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      04-16-2021, 07:56 AM   #45
eljay
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For me, it's affordability. If EVs were affordable (sub $20k new and $10k used examples on the market), I'd be tempted to get one as a second car just as effthreeoh stated above.
It wouldn't have to be sporty and fun and track toy blah blah. But it cannot be a Smart e-car either. I would take e-Golf despite that not being the best EV out there. But I like the brand, styling and it looks like a car I like and just happens to have electric drivetrain.
HOWEVER, it costs the same as Golf R! So, guess which one I would buy if I have to drop CAD$50k on a new car.
If e-Golf was $25k, it would be a different story.
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      04-16-2021, 08:47 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
Perhaps somewhat unrelated, but still interesting to consider, is that with an EV, you could theoretically make a body shell in any shape or form and use a very common chassis underpinning. It's basically like an RC car. Since the batteries are often in the floor and the motor(s) small, it's easy to make make a basic chassis that could be easily modified to work as a sports car, sedan, or SUV. Want to drive something that looks like a Ferrari? Easy. Want a sedan? Easy.
This isn't theory, this is exactly what many of the new dedicated EV architectures are.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ev+skateboard+platform

Specifically, check out GM's BEV3, Hyundai Motors e-GMP, Volkswagen's MEB, and Rivian's truck chassis. VW already has vehicles on the market, and the others are coming soon (starting later this year).
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      04-16-2021, 12:28 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
This isn't theory, this is exactly what many of the new dedicated EV architectures are.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ev+skateboard+platform

Specifically, check out GM's BEV3, Hyundai Motors e-GMP, Volkswagen's MEB, and Rivian's truck chassis. VW already has vehicles on the market, and the others are coming soon (starting later this year).
The skateboard architectures you mentioned are coming. And they are ideally suited to a brake and seer by wire use case. Commuters and last mile delivery haulers. They will be the perfect rig to pick me and my family up when we call Uber. Or for FedEx. Just not for enthusiasts.

Nor for anyone who still wants to enjoy “driving”.
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      04-16-2021, 01:53 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
The skateboard architectures you mentioned are coming. And they are ideally suited to a brake and seer by wire use case.
No steer by wire yet, and I don't believe there is any production vehicle that relies solely on brake by wire either. For today's architectures, once you place the body onto the chassis, there are still some additional mechanical integration points.

In the (likely distant) future, once autonomous drive is viable, you'll see vehicles with no mechanically operated driver controls. And eventually, in the even more distant (hardly worth discussing at this point) future, manual controls will evolve away completely.

Quote:
Commuters and last mile delivery haulers. They will be the perfect rig to pick me and my family up when we call Uber. Or for FedEx. Just not for enthusiasts.

Nor for anyone who still wants to enjoy “driving”.
It's almost surely not happening in your lifetime, so you can rest easy.
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      04-16-2021, 01:59 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Well not really, hammers are already invented and work great for driving nails. No one is trying to make (reinvent) a screwdriver into a hammer. ICE cars are already invented and they work great. EVs don't in comparison as overall transportation. Everyone who says they use their ICE to take long-distance drives and leave their EV at home, just makes the point. The EV can exist as an alternate choice of transportation in a 2-car household with the other car being ICE. Right now, as a standalone transportation device, EVs have shortfalls.
We're making the same point here. There isn't 1 car, gas-powered or otherwise, that does everything. They're all tools, they all have use cases and trade-offs. If a tool doesn't suit your needs, that doesn't necessarily mean the tool is bad, it just means you need something else.

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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I'll vote that my E90 is such a car. It's provided a great deal of service to me for a very reasonable cost of 31 cents per mile. It's on it's 15th year of service come May 22nd. I've not had to compromise at all to use it.
An E90 is just as compromised as anything else. Unless you're using it to haul large furniture, tow a boat, drive HPDE's, and got a federal tax credit on it, yes you made some trade-offs here. Honestly even having to gas it up is a genuine compromise.
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      04-16-2021, 01:59 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
No steer by wire yet, and I don't believe there is any production vehicle that relies solely on brake by wire either.
Infiniti, of all brands introduced steer by wire for the Q50 in 2014, while it is still not fully steer by wire (they do have a redundant mechanical rack as back-up) , it is the beginning
https://www.wired.com/2014/06/infini...steer-by-wire/
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      04-16-2021, 02:13 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Everyone who says they use their ICE to take long-distance drives and leave their EV at home, just makes the point.
I'll admit I'm out of touch with the average American so pardon the ignorance...but do you people really make long-distance trips that often. Why?

An EV would not be a good choice to drive across the country. Also, a Camry would not be a good choice if you need to haul lumber.
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      04-16-2021, 02:31 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
No steer by wire yet, and I don't believe there is any production vehicle that relies solely on brake by wire either. For today's architectures, once you place the body onto the chassis, there are still some additional mechanical integration points.

In the (likely distant) future, once autonomous drive is viable, you'll see vehicles with no mechanically operated driver controls. And eventually, in the even more distant (hardly worth discussing at this point) future, manual controls will evolve away completely.



It's almost surely not happening in your lifetime, so you can rest easy.
Oh, X-by-wire will happen before 2030. How do I know? I'm leading a team currently working on it for the next German OEM technology flagship. SOP likely 2027 (advertised as earlier, though not likely) ... but still. Just saying.
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Last edited by 5.M0NSTER; 04-16-2021 at 02:39 PM..
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      04-16-2021, 02:49 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FC4 View Post
I'll admit I'm out of touch with the average American so pardon the ignorance...but do you people really make long-distance trips that often. Why?

An EV would not be a good choice to drive across the country. Also, a Camry would not be a good choice if you need to haul lumber.
Yes. Why? Because we can, we want to, and in some cases it's necessary.

I have travelled globally fairly extensively, and realize that high mileage automobile travel is not the norm in many countries. It is, however, for a certain segment of the US populace.

In Europe, for example, intercity train travel is fairly common. I have used this mode of transport while in Europe, and it is excellent. In the US, this option is poor or non-existent. Mostly non-existent.
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      04-16-2021, 03:12 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyriian View Post
Infiniti, of all brands introduced steer by wire for the Q50 in 2014, while it is still not fully steer by wire (they do have a redundant mechanical rack as back-up) , it is the beginning
https://www.wired.com/2014/06/infini...steer-by-wire/
Very aware of that, yep. They ditched it when they refreshed the car, and, like you say, it wasn't really a true steer by wire system to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Oh, X-by-wire will happen before 2030. How do I know? I'm leading a team currently working on it for the next German OEM technology flagship. SOP likely 2027 (advertised as earlier, though not likely) ... but still. Just saying.
I'm sure that'll be a very fine product when it hits the market six years from now. I stand by what I say though - we're still a long way from steer and brake by wire becoming the default setup. Lots of great vehicles designed to be driven hard are coming between now and then.
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      04-16-2021, 03:16 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I'll settle for one that's not ugly as shit, or styled weirdly, and doesn't have a TV screen stuck on the dash.
+1 for all of the above - I can not stand giant sticking out tablet/monitor

I had an opportunity to drive the ActiveE. It felt like true BMW.
Till date, I can not understand how such a nice pilot translated into i3 ...
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      04-16-2021, 03:29 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FC4 View Post
I'll admit I'm out of touch with the average American so pardon the ignorance...but do you people really make long-distance trips that often. Why?
No, they don't. They just all think they do.

Everyone thinks they need a vehicle that can road trip cross country with a family of 8 over unpaved roads while hitting dragstrips and autocross courses along the way.
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      04-16-2021, 04:09 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel;
I'm sure that'll be a very fine product when it hits the market six years from now. I stand by what I say though - we're still a long way from steer and brake by wire becoming the default setup. Lots of great vehicles designed to be driven hard are coming between now and then.
And thank God for that.
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      04-17-2021, 08:37 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FC4 View Post
I'll admit I'm out of touch with the average American so pardon the ignorance...but do you people really make long-distance trips that often. Why?

An EV would not be a good choice to drive across the country. Also, a Camry would not be a good choice if you need to haul lumber.
Why would someone use a Camry to haul lumber across country? We have trains and trucks that deliver lumber from the source of manufacture to one's local home center.

Maybe if you took a road trip and noticed all the out of state tags on the cars around you, you'd understand that people do take long-distance trips. For example, a family of 4 that makes an average annual income of, say $45K, and who buys a used Camry with 80,000 miles on it for $8K, may take a road trip vs. flying 4 people 1,500 miles to see their mother/grandmother.

I mean seriously, have you ever noticed how the major hotel chains are all clustered around certain major interstate intersections? And if you road trip, most all of those hotels fill up after 7PM. Especially in the summer.

One final thought... If Americans didn't need/want 400-mile range in their ICE vehicles to road trip with, manufacturers would only put in 8-gallon gas tanks instead of 16 gallon gas tanks...

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Last edited by Efthreeoh; 04-17-2021 at 09:19 AM..
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      04-17-2021, 08:39 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chassis View Post
Yes. Why? Because we can, we want to, and in some cases it's necessary.

I have travelled globally fairly extensively, and realize that high mileage automobile travel is not the norm in many countries. It is, however, for a certain segment of the US populace.

In Europe, for example, intercity train travel is fairly common. I have used this mode of transport while in Europe, and it is excellent. In the US, this option is poor or non-existent. Mostly non-existent.
Because gasoline is not taxed out the ass in the US like it is in Europe...
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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      04-17-2021, 09:11 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by yousefnjr View Post
We're making the same point here. There isn't 1 car, gas-powered or otherwise, that does everything. They're all tools, they all have use cases and trade-offs. If a tool doesn't suit your needs, that doesn't necessarily mean the tool is bad, it just means you need something else.



An E90 is just as compromised as anything else. Unless you're using it to haul large furniture, tow a boat, drive HPDE's, and got a federal tax credit on it, yes you made some trade-offs here. Honestly even having to gas it up is a genuine compromise.
And there is a different purpose for salad forks vs. dinner forks. And prop airplanes vs. jets. And twin beds vs. king-size beds. And band-aid vs. gauze/medical tape. But if I compare a Tesla Model 3 to my E90 FOR THE SAME USE CASE, I've not had to compromise owning my E90. For me, refueling a Model 3 is actually inconvenient because my home charging station would be a 90 second walk over to my shop where I have a source of electricity to install a home charger. That 90 second walk is uncovered over open ground, so when it rains hard with wind, I'd get soaked, my shoes would get muddy and I'd have wet feet all day. Being that I drive a lot, I refuel twice a week at a gas station on my commute that is never completely occupied, so I never wait to refuel and it takes about 5 minutes from card-in-pump to ass-in-drivers seat to recharge, so my recharge time is 10 minutes a week, which is less time for me to walk over and back to my theoretical Tesla during the week. If I were to stop at a Tesla Super Charger station near my office, I'd have to drive 20 minutes out of my way to get to it and then sit there an hour or more to fully recharge, on top of my existing 1 hour and 1/2 half commute. Entry to the gas station I use takes 5 seconds to pull off the road and to the fuel pump and 5 seconds to get back on the road. I use the same pump every time.

So you'd be wrong about that.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 04-17-2021 at 08:06 PM..
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      04-19-2021, 01:34 PM   #61
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I just don't know if I can warm up to an EV...

Even with all the advantages with regard to handling, acceleration, less maintenance, etc. I like feeling the engine, the shifting of the gears, the engine growl, and onward...

Of course, I had said the same thing about turbo four cylinders replacing sixes, and look at me now.
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      04-20-2021, 11:28 AM   #62
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I haul my 7200 pound camper a thousand miles to camp by the ocean with my full size V8 truck/SUV twice a year and several other campsite within 200 miles range. 200 is the limit of my gas tank at 14 MPG. It cost over $200 to drive 1000 miles but that's cheap when you're taking the whole family. I stopped about 3 times for 30 minutes each to stretch/refuel/eat. It would be terrific to be able to drive 1000 miles and only charge for 1.5 hour. But it would take a power cable the size of a telephone pole to transfer that much energy that quickly.
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      04-20-2021, 12:07 PM   #63
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I haul my 7200 pound camper a thousand miles to camp by the ocean with my full size V8 truck/SUV twice a year and several other campsite within 200 miles range. 200 is the limit of my gas tank at 14 MPG. It cost over $200 to drive 1000 miles but that's cheap when you're taking the whole family. I stopped about 3 times for 30 minutes each to stretch/refuel/eat. It would be terrific to be able to drive 1000 miles and only charge for 1.5 hour. But it would take a power cable the size of a telephone pole to transfer that much energy that quickly.
Fast Lane did a towing test with a Model X and it lost 65% of it's range while towing a 4500lb teardrop. I know the Model X isn't built to tow, but if a real electric truck is anything like that, you're going to spend more time charging than driving.
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