BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   6Post.com | BMW 6-Series Forum > BMW 6 Series Forum > BMW M6 Forum (F12 / F13)

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-24-2020, 04:10 AM   #1
yulook
Second Lieutenant
yulook's Avatar
Australia
25
Rep
260
Posts

Drives: F13 M6
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Gold Coast

iTrader: (0)

Arrow Have you changed your rod bearings? Pics inside

Hey guys

So after all the posts and recent failure of an S63tu of a club member, I decided to go the route of getting the bearings replaced

I did it at the right time
Perfect service history, oil changed before the recommended time.
Cost $1550 in parts
$1100 in labour ( AUD )

Bare in mind its 10-hour job

change at 68,000kms

Cyl6 showed signs of pitting already, and couple were down to the copper layer

The mechanic who did the job stated he's seen too many of these engines fail.

ACL bearings with all stock hardware

Never been tuned before. Just added the bm3 now.

I recommend anyone running any tunes to get it done. Peace of mind vs engine rebuild / replacement is a no brainer





Last edited by yulook; 07-24-2020 at 06:28 PM..
Appreciate 1
      07-24-2020, 06:38 AM   #2
iskuo
New Member
2
Rep
15
Posts

Drives: Mazda RX-8
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New York

iTrader: (1)

How much did it cost to have this job done?
Appreciate 1
MMMM6GC90.00

      07-24-2020, 10:19 AM   #3
patchesj
Private
patchesj's Avatar
36
Rep
73
Posts

Drives: BMW M6
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: KY

iTrader: (0)

Interesting, they were able to do this with just dropping the pan? I didn't think you could get to everything with the motor still mounted. Did you have any Blackstone analysis done ahead of the rebuild? Would be good to know if there were any signs the bearings were wearing that fast.
Appreciate 1
MMMM6GC90.00

      07-24-2020, 11:12 AM   #4
LJohnson32
Private First Class
LJohnson32's Avatar
United_States
74
Rep
184
Posts

Drives: 2016 BMW M6 Gran Coupe
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (1)

+1 for understanding cost and how involved this job was to have done
__________________
Appreciate 0
      07-24-2020, 11:16 AM   #5
patchesj
Private
patchesj's Avatar
36
Rep
73
Posts

Drives: BMW M6
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: KY

iTrader: (0)

I've read elsewhere on the interwebs that this was a $600 job. I find that hard to believe, as it also looks like 10-15 shop hours.

My gut tells me it should be $1800-$2000 all in...
Appreciate 0
      07-24-2020, 06:29 PM   #6
yulook
Second Lieutenant
yulook's Avatar
Australia
25
Rep
260
Posts

Drives: F13 M6
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Gold Coast

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by iskuo View Post
How much did it cost to have this job done?
Post updated with cost
Appreciate 0
      07-24-2020, 06:31 PM   #7
yulook
Second Lieutenant
yulook's Avatar
Australia
25
Rep
260
Posts

Drives: F13 M6
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Gold Coast

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by patchesj View Post
Interesting, they were able to do this with just dropping the pan? I didn't think you could get to everything with the motor still mounted. Did you have any Blackstone analysis done ahead of the rebuild? Would be good to know if there were any signs the bearings were wearing that fast.
Correct, only the pan needs to be removed

No analysis, I just went in on a whim

Suprinsgly no metal particles were found in the oil filter from the pitting on cyl; 6
Appreciate 1
MMMM6GC90.00

      07-24-2020, 06:32 PM   #8
yulook
Second Lieutenant
yulook's Avatar
Australia
25
Rep
260
Posts

Drives: F13 M6
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Gold Coast

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LJohnson32 View Post
+1 for understanding cost and how involved this job was to have done
Posted updated with cost and time.

BMW won't allow third party bearings and will only allow you to put the OEM bearings

Depending on the mechanic it can be done in 10 hours or so.
Appreciate 1
      07-24-2020, 07:05 PM   #9
LJohnson32
Private First Class
LJohnson32's Avatar
United_States
74
Rep
184
Posts

Drives: 2016 BMW M6 Gran Coupe
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by yulook View Post
Posted updated with cost and time.

BMW won't allow third party bearings and will only allow you to put the OEM bearings

Depending on the mechanic it can be done in 10 hours or so.
Thanks for the info, do you by chance happen to have part #'s for everything that was replaced? Trying to understand the full scope of work when going in and doing this. I notice on ECS there are bearing shells with different 'color designations' (green, blue, red) so applicable part numbers would be helpful if you have them.

Seeing the pitting on Cyl #6 has grabbed my attention on this issue, I'm at ~80,000km
__________________
Appreciate 0
      07-24-2020, 08:23 PM   #10
yulook
Second Lieutenant
yulook's Avatar
Australia
25
Rep
260
Posts

Drives: F13 M6
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Gold Coast

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LJohnson32 View Post
Thanks for the info, do you by chance happen to have part #'s for everything that was replaced? Trying to understand the full scope of work when going in and doing this. I notice on ECS there are bearing shells with different 'color designations' (green, blue, red) so applicable part numbers would be helpful if you have them.

Seeing the pitting on Cyl #6 has grabbed my attention on this issue, I'm at ~80,000km
Unfortunately not the part numbers

I would recommend emailing ACL or visiting a BMW specialist / tuner. They would be able to tell you the exact part numbers

The only thing aftermarket is the bearings. Everything else is stock

ACL STD Bearings
OEM Rod bolts
OEM Gaskets
OEM Sump bolts, lower pan bolts
OEM Misc bolts/seals
Shell 10Litres 0w40
OEM Oil filter
CHF Powersteering fluid
Sealant/assembly oils
Appreciate 1
      07-24-2020, 09:20 PM   #11
Marcus Frost
Custom User Title
United_States
33
Rep
71
Posts

Drives: Various
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL

iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to Marcus Frost
I have some issues with the information in this thread.

I don't like someone anecdotally saying "he's seen too many of these engines fail" - it's alarmist and not accurate. These engines are in a LOT of cars, and cars that people beat on without remorse and who knows how they are maintained.

What is the manufacture date of your car yulook?

Also, oil changes are not a magic panacea when it comes to bearing wear. Certainly, not changing your oil causes problems, but things that people overlook when it comes to bearing wear are things like not allowing oil to get up to operating temp before putting load on the bottom end, or using the wrong weight oil. There is a very complicated discussion here to be had on engine oil but in a nutshell modern engines are notoriously sensitive to engine oils, and for a manufacturer like BMW while it does have the engine's reliability in mind, it also picks an oil that is a good compromise for cost (since they sometimes sell cars with prepaid maintenance) and performance...

I have been working on making a post to give my two cents and start a discussion around engine failures, bearing wear, engine oils, etc. I've just had my oil sent to Blackstone Labs for analysis and I'm waiting for the results. I am looking forward to posting soon.
__________________
2014 BMW M6 Coupe, Sakhir/Black, 6-Speed, Ceramics - DME/AMS/Eisenmann/Rogue/KW/MORR
2016 BMW 328d xDrive Touring, Mineral Gray/Black, MSport
2016 BMW X5 35d, Alpine White/Black, MSport
1969 Lincoln Continental Sedan
Appreciate 2
      07-25-2020, 06:21 AM   #12
patchesj
Private
patchesj's Avatar
36
Rep
73
Posts

Drives: BMW M6
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: KY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Frost View Post
but things that people overlook when it comes to bearing wear are things like not allowing oil to get up to operating temp before putting load on the bottom end, or using the wrong weight oil.


-additional thought here. I've seen arguments back and forth over 5-30 vs 5-40... Made by folks that don't warm their oil up to 180 before putting a load on the engine....


I'm not able to get a really good look at those bearings, but I would assume blackstone tests over time and a magnified look at the bearings would give more insight into the reason for the wear.

Personally, $30 for a test every oil change, changes every 5k miles, using the highest quality oil available, and having a startup/shutdown process seems to be minimal investment vs even just a bearing replacement (which may or may not be necessary proactively to prevent full failure)
Appreciate 1
MMMM6GC90.00

      07-25-2020, 08:52 PM   #13
yulook
Second Lieutenant
yulook's Avatar
Australia
25
Rep
260
Posts

Drives: F13 M6
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Gold Coast

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Frost View Post
I have some issues with the information in this thread.

I don't like someone anecdotally saying "he's seen too many of these engines fail" - it's alarmist and not accurate. These engines are in a LOT of cars, and cars that people beat on without remorse and who knows how they are maintained.

What is the manufacture date of your car yulook?

Also, oil changes are not a magic panacea when it comes to bearing wear. Certainly, not changing your oil causes problems, but things that people overlook when it comes to bearing wear are things like not allowing oil to get up to operating temp before putting load on the bottom end, or using the wrong weight oil. There is a very complicated discussion here to be had on engine oil but in a nutshell modern engines are notoriously sensitive to engine oils, and for a manufacturer like BMW while it does have the engine's reliability in mind, it also picks an oil that is a good compromise for cost (since they sometimes sell cars with prepaid maintenance) and performance...

I have been working on making a post to give my two cents and start a discussion around engine failures, bearing wear, engine oils, etc. I've just had my oil sent to Blackstone Labs for analysis and I'm waiting for the results. I am looking forward to posting soon.

Thanks for the input. I do agree with you on some points

2014 model

The mechanic works for BMW so he would have seen his collection of failures.

Its becoming a common issue on S engines.

At the end of the day its up to you. I take this as preventative maintenance and looking at the state of the bearings in my car, it was the right step.
Appreciate 1
      07-27-2020, 01:04 AM   #14
Marcus Frost
Custom User Title
United_States
33
Rep
71
Posts

Drives: Various
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL

iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to Marcus Frost
Quote:
Originally Posted by patchesj View Post


-additional thought here. I've seen arguments back and forth over 5-30 vs 5-40... Made by folks that don't warm their oil up to 180 before putting a load on the engine....


I'm not able to get a really good look at those bearings, but I would assume blackstone tests over time and a magnified look at the bearings would give more insight into the reason for the wear.

Personally, $30 for a test every oil change, changes every 5k miles, using the highest quality oil available, and having a startup/shutdown process seems to be minimal investment vs even just a bearing replacement (which may or may not be necessary proactively to prevent full failure)
Spot on here and the test + 5k + high quality oil is very much the recipe for any performance motor in today's day and age. Furthermore, it takes my car a good 6-8 miles and 10-15 minutes of drive time before it gets to a comfortable operating temperature. Writing that out seems like very little but I KNOW so many people have absolutely no consideration for engine oil temp before putting significant load on their engine. Perhaps the S63 is a bit more sensitive to this, but in the end it's a very easy thing to do that will allow you engine to run for a long time without issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yulook
Thanks for the input. I do agree with you on some points

2014 model

The mechanic works for BMW so he would have seen his collection of failures.

Its becoming a common issue on S engines.

At the end of the day its up to you. I take this as preventative maintenance and looking at the state of the bearings in my car, it was the right step.
Please do not take offense to my comments, but similarly I don't think bearing issues require the "common" designation at this time. Perhaps your mechanic has seen more poorly maintained / highly abused S63s, perhaps not.

In the end, maintaining your car is your prerogative - and if you are happy with the bearing replacement I don't think anyone is going to take that away from you. I think the bigger picture talking point here is that if you're going to replace bearings but not adhere to operating instructions, you're just delaying the inevitable. Bearing wear, while sometimes a result of factory defects, is more often that not about oil, oil, oil.
__________________
2014 BMW M6 Coupe, Sakhir/Black, 6-Speed, Ceramics - DME/AMS/Eisenmann/Rogue/KW/MORR
2016 BMW 328d xDrive Touring, Mineral Gray/Black, MSport
2016 BMW X5 35d, Alpine White/Black, MSport
1969 Lincoln Continental Sedan
Appreciate 1
      07-27-2020, 08:19 AM   #15
RagtagXMASTER
Second Lieutenant
RagtagXMASTER's Avatar
69
Rep
261
Posts

Drives: 2013 M6
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Boston MA

iTrader: (0)

A lot of good info here. I have a few oil reports i have taken over the ownership of my car and have noticed that the oil interval is hugely important, and that using thicker oil is really needed. We do experience "cold" wear, but even at temperature, the 5W-30 and 40 thin out under the load when elevated to higher engine temps.

I just changed over to Redline 5W-50 to see if i can maintain good oil viscosity at normal oil temps of about 210-220F. When i ran liqui moly molygen 5w-40 my temps were lower but as soon as you started to push the car doing some aggressive pulls the oil temp would jump to 240F. now that is not hot, but to me that is. so far with the 5w-50 it takes longer to warm up, but holds the temp much more consistently under load.
__________________
Appreciate 1
      07-27-2020, 08:48 AM   #16
patchesj
Private
patchesj's Avatar
36
Rep
73
Posts

Drives: BMW M6
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: KY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagtagXMASTER View Post
A lot of good info here. I have a few oil reports i have taken over the ownership of my car and have noticed that the oil interval is hugely important, and that using thicker oil is really needed. We do experience "cold" wear, but even at temperature, the 5W-30 and 40 thin out under the load when elevated to higher engine temps.

I just changed over to Redline 5W-50 to see if i can maintain good oil viscosity at normal oil temps of about 210-220F. When i ran liqui moly molygen 5w-40 my temps were lower but as soon as you started to push the car doing some aggressive pulls the oil temp would jump to 240F. now that is not hot, but to me that is. so far with the 5w-50 it takes longer to warm up, but holds the temp much more consistently under load.
This is an interesting problem in and of itself. When looking at the temp of a coolant, you need to also understand if the temp is higher is it because it is effectively pulling more heat from the motor, or because it is less efficient in distributing this heat to the cooler? To really know the dynamics of the system we need multiple temp sensors, and we are really getting into the weeds.

Oil has 2 purposes for us. 1) lubrication 2) heat transfer. I would prefer 1 vs 2 when judging oil performance. As long as lubrication is good, I don't really care what the temp is. If the oil provides proper coverage and viscosity at 240, and the higher temp indicates that the fluid is pulling more heat from the metal, I am good. "Better" oils will maintain viscosity and protection properties at higher temps. I actually think that both redline 5-50 and molygen 5-40 are probably in the ball park here.

Again, we are really in the weeds... And if you aren't changing your oil/filter every 5k miles, you aren't properly warming up the engine, and if you aren't consistently testing the oil. Well, the rest of this is moot.

Side note, I think everyone is aware that in sport+ we see lower oil temps. I am surprised that I haven't found any of the flash tuners listing changes to the thermostat/fan/pump mappings as part of their tune. If you are going to flash the ECU, might as well have the thing keep oil temps optimized for protection all the time??
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2020, 10:23 AM   #17
patchesj
Private
patchesj's Avatar
36
Rep
73
Posts

Drives: BMW M6
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: KY

iTrader: (0)

FYI, funny I actually received my first blackstone test back from the M6 today. Last oil change was 2700 miles ago, BMW Dealer w/ Castrol 5-30. I always change fluids/filters on new to me cars ASAP, as you can never trust history.

After this short run it looks like viscosity was marginal, so this is clearly not the best oil choice for our motors... Certainly not if you are expecting > 5000 mi intervals. I did change to 5-40 Molygen, so hopefully there will be some better numbers next time.

Also, all of the other numbers are in line with what I expected. The higher calcium number is curious as the EU version of Castrol is supposed to be lower Ca (Did the dealer use EU version, hmm..). Ca in oil burn is also attributed to pre-ignition issues, could be related to early bearing wear (in particular on the "top" half of the bearings....). Wonder if non-EU oil is part of the "problems" on S63's?
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 1
      07-27-2020, 11:35 AM   #18
RagtagXMASTER
Second Lieutenant
RagtagXMASTER's Avatar
69
Rep
261
Posts

Drives: 2013 M6
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Boston MA

iTrader: (0)

If you like i have a google doc you can look at to compare values. I color gadiented mine green is good. Red is bad. Technically you can ignore the high calcium. I think high calcium leads to higher chances of pre ignition. However calcium is a great detergent.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...1h_93uHwY/edit

You will see though that the oil thins out of its viscosity range at temp. Hopefully the 5-50 holds up better.

Also agree on heat transfer. I feel like there should be a better master thread for this though and maybe save the op thread for bearing wear.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2020, 03:23 PM   #19
BMWRog
Private
9
Rep
95
Posts

Drives: 2014 M6 Convertible
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Oxfordshire, U.K.

iTrader: (0)

Interesting thread, thanks... I'm learning a lot!

I think the BMW recommendation in the UK is for 0W-30 LL-04.

I'm too old to start rolling around underneath vehicles at my age, so a local main BMW garage changes my oil, and carries out maintenance. I'm assuming if asked, they'd give me a sample of my old oil which I could then send off for analysis, as I can't see any other way of getting a sample out of the engine.
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2020, 03:25 PM   #20
patchesj
Private
patchesj's Avatar
36
Rep
73
Posts

Drives: BMW M6
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: KY

iTrader: (0)

FYI, posted new oil testing thread here: https://www.6post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1743270
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:57 AM.




6post.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST