just not good enough.

I sense the biggest issue with the GC is the purchase cost and where it sits for ride quality in standard form... I understand that. But this is nothing new with BMW, we often have to buy the options or compromise. I was driving an E39 540i touring (£50k back in 1998), superb in every way including the ride and handling on M-tech suspension of the period. I went to buy an E61 535d touring, the example I tried was an M-sport and the suspension was rock hard and totally spoiled by RFTs. Not at all in the class I was used to, so passed, as without modding it there was no way it would be acceptable.

When I bought my E91 I went through a lot of test drives to try and find a balanced setup. But even after I thought I'd got it right after my 'calculated' choice, it still didn't work on my local roads. One day I was in a Ford Mondeo Zetec on my local patch and it just blew my 330d away on how it was composed and handled on sport suspension. Made it a faster car 'point to point' against my car, which could be very nervous indeed. I decided I either had to trade it out or do something about it. Yes, a 330d at double the cost of the Ford was just not anything like a driver's car by comparison.

Changed the dampers and the tyres and got a real BMW once again, massive difference and much more mature a drive in all ways. We don't expect to have to do that on a BMW, but that was the reality due to the OEM setup not giving the composure and ride quality I wanted.

The jumping about feeling is most definitely wheel induced, RFTs to be more precise. Seen it so often on RFT shod BMWs.

So this time around I did even more homework, and only AD was going to give me the road feel I was after, and also limited the wheels to 18" for summer use and 17" for winter tyres. I'm pleased I got it right this time.

BTW, I'm over on BMWLand and had been involved in many a discussion on BMW suspension and wheel/RFT combinations.

HighlandPete

[13 NF]

Hi Dryce

Absolute spot on!!!!

Thanks for your really valuable input, I totally agree, your comment on the' drive home' is exactly my experience.

I walk up to my car after a hard day fire fighting!(Not Literally)

I love its looks and interior is fab, and for a moment I forget the considerable issues.

But then I suddenly wake up after a few moments, as the car crashes over the slightest of road surfaces and the vibration goes through the car, seats and my spine!

My car to has the seat issue too, but it just doesn't stop there the car transfers every thing , I find my motorway journey home a chore!

And it is partly price, but some how its more to me, I feel BMW has taken me for a mug. My dealer DP described this car as a HALO car. I have had enough with this car and really feel BMW has lost any future business of mine.

HIGHLAND PETE

I think you have mentioned many good points and your experience is vast.

But I am sorry I just don't like the smaller wheel option and the look is not for me. I recently drove a 520d M Sport with 19s and RFT and it was better, I felt the seat appeared to help as they are just so comfortable in the 5.

I drove another 640d with VDC and I really could not tell to much difference, I have been told the rear suspension bits are different to the 5 and the 6 coupe, I just don't know how true this is.

As Dryce has covered so well, its just a let down, I bet the LCI of this car will be interesting.

My problem is that an exchange is being hampered by huge depreciation, and the usual lack of interest from BMW.

I would say this car has really put me off top end BMW's no longer will I waste my cash on this car manufacturer.

Thanks once again for your input.

[Eli2311]

Hi 13NF,

New to this forum so excuse me for going straight in.

I purchased an approved used 640d (67 plate) last September with 20" wheels and RFT Tyres from a BMW dealer. I wish I had read this forum beforehand. Since purchase I have had issue with ride quality just as mentioned.

The dealers all put it down to wheels and tyres which for me just doesn't stack up.

I went and got my wheels, straightened, balanced and the vehicle tracked.

In the process of doing this I was given some loan 18" 5 series wheels with non-RFTs and the ride quality was a tiny bit softer which I was not surprised by.

But to say that this car doesn't live up to expectations is an understatement.

Can I ask what you did in the end to live with the car while you had it?

Also I have kept a close eye on tyre pressures and balance etc. Still not a great ride and the steering wheel continues to have minor vibration on the motorway between 60-80 and at low speeds and around corners, just as you mentioned the skipping of the rear end.

I also had issues with wheels and tyres and brake which were all replaced within the first 5 months.

Any help would be appreciated thanks.

Eli2311

[arucano]

"But to say that this car doesn't live up to expectations is an understatement."
What were your expectations? Did you test drive the car before buying it? It is very surprising that you say that the 20"RFT was not much different than the 18" NRFT. There is normally a noticeable difference. What tire pressures were you running?
Although I do not have a 640, the six series are not known for their "soft ride".

[rasa bmw]

i hate my runflat 20's,,but not enough to get them off asap,,ride is ok and nice on long trips on smooth roads.,,just little pot holes are like driving through a ditch ha ha ,,and cornering quite hard on say a 40 mph bend,,not great and feel a little skippy,,will be going no run flat when they are worn or im in need of a refurb,,which will probably be next week as one of my locking bolts is proper stuck on,,destroyed the locking key,,waiting on new one then get other bolts off,then try get the stuck one off,if not will have to weld a nut on it and that will mean a refurb,,which i needed anyhow as wheels have a few marks here and there

[bimmer12]

That doesn't echo most of the opinion/experience on here. Most of those going from RFT to non-RFT alone noticed a significant difference, myself included. Going from 20" RFT to 18"non-RFT, I don't know how you only felt a "tiny bit" of a difference.

Similar to what rasa bmw posted above, even when I had the RFTs, the ride quality overall didn't ruin the car by any means. Yes going over bump and potholes (of which there are many where I live) was a shockingly unpleasant experience, but the rest of drive wasn't so bad. Certainly did not feel any vibrations. Perhaps there are other issues at play.

[rasa bmw]

Originally Posted by bimmer12

That doesn't echo most of the opinion/experience on here. Most of those going from RFT to non-RFT alone noticed a significant difference, myself included. Going from 20" RFT to 18"non-RFT, I don't know how you only felt a "tiny bit" of a difference.

Similar to what rasa bmw posted above, even when I had the RFTs, the ride quality overall didn't ruin the car by any means. Yes going over bump and potholes (of which there are many where I live) was a shockingly unpleasant experience, but the rest of drive wasn't so bad. Certainly did not feel any vibrations. Perhaps there are other issues at play.

yeh,,id check control arms bushings,,had it a few times on other bmw's,,especially under braking

[Eli2311]

Hi all,

Thanks for quick responses and apologies for the delay in my reply.

In answer to some of your points I did test drive the car when I first got it and felt fine for a first time drive, regrettably I did not spend enough time in the car checking over so many things and thought being that it was in warranty and only had 9k miles on the clock things would be easily fixable should there be any issues. I have 20" RFT and run 2.4 Bar at front and 2.6 Bar at back as per BMW vehicle guidelines.

Here was my buying journey since September ;

1) Glove box misaligned - Fixed at dealer a month after purchase
2) Front facia speaker broken - Fixed & replaced at dealer a month after purchase
3) Mist build up in driver side tail light - Not fixed assumed ok by dealer - told it was a common fault and agreed as I had the same on a previous 3 and a previous 5 series
4) Centre console storage button surround/plastic silver trim loose - fixed
5) Driver seat trim fallen off, open clip and showing tape from previous fix - Delivered loose, I pushed it back in myself and it is now fully retained and in working order

All above quite easily fixed and sorted at dealer or by myself, this is where is gets interesting;

6) Major issue with heavy vehicle judder under braking, I noticed after careful inspection the front passenger side wheel had previously heavily been refurbished and you could tell because the M badge in dent as missing and the spokes had more detail then the other wheels as if the whole face was heavily skimmed so assumed a heavy in balance in wheels. Turns out it was a brake issue - All 4 corners brakes and discs replaced along with a new front wheel judder under braking gone but the ride never felt right and I just assumed it was all to do with this issue, seemed not after a few weeks of living with the car I could still feel the car skipping all over the place especially in corners, at low speeds it was almost like there were bulges in the tyres causing an imbalanced ride.

After this I decided it was time again to get the wheels tracked and balanced once more having already done it previously, I did so and no improvements.

Took vehicle to dealer and was informed 3 of 4 wheels were buckled, but all 4 tyres were good, so I thought this was progress as I know BMW wheels these days are made very soft, some one once told me this is due to different a front and rear wheel suppliers, which could make sense has they would have to soften the spec so both suppliers could fit into the same spec window, but I had no hard info and assumed it was hearsay.

Decided I would get the wheels straightened, found a great place with positive reviews and personal recommendations in Ealing London. These guys would also give me a loan set which would help me determine if it was a wheels and tyres issue. I got 18" wheels and tyre set and for the most of it of course I expected a softer ride and I got that, but when I say I didn't see much difference it is because the skipping in corners and the straight line steering skip/vibration were all still there.

This car has been assessed so many times for long periods by good BMW master techs and they all have said nothing seems wrong. 20" RFTs back on and I still always fell the wheels skipping over each other and even on straight roads the steering wheel picks up on even a stone in the ride like it's a mountain. I was not expecting a soft ride from 20" RFTs and in most cases I prefer a sportier feel but its not the "ride" per-say that is the issue its the whole experience and balance of the car it feels so off.

Hence my quite passionate comment about my expectations, I mean I didn't think it would be a Merc on 18s but I expected a more dynamic ride from a BMW.

Sorry if I sound in-experienced but I do feel like I have a good grasp of cars and I do work in the industry so I'm not that inept I just can't seem to figure out whats wrong.

Thank you all for your input and help.

[rasa bmw]

brake judder is usually control arm bushes,,had it so many times on lot's of bmw cars.get someone to look at your front wheels while driving very slow,,dab brake pedal,,the wheel will jolt backwards when control arm bushes need replacing,,the jolt is subtle in most cases as ya going very slow.

[Eli2311]

Originally Posted by rasa bmw

brake judder is usually control arm bushes,,had it so many times on lot's of bmw cars.get someone to look at your front wheels while driving very slow,,dab brake pedal,,the wheel will jolt backwards when control arm bushes need replacing,,the jolt is subtle in most cases as ya going very slow.

Thanks rasa BMW - I had to change the control arms ages ago on an E46 3 series but the Judder is pretty much gone and I would be surprised if the control arm bushes were a problem at such ow mileage. No harm in checking though.

I do believe the judder has since reduced and they put it down to a rear brakes disc and pad in-balance.

Thanks again.