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      05-30-2022, 07:01 PM   #463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post

So pretty much ferrari screwed up so hard redbull benefitted, redbull didn't have some master class strategy that put them in the lead they just inherited it.
That's not true.
PER already passed LEC with his first stop to inters; this was an undercut that worked very good. (PER came in in lap 17, LEC in lap 18, PER passes LEC when he is in the pitlane)
PER later passed SAI when SAI came in for slicks. (SAI didn't come in for inters and thus lost time)

Only VER profited from the Ferrari screw up; in that ~4-5 sec LEC lost with the pitincedent, Max could pass LEC, but that PER won the race was pure pitstop strategy. When to come in and when not to.

So without that Ferrari screw up the outcome would be
1. PER
2. SAI
3. LEC
4. VER
And then probably with team orders SAI and LEC would have swapped places (or LEC might have just come on track before SAI). But the ferrari screw up resulted only for LEC to loose 1 place. That person happened to be Max.
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      05-30-2022, 08:32 PM   #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
That's not true.
PER already passed LEC with his first stop to inters; this was an undercut that worked very good. (PER came in in lap 17, LEC in lap 18, PER passes LEC when he is in the pitlane)
PER later passed SAI when SAI came in for slicks. (SAI didn't come in for inters and thus lost time)

Only VER profited from the Ferrari screw up; in that ~4-5 sec LEC lost with the pitincedent, Max could pass LEC, but that PER won the race was pure pitstop strategy. When to come in and when not to.

So without that Ferrari screw up the outcome would be
1. PER
2. SAI
3. LEC
4. VER
And then probably with team orders SAI and LEC would have swapped places (or LEC might have just come on track before SAI). But the ferrari screw up resulted only for LEC to loose 1 place. That person happened to be Max.
Your lap counts are completely incorrect, Perez came in on lap 16 and it took Leclerc 2 laps to respond - I.e. he pitted on lap 18.... Perez overtook him on the pit exit aka at the start of lap 19.



This was also around the time when the track had dry lines forming and sainz thought it would be full dry soon. So Ferrari botched the response, and could've went for the overcut and just kept pushing on the wets till it was time for slicks, because there is almost zero chance of overtaking in Monaco even if Checho caught up. But by then Leclerc would've had a pit stop in hand. But no, Ferrari botched the response to Perez by waiting 2 laps and botched the switch to slicks.


Redbull did absolutely nothing spectacular in strategy, they did only standard things that any team does when behind and that's either undercut or overcut, Ferrari just messed up.
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      05-30-2022, 09:18 PM   #465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Your lap counts are completely incorrect, Perez came in on lap 16 and it took Leclerc 2 laps to respond - I.e. he pitted on lap 18....
Really? depends on how you're counting apparently. These are counted by which lap the race leader is in, which is usual.
And it didn't take LEC 2 laps to respond, but 1 lap and a part of a lap (as he was already past start/finish when PER pitted).
So LEC passed start /finish 1 time before he pitted after PER did.





Anyway, you're looking for excuses to proove your point....
this is not important at all and certainly not worth to label it "completely incorrect"...

Quote:
Redbull did absolutely nothing spectacular in strategy, they did only standard things that any team does when behind and that's either undercut or overcut, Ferrari just messed up.
PER won not because ferrari messed up, but because he was better. Him coming in earlier than LEC gave him the pass. Thats superior strategy.
You say to "either undercut or overcut"...what's that kind of an argument?!?
summing up both possibilities. Don't you understand that only one of them works in favour at that time? The strategy is choosing the right one at the right time. RB chose the right one. Ferrari the wrong one.

Ferrari messing up with the double box gave Max 3rd, but wouldn't have made single difference for PER winning.
Keeping out on wets and go to slicks in 1 go also wasn't the right strategy.... PER overtook SAI that way.
So PER/RB won through:
1. choosing the right time to go to intermediates (passing LEC)
2. choosing the right tyre strategy (passing SAI)

So beating ferrari's strategy not once, but twice.
I call that superior.
But you're as usual the Debbie Downer when RB wins...
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      05-30-2022, 10:04 PM   #466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Really? depends on how you're counting apparently. These are counted by which lap the race leader is in, which is usual.
And it didn't take LEC 2 laps to respond, but 1 lap and a part of a lap (as he was already past start/finish when PER pitted).
So LEC passed start /finish 1 time before he pitted after PER did.





Anyway, you're looking for excuses to proove your point....
this is not important at all and certainly not to label it "completely incorrect"...



PER won not because ferrari messed up, but because he was better. Him coming in earlier than LEC gave him the pass. Thats superior strategy.
You say to "either undercut or overcut"...what's that kind of an argument?!?
summing up both possibilities. Don't you understand that only one of them works in favour at that time? The strategy is choosing the right one at the right time. RB chose the right one.

Ferrari messing up with the double box gave Max 3rd, but wouldn't have made single difference for PER winning.
Keeping out on wets and go to slicks in 1 go also wasn't the right strategy.... PER overtook SAI that way.
So PER/RB won through:
1. choosing the right time to go to intermediates (passing LEC)
2. choosing the right tyre strategy (passing SAI)

So beating ferrari's strategy not once, but twice.
I call that superior.
But you're as usual the Debbie Downer when RB wins...
I'm showing post race analyzed lap counters from the F1 recap, and what post race analysis said. There's always a chance the live lap counter is off a bit especially when the pitlane and start finish line is close.

In fact F1 published data supports my conclusion:

https://www.formula1.com/en/results....p-summary.html


Look at the time of day as well, Leclerc comes in over 3 mins after Perez. That's concrete proof it was 2 laps later, no need for live video feed which again can have lap counters updated slowly. Zero "excuses" or emotions or team loyalty to prove my point just cold hard facts and data.



Debbie Downer? More like you're over hyping every little thing redbull does, I'm always realistic no matter what the team. I don't jump to conclusions, just like when Merc got the fastest trap speed last race, I didn't jump to conclusions because the data looked like an anomaly.

Did I say it was a bad strategy? No, I said it wasn't anything spectacular, just an under cut that worked compounded by Ferrari screwing up by a 2 lap late response. When you're on a track where over taking isn't possible the strategy is over cut or undercut to try and gain track position, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't, nothing special just common strategy.
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      05-30-2022, 10:13 PM   #467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
That's concrete proof it was 2 laps later,
No, 1 lap and part of a lap (9/10 or so; whatever his lead was on PER prior to pitting; 6-10 sec or so).
LEC passed start/finish 1 time before he pitted after PER.
If it was 2 complete laps later, he would have passed start/finish twice before pitting after LEC. And he didn't. It was 1 time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Debbie Downer? More like you're over hyping every little thing redbull does,
That "every littlie thing" resulted in PER gaining 2 places, in Monaco...where overtaking is pretty much impossible.
And thus winning the race.
I call that superior. A Debbie Downer calls it nothing special. Calling winning Monaco while starting from 3rd a "little thing"...Debbie Downer indeed.
But whatever man....
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      05-31-2022, 03:13 AM   #468
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Yup it was officially L17 when Checo stopped after the start line in the RB box shown on the sky tv and a brilliant strat that Ferrari just couldn't match with the top gun strat'ers at RB. Max got it right also to just outgun Chas in the nick of time for third with his wheels true and straight to the yellow pit exit line ending that Ferrari mistakenly thought was on the other side which they tried in vain protesting as a knee jerk reaction to their interrupted pit stop (together with Sainz's failure to come in for inters) Binotto saying they wanted clarification.
Max is too wise to fall for that one and if anyone is taking on the mantle of 'The Professor' from former F1 racer Prost then MV is heading that way.
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      05-31-2022, 04:54 AM   #469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
No, 1 lap and part of a lap (9/10 or so; whatever his lead was on PER prior to pitting; 6-10 sec or so).
LEC passed start/finish 1 time before he pitted after PER.
If it was 2 complete laps later, he would have passed start/finish twice before pitting after LEC. And he didn't. It was 1 time.




That "every littlie thing" resulted in PER gaining 2 places, in Monaco...where overtaking is pretty much impossible.
And thus winning the race.
I call that superior. A Debbie Downer calls it nothing special. Calling winning Monaco while starting from 3rd a "little thing"...Debbie Downer indeed.
But whatever man....
That's essentially 2 laps, because the pit entrance is literally at the end of the lap. So ferrari did not respond the lap of perez boxing, they literally waited essentially 2 laps. If Charles is leading and perez behind boxes, that means Charles would cross the start finish line while perez is in the box, so at the end of this lap ferrari should have boxed him to respond - they would have about 92 seconds to respond because 92 seconds was about the lap time charles was setting on the lap perez boxed.

https://www.racefans.net/2022/05/29/...mes-and-tyres/

However if you look at the more accurate F1 reported box times and not the lap counter which is inaccurate especially on the live broad cast, you see charles boxed exactly 2 mins and 57 seconds after perez boxed. This is 177 seconds, does this look like 92 seconds to you? Times are concrete, no worrying about the broad casters changing the lap counter, no worrying about who the race leader is to set the lap count.

The data doesn't lie, ferrari botched the response and that led to redbull taking over. Redbull's strategy would have gotten them nothing if ferrari were so stupid and either boxed the lap of to respond to perez or tried to hold off and do a one stop to dries. The pit stop time for redbull was 24 seconds on perez, so if ferrari wanted to they had essentially 20 laps (even if perez was 1 second a lap faster on the inters) to buy time for the track to dry and try an alternative one stop strat to slicks, but nope they dropped the ball hard.


So call me a debbie downer all you want, you don't have any concrete data just screen shots of an inaccurate lap counter. I have solid timing from f1 and lap time charts of the race.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M5Rick View Post
Yup it was officially L17 when Checo stopped after the start line in the RB box shown on the sky tv and a brilliant strat that Ferrari just couldn't match with the top gun strat'ers at RB.
It's not the lap that is important it was how long ferrari took to respond, and the data doesn't lie it was essentially 2 laps. So they botched the response to redbull, there was nothing superb or extraordinary about redbulls strategy. Just simple undercut and hope it was dry enough that the undercut on inters was powerful enough to put them in the lead. But it wouldn't have been if ferrari responded immediately within the 92 second window or knew they botched it and gambled for a one stop to slicks.
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      05-31-2022, 05:41 AM   #470
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^ In the end it doesn't really matter if it was L16 or L17. Checo was told to box just yards from the pit entrance flummoxing Ferrari efforts for any surprise they were going to pull and it seemed like an eternity Lec doing another lap coming in on 18 the same time as Max.
He who dares wins
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      05-31-2022, 06:05 AM   #471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M5Rick View Post
^ In the end it doesn't really matter if it was L16 or L17. Checo was told to box just yards from the pit entrance flummoxing Ferrari efforts for any surprise they were going to pull and it seemed like an eternity Lec doing another lap coming in on 18 the same time as Max.
He who dares wins
What matters was the response time, thus making perez's win more due to ferrari's screw up rather than some kind of superb and extraordinary strategic call that allowed him to jump leclerc. If ferrari didn't screw up the response leclerc would still be ahead, and redbull's strategy wouldn't have done anything. This is literally 2018 ferrari vs. mercedes, just sitting there doing nothing until its too late.
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      05-31-2022, 09:22 AM   #472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
It was more like ferrari screwing up their strategy so bad that redbull inherited the win...

Literally ferrari ordered a double stack at the start of the lap while the gap between charles and carlos was 3ish seconds, by the end of the lap the gap evaporated to almost nothing so they screwed over charles and he had to wait for carlos.

So pretty much ferrari screwed up so hard redbull benefitted, redbull didn't have some master class strategy that put them in the lead they just inherited it.
The Red Bull undercuts work as usual like magic , and that's a big part in outstanding race strategy .

But the Ferrari strategy really s@cks , It's part of the Ferrari tradition ...
Mercedes knows as well how it is to screw it completely up..

Still fresh in our memories :
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      05-31-2022, 10:28 AM   #473
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LETS FUCKING GOOO CHECO!!!

Also, shout out to the LH44 squad for Masi's departure and all his mouthbreather fans thinking it was a good idea. It's 1000000x worse now and there's zero transparency.

https://www.twitter.com/ErikvHaren/s...79252589445121

Lewis fans = worst thing to happen to F1 in a long time
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      05-31-2022, 10:31 AM   #474
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Congrats to Checo on signing a 2 year extension - well deserved.

New baby, contract extension and a win in Monaco. Not long ago he was moments from never racing in F1 again.

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      05-31-2022, 10:37 AM   #475
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Originally Posted by NYG View Post
LETS FUCKING GOOO CHECO!!!

Also, shout out to the LH44 squad for Masi's departure and all his mouthbreather fans thinking it was a good idea. It's 1000000x worse now and there's zero transparency.

https://www.twitter.com/ErikvHaren/s...79252589445121

Lewis fans = worst thing to happen to F1 in a long time
Welcome back bro!!! Where u been? Thought u were in Bimmerpost Jail.
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      05-31-2022, 10:39 AM   #476
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Originally Posted by Killed by Death View Post
Welcome back bro!!! Where u been? Thought u were in Bimmerpost Jail.
Installed hardwood floors in new home - had to stain/seal/coat so I've had the PC in the garage for a little while.

Back to roast MB fans though.

Except irunalot because he's not brain dead.
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      05-31-2022, 11:27 AM   #477
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Except irunalot because he's not brain dead.
I usually go with imbecilic, mental midget, simpleton or plain stoobid

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      05-31-2022, 11:49 AM   #478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
What matters was the response time, thus making perez's win more due to ferrari's screw up rather than some kind of superb and extraordinary strategic call that allowed him to jump leclerc. If ferrari didn't screw up the response leclerc would still be ahead, and redbull's strategy wouldn't have done anything. This is literally 2018 ferrari vs. mercedes, just sitting there doing nothing until its too late.
As this was Leclerc's home race which Ferrari knew was ultra important to him...remember it's not only the drivers who are the team but the back up which are Ferrari team also, so it's all very well you saying Ferrari would have won if Lec hadn't have to wait 4 seconds or Sainz not telling his team he didn't want inters, yes he told them no.
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      05-31-2022, 11:58 AM   #479
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      05-31-2022, 12:04 PM   #480
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Originally Posted by NYG View Post

Lewis fans....
Are they still around?
Hammy is getting driving lessons from his new teammate race after race.
Points difference is now 34 points.
We all suspected last year that something like this would happen when Hammy would get a talented driver next to him, but that it would be this bad....
He has to work really really hard to make up that point difference to RUS to keep any credibility for this year.

Not that I care, the racing between RB and Ferrari is so much better, and the top tier drivers show eachother so much more respect.
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      05-31-2022, 12:36 PM   #481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Are they still around?
Hammy is getting driving lessons from his new teammate race after race.
Points difference is now 34 points.
We all suspected last year that something like this would happen when Hammy would get a talented driver next to him, but that it would be this bad....
He has to work really really hard to make up that point difference to RUS to keep any credibility for this year.

Not that I care, the racing between RB and Ferrari is so much better, and the top tier drivers show eachother so much more respect.
Quite amazing what happens when you've got a young driver with some good talent up against you and you no longer have a car that is leagues better than everyone else's. That said, they still have a very good car - he just isn't able to get the results Rus can. Furthermore, Rus can't get the results Max could last year with a car that was still not as good as the MB but he could drive the wheels off it.
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      05-31-2022, 12:49 PM   #482
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Potty mouth Leclerc. His team handed him 4th.

TY search for "Charles Leclerc's uncensored audio and in-car camera on that pit stop" Can't post it on this site.
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      05-31-2022, 01:39 PM   #483
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Just washed this race again...super hard to over take anyone
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      05-31-2022, 01:47 PM   #484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Are they still around?
Hammy is getting driving lessons from his new teammate race after race.
Points difference is now 34 points.
We all suspected last year that something like this would happen when Hammy would get a talented driver next to him, but that it would be this bad....
He has to work really really hard to make up that point difference to RUS to keep any credibility for this year.

Not that I care, the racing between RB and Ferrari is so much better, and the top tier drivers show eachother so much more respect.
OC . Our friend F87 is very present !
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