cabrio stolen

caipi · 08-30-2018, 06:58 AM

Hi community,

2 months ago, I was having dinner with family in a nice restaurant. We arrived at around 8pm and left around midnight.
When we went out, surprise, our car was gone. We were wondering around to see if we did leave the car further down the road.

30 minutes later, we called Police and where told to go to the station to report a potential theft.

We were in Lisbon on holidays with our car.
We took a flight back home and informed our insurance.
They sent an insurance claim officer who came along with plenty of questions.

He asked for both keys (which we have), registration documents etc.

3 weeks later, they come back to me, saying claim is rejected as they did a reading of both keys and saw that on one key, car was driven 2 hours after we were in the restaurant and was driven for 10 miles.

They basically say, that either me has driven the car or I have given keys to someone else.

It would be very un-normal that a thief steals your keys, drives away and brings keys back.

I do not know, if someone took out the key out of my jacket when we were having lunch.What I know is, when we left the restaurant, car was gone but I was in possession of my key.

I searched a bit the internet and saw that other people had same problem with AXA insurance. They claim that they did the car key reading and that car was still being used minutes or hours after the car was supposed to be parked.

I requested my keys back and now some kind of panicking.
They want their solicitor, my solicitor, a bailiff present to the reading of the keys.

They did sent me a read out of the keys done at a BMW garage and there I can see, that the car was moved around 2 hours being in the restaurant and driven around 10 miles.

Why was there no official (bailiff) present to pick up the keys or during the reading?
The insurance guy took the keys and 7 days later, the reading was done.

Now they want everything done in presence of solicitors and bailiff.

Could there be any possibility that they have altered data on my key fob?

I was in touch with a Coder and he told me, that with the right software, that would not be a problem.

Some advice would be very much appreciated.
Going to court will cost a fortune.

Just for the records:
Car is not leased, there is no finance, there are no financial problems.
I could if I wanted, have sold the car 10 times so no need to get into something dodgy like stealing my own car.

Thanks a lot.

MARKPRIOR · 08-30-2018, 07:26 AM

Ouch.....

i would be questioning things like timezones GMT vs BST vs whatever the car / keys record

i would imagine keys are coded from factory which would be GMT+2

Central European Summer Time
Time zone in Munich, Germany (GMT+2)
Thursday, 30 August 2018, 14:26

Have you tried connected drive locate car function ?

babaikram · 08-30-2018, 07:57 AM

I know the thieves are now using a technology in which they can remotely send a signal from your own key to open a car and start the engine of a car in order to steal. This happens with cars that have comfort access. It is now quite common in areas such as London etc. A tons have been reported on internet

JamieTailor · 08-30-2018, 07:58 AM

Not sure if it's possible but perhaps some CCTV footage from the restaurant to see you not giving the keys or something like that?

caipi · 08-30-2018, 10:54 AM

It's the following:

AXA is accusing me of stealing my own car or having organised theft of it.

Reading of fob says that after I have been at the restaurant, another 10 were added, 2 hours after I left the car close to the restaurant.

When I left the restaurant, I had the keys and car was gone.

They did a reading of the fobs at BMW one week after the insurance guy came to pick them up.

Now that I request my keys back, they insist to do a reading of fobs when my lawyer, their lawyer and a bailiff is present.

Why it took them 1 week to do the reading at BMW?

Now they want all in presence of officials.

I think they cover something up. They probably manipulated data on my fob to make it look as I am guilty of theft of my own car, just not to pay.

I spoke to a coder and he told me, with the right software, they could have change the reading on the car keys/fob.

After searching the net, AXA is notorious of not paying out.
Any chance to fight them in court?

Regards,

elvisisdog · 08-30-2018, 12:52 PM

I'm assuming your car had comfort access? If so this should be a satisfactory explanation to how the car can be stolen without your keys. From what I understand they use the signal from the key, amplify it to gain access to the car. If so then I guess it's also possible the key thinks it's actively in use.

CCTV may help but unlikely the data exists after so much time had passed, I'm assuming this all happened weeks ago.

From a legal perspective are there any cases that went to court? I'd be surprised of a conspiracy theory in the insurance company. Suspect it's more related to how the car was stolen.

Wanting legal representatives involved is purely them covering themselves in case of legal challenge. I'm surprised bmw can't help further on the basis of how much GPS information the car apparently gives off to assist with real time traffic updates.

Flying Ace · 08-30-2018, 01:45 PM

I'm confused. Are you in possession of your car now?

I'm aware of the hack for comfort access cars, but how are these cars not recoverable? Modern BMWs all have their GPS activated and is tracked. Here in the US, when a car gets stolen, the police can access the GPS location within a day and recover the vehicle.

Ultimately, your insurance company appears to be amateurs. This BMW theft issue is widely known in the industry, it's not difficult for them to ask BMW why your situation happened in which your key logged records of it operating the car as it pertains to the hack. I'm sure the hack amplifies your key's signals, so initially, it'll register the key as operating the car. I still don't understand why the car is not recoverable as the GPS is hooked up. Sure the thieves can unhook the GPS, but up to that point, they should have pinpointed the last location of the transponder.

But really the REAL problem is Russia. It appears they dont' even care about ensuring they're not registering stolen cars. Here the in US, there's a registration of VIN numbers for cars that are stolen. A thief will never be able to register a stolen car in the US. The parts on the cars are rarely of any value, and the most valuable parts (the engine) has the VIN stamped on it so it's hard to resell it.

murph914 · 08-30-2018, 02:02 PM

Yikes. Accusing of grand theft is a pretty serious accusation. Insurance companies by rule are almost all scum. Get yourself a lawyer and let them duke it out. In the meantime you will need to purchase a new car and pay the legal fees. With all the technology on these care you would think they would be able to track this sort of thing down.

Good luck.

Now the pressing bit - What are you getting next?

AZ_Bmw_550 · 08-30-2018, 04:36 PM

I would think that they'd need more proof than the key to deny the claim. I mean they could deny it, but I doubt that it would hold up in court.

caipi · 08-30-2018, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

I'm confused. Are you in possession of your car now?

I'm aware of the hack for comfort access cars, but how are these cars not recoverable? Modern BMWs all have their GPS activated and is tracked. Here in the US, when a car gets stolen, the police can access the GPS location within a day and recover the vehicle.

Ultimately, your insurance company appears to be amateurs. This BMW theft issue is widely known in the industry, it's not difficult for them to ask BMW why your situation happened in which your key logged records of it operating the car as it pertains to the hack. I'm sure the hack amplifies your key's signals, so initially, it'll register the key as operating the car. I still don't understand why the car is not recoverable as the GPS is hooked up. Sure the thieves can unhook the GPS, but up to that point, they should have pinpointed the last location of the transponder.

But really the REAL problem is Russia. It appears they dont' even care about ensuring they're not registering stolen cars. Here the in US, there's a registration of VIN numbers for cars that are stolen. A thief will never be able to register a stolen car in the US. The parts on the cars are rarely of any value, and the most valuable parts (the engine) has the VIN stamped on it so it's hard to resell it.

No, car has not been recovered.

Insurance accusing me of having stolen or organised theft of my car.
I went with a friend to a restaurant at 8pm. We paid at around midnight. Car gone. I was in possession of the key. Went to police station to report missing car.

Insurance company sent someone to take some further notes and took both keys and registration documents.

7 days later, key fob was read out at BMW.

I requested all documents and keys back as they refuse to pay as this is still my property.

Now they want to do another fob reading in presence of their/ my lawyer and a bailiff to have all official.

I questioned them why this has not been done like this at the very beginning.
They took keys and had 7 days to play around with data stored on fob.

Is it true, that when a car is stolen by catching the fob signal by an amplifier and driven away (car thinks that key is present).

If it is true that additional miles driven with the car will now be added on the fob as the car thinks that the original fob was in the car to start it and drive away, this would be a very valuable point.

I heart that thieves try to get the fob's signal and manage to open cars and drive away but I am unaware that the additional miles etc will then be stored on the fob even the fob has not been used to open the car or drive the car away.

This could be a game changer if this is true.

Thanks a lot for your comments:

Fighting a criminal (Insurance) organisation.

They play on time, manipulate, falsely accuse and hope that I do not have the guts to go to court, pay my lawyer and have the time to go through courts;

Cheers,

murph914 · 08-31-2018, 11:00 AM

occam's razor

Someone probably lifted it from your jacket and then put the key back after driving 15 minutes away. There are people out there that are just that good at it.

This would be MUCH easier than trying to code the key. And then recoding the key to put the miles back on the key are more likely than a criminal conspiracy at (I'm guessing here because I live in the US) a well known insurance company.

If there is some clause that means the insurance company can wiggle out of paying if this is the case I would be very careful what you say. This is what you should be talking to the lawyer about. You should ask him if you should suggest that maybe your jacket was unattended while you went to the washroom or something.

God I hate lawyers and insurance companies.

Just my $0.02

The0pportunist · 08-31-2018, 11:45 AM

Gives me goosebumps just reading this.

The way AXA have treated you on the key reading alone it looks like they can distinguish between:

1)The key signal being highjacked for JUST unlocking & starting the car.
2)Having the key present in the car while it went on that 10 mile trip.

Assuming the latter someone must have taken your keys and returned it later in the evening. Why might a thief do this? Maybe to avoid any immediate cctv investigation of inside the restaurant. Also very difficult to prosecute i imagine as the keys returned without you knowing.

Keep us posted!

Flying Ace · 08-31-2018, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caipi

No, car has not been recovered.

Insurance accusing me of having stolen or organised theft of my car.
I went with a friend to a restaurant at 8pm. We paid at around midnight. Car gone. I was in possession of the key. Went to police station to report missing car.

Insurance company sent someone to take some further notes and took both keys and registration documents.

7 days later, key fob was read out at BMW.

I requested all documents and keys back as they refuse to pay as this is still my property.

Now they want to do another fob reading in presence of their/ my lawyer and a bailiff to have all official.

I questioned them why this has not been done like this at the very beginning.
They took keys and had 7 days to play around with data stored on fob.

Is it true, that when a car is stolen by catching the fob signal by an amplifier and driven away (car thinks that key is present).

If it is true that additional miles driven with the car will now be added on the fob as the car thinks that the original fob was in the car to start it and drive away, this would be a very valuable point.

I heart that thieves try to get the fob's signal and manage to open cars and drive away but I am unaware that the additional miles etc will then be stored on the fob even the fob has not been used to open the car or drive the car away.

This could be a game changer if this is true.

Thanks a lot for your comments:

Fighting a criminal (Insurance) organisation.

They play on time, manipulate, falsely accuse and hope that I do not have the guts to go to court, pay my lawyer and have the time to go through courts;

Cheers,

I think it's possible that the fob can still register the miles initially. Ultimately, someone at BMW needs to explain technically if it's possible. The problem is, the insurance company isn't going to go out of its way to investigate this. You need to get your lawyer to reach out to BMW for a technical explanation. Here in the US, if a technical expert (such as someone at BMW) simply states the situation is possible, it's sufficient evidence in court. Now the details can be debated between the two sides whether it really is what happened or not, but it gets lengthy and expensive at that point and I can see the insurance company settling with you in that situation.

caipi · 08-31-2018, 10:06 PM

Thank you guys for your help.

I have to research myself as much as possible before going to a solicitor. The more work I do, the easier and quicker and cheaper it will be.

The way AXA treated me is the following:

Probably a thief nicked my keys of out my jacket whilst I was having diner but which thief would be so stupid to bring the key back.

Now, I would be the idiot of the century if I get out of the restaurant, hand over my key to a criminal, go to have diner, wait a few hours and happily get my keys back.

I know very well that those smart keys hold a lot of information as mileage, oil service etc. It is not my first BMW and I know that when I go to the garage, they always read my keys out.

I would be an imbecile handing over keys and getting them back to report a theft.

If I wanted to get rid of my car like this, I would never ever get the keys back, just tell police/Insurance the car was nicked and keys have been stolen.

Now the big issue is:
Insurance guy came to pick up all things at my home. They took a week before going for the fob reading to a BMW dealer.

Why has this not been done in presence of an official person like a bailiff or lawyer to pick up the keys and hand over to BMW to avoid any doubt?

Now that I requested my property back, they insist that if I doubt the fob reading, a new one will be done in presence of their and my lawyer and a bailiff.

Very strange. Refusing to hand keys back to me or my insurance broker.

They could have manipulated data on my key to add extra miles just to have a case that I am involved in the theft of my car as no thief would bring me the keys back.

is it technically possible that the fob signal has been hacked (apparently there are many devices out there who can do this), the thief drove away but the fob which was hacked thinks that it was used to start and drive the car and recorded those additional miles?

AXA plays on time and hope that I can't afford a lawyer and do not have the time and guts to go to court for probably a few years.

I was now contacted by someone who also is with AXA. His BMW was stolen whilst he was at a hotel in a Belgian sea town. He found out the following day that car was gone and had the same procedure.
AXA did a fob reading and there were a 80miles added on the fob with time recorded. As he was at the hotel, he was sleeping but the car was still driven around but never found back.

He went to court but lost the case which cost him a fortune.

The thing here, AXA even lost his key fobs!!!

If I can get some evidence that if a fob is hacked, if it still can record data as it would if used correctly.

Thanks a lot guys. Difficult times, fighting a criminal organisation which accuses an honest person of being a thief.
Hope I will get justice.

elvisisdog · 09-01-2018, 03:51 PM

Go to press, daily mail loves this kind of sh1t.

Your barking up the wrong tree with the insurer hacking your key. What would be in it for them? The reputational damage wouldn't be worth it, remember there underwritten so it isn't going to cost them that much that they haven't already accounted for in your premium cost.

Start researching the key being hijacked using amplifier. I'm assuming you have comfort access? Plus why aren't you all over bmw to find out what they know about your GPS readings from car? As it's your car should be a freedom of information request.

caipi · 09-02-2018, 08:27 PM

thanks a lot guys.

BMW is not a big help. They know now, that my 640d Cabrio was stolen and probably the fob signal was hacked. I asked them specifically if there is any chance that after the fob has been hacked and the car been driven away, is it possible that additional miles are added on my fob even it I didn't use it? No response. This is the issue here. Car stolen but I have both keys. Insurance company have read out both keys and on one, there are an additional 11miles. Car was driven whilst I was in a restaurant. I want to find out if reading on fob continues after the signal was hacked and car driven away. This would make my life much easier, fighting against insurance company which is not willing to pay out and accusing me of having handed over keys to someone else in order to steal my car. (how stupid it this?)

Kev.k · 09-03-2018, 06:57 AM

Tell them you are more than happy to go to court, but you will want compensation for the undue stress this has caused you.

Also say you have contacted the relevant ombudsman.

They will pay out before they go to court.

mgattmch · 09-04-2018, 01:34 AM

This is a very interesting post, I hope the outcome results in a satisfactory resolution for you. Clearly, your insurance company is acting like a first class jerk. Good luck, please keep us posted.

murph914 · 09-04-2018, 09:13 PM

Whoa. I wonder how the laws in the US differ from the UK. I can't imagine anyone getting treated like that here. Then again, I can't see why the UK would be any different.

I would imagine BMW knows this is an issue and is doing everything they can to avoid admitting their cars are easily stolen.

As has already been stated your next step if you want to avoid professional counsel is to appeal to the media gods. Start emailing and calling all the outlets you can anywhere you can. I'm sure someone is bored and would love to tear into this.

Keep us posted.

caipi · 09-06-2018, 09:22 PM

no feedback from BMW if when a car is stolen by hijacking signal from key fob.
I asked if it is possible that there is some additional data stored on fob after car has been stolen by hijacking fob.
In my case, car stolen and there were an additional 10miles driven with the car after I left it at the restaurant. I need to prove that data on fob changes if fob hijacked and car stolen.
BMW stays quiet.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/6162...less-car-fobs/

caipi · 09-10-2018, 12:53 AM

still nothing from BMW. They do not reply to my request if technically it is possible after a key fob signal was hijacked to steal a car, if it is possible that there is additional data stored on the original key fob.

AXA are not interested in investigating this (they probably have refused many pay-outs by accusing car owner of being involved in the theft of their own car.
BMW is not helping as this would probably make there security problem known and they would get in trouble.

Still hoping to get detailed answers if this would be technically possible and then, I go with AXA to court.

elvisisdog · 09-10-2018, 01:45 PM

Have you had a look at the scare stories in the tabloids and what's been documented on programmes like watchdog? Must caveat that none of these are my regular thing but I'm sure there's been plenty evidenced about this. Maybe you could get interest from one of them to investigate for you..

08-30-2018, 06:58 AM	#1
caipi New Member 0 Rep 12 Posts Drives: 640D Cabrio stolen Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Edinburgh iTrader: (0)	cabrio stolen Hi community, 2 months ago, I was having dinner with family in a nice restaurant. We arrived at around 8pm and left around midnight. When we went out, surprise, our car was gone. We were wondering around to see if we did leave the car further down the road. 30 minutes later, we called Police and where told to go to the station to report a potential theft. We were in Lisbon on holidays with our car. We took a flight back home and informed our insurance. They sent an insurance claim officer who came along with plenty of questions. He asked for both keys (which we have), registration documents etc. 3 weeks later, they come back to me, saying claim is rejected as they did a reading of both keys and saw that on one key, car was driven 2 hours after we were in the restaurant and was driven for 10 miles. They basically say, that either me has driven the car or I have given keys to someone else. It would be very un-normal that a thief steals your keys, drives away and brings keys back. I do not know, if someone took out the key out of my jacket when we were having lunch.What I know is, when we left the restaurant, car was gone but I was in possession of my key. I searched a bit the internet and saw that other people had same problem with AXA insurance. They claim that they did the car key reading and that car was still being used minutes or hours after the car was supposed to be parked. I requested my keys back and now some kind of panicking. They want their solicitor, my solicitor, a bailiff present to the reading of the keys. They did sent me a read out of the keys done at a BMW garage and there I can see, that the car was moved around 2 hours being in the restaurant and driven around 10 miles. Why was there no official (bailiff) present to pick up the keys or during the reading? The insurance guy took the keys and 7 days later, the reading was done. Now they want everything done in presence of solicitors and bailiff. Could there be any possibility that they have altered data on my key fob? I was in touch with a Coder and he told me, that with the right software, that would not be a problem. Some advice would be very much appreciated. Going to court will cost a fortune. Just for the records: Car is not leased, there is no finance, there are no financial problems. I could if I wanted, have sold the car 10 times so no need to get into something dodgy like stealing my own car. Thanks a lot.
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08-30-2018, 07:26 AM	#2
MARKPRIOR Captain 156 Rep 659 Posts Drives: 2017 M6 GC Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Newcastle iTrader: (0)	Ouch..... i would be questioning things like timezones GMT vs BST vs whatever the car / keys record i would imagine keys are coded from factory which would be GMT+2 Central European Summer Time Time zone in Munich, Germany (GMT+2) Thursday, 30 August 2018, 14:26 Have you tried connected drive locate car function ? __________________ Current: 2017 M6 Gran Coupe Previous:2014 640D GC 383BHP + 733NM, F10 2010 530d 520i (2000), E36 comact 318i, E46 M3, E46 318Ci, X5, Non BMW: 5x Skyline / GTRs, 5x Supras, 2x Nissan 200sx s14a, lots of other stuff
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08-30-2018, 07:57 AM	#3
babaikram M6GCComp, Porsche Cayman S PDK, Peug 208 GT1 BPS 512 Rep 1,280 Posts Drives: . Join Date: May 2015 Location: England iTrader: (0)	I know the thieves are now using a technology in which they can remotely send a signal from your own key to open a car and start the engine of a car in order to steal. This happens with cars that have comfort access. It is now quite common in areas such as London etc. A tons have been reported on internet
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08-30-2018, 07:58 AM	#4
JamieTailor Enlisted Member 16 Rep 48 Posts Drives: BMW 640D GC Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Wokingham iTrader: (0)	Not sure if it's possible but perhaps some CCTV footage from the restaurant to see you not giving the keys or something like that?
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08-30-2018, 10:54 AM	#5
caipi New Member 0 Rep 12 Posts Drives: 640D Cabrio stolen Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Edinburgh iTrader: (0)	It's the following: AXA is accusing me of stealing my own car or having organised theft of it. Reading of fob says that after I have been at the restaurant, another 10 were added, 2 hours after I left the car close to the restaurant. When I left the restaurant, I had the keys and car was gone. They did a reading of the fobs at BMW one week after the insurance guy came to pick them up. Now that I request my keys back, they insist to do a reading of fobs when my lawyer, their lawyer and a bailiff is present. Why it took them 1 week to do the reading at BMW? Now they want all in presence of officials. I think they cover something up. They probably manipulated data on my fob to make it look as I am guilty of theft of my own car, just not to pay. I spoke to a coder and he told me, with the right software, they could have change the reading on the car keys/fob. After searching the net, AXA is notorious of not paying out. Any chance to fight them in court? Regards,
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08-30-2018, 12:52 PM	#6
elvisisdog Second Lieutenant 34 Rep 209 Posts Drives: F06 MSport 2013/09 Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	I'm assuming your car had comfort access? If so this should be a satisfactory explanation to how the car can be stolen without your keys. From what I understand they use the signal from the key, amplify it to gain access to the car. If so then I guess it's also possible the key thinks it's actively in use. CCTV may help but unlikely the data exists after so much time had passed, I'm assuming this all happened weeks ago. From a legal perspective are there any cases that went to court? I'd be surprised of a conspiracy theory in the insurance company. Suspect it's more related to how the car was stolen. Wanting legal representatives involved is purely them covering themselves in case of legal challenge. I'm surprised bmw can't help further on the basis of how much GPS information the car apparently gives off to assist with real time traffic updates.
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08-30-2018, 01:45 PM	#7
Flying Ace Lieutenant General 4985 Rep 11,891 Posts Drives: G05 45e, 997.1 & 991.1 GT3s Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: SF, CA iTrader: (5)	I'm confused. Are you in possession of your car now? I'm aware of the hack for comfort access cars, but how are these cars not recoverable? Modern BMWs all have their GPS activated and is tracked. Here in the US, when a car gets stolen, the police can access the GPS location within a day and recover the vehicle. Ultimately, your insurance company appears to be amateurs. This BMW theft issue is widely known in the industry, it's not difficult for them to ask BMW why your situation happened in which your key logged records of it operating the car as it pertains to the hack. I'm sure the hack amplifies your key's signals, so initially, it'll register the key as operating the car. I still don't understand why the car is not recoverable as the GPS is hooked up. Sure the thieves can unhook the GPS, but up to that point, they should have pinpointed the last location of the transponder. But really the REAL problem is Russia. It appears they dont' even care about ensuring they're not registering stolen cars. Here the in US, there's a registration of VIN numbers for cars that are stolen. A thief will never be able to register a stolen car in the US. The parts on the cars are rarely of any value, and the most valuable parts (the engine) has the VIN stamped on it so it's hard to resell it. __________________ 22 Phytonic/Coffee X5 45e (CoVID-free) 08 Speed Yellow 911 GT3 Sharkwerks 12 AW/Cinnamon X5d Sports Pkg (retired) 14 AW/Beige M6GC ZCP, MPE, V2 steering wheel, vorsteiner (retired) 08 SSII/Black E90 M3 (retired) Last edited by Flying Ace; 08-30-2018 at 02:18 PM..
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08-30-2018, 02:02 PM	#8
murph914 Second Lieutenant 66 Rep 282 Posts Drives: 2014 650i Convertible Join Date: May 2007 Location: Massachusetts iTrader: (0)	Yikes. Accusing of grand theft is a pretty serious accusation. Insurance companies by rule are almost all scum. Get yourself a lawyer and let them duke it out. In the meantime you will need to purchase a new car and pay the legal fees. With all the technology on these care you would think they would be able to track this sort of thing down. Good luck. Now the pressing bit - What are you getting next?
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08-30-2018, 04:36 PM	#9
AZ_Bmw_550 Private First Class 52 Rep 183 Posts Drives: 2015 BMW 650i GC Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: United States iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 BMW 550i [0.00]	I would think that they'd need more proof than the key to deny the claim. I mean they could deny it, but I doubt that it would hold up in court.
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08-31-2018, 11:00 AM	#11
murph914 Second Lieutenant 66 Rep 282 Posts Drives: 2014 650i Convertible Join Date: May 2007 Location: Massachusetts iTrader: (0)	occam's razor Someone probably lifted it from your jacket and then put the key back after driving 15 minutes away. There are people out there that are just that good at it. This would be MUCH easier than trying to code the key. And then recoding the key to put the miles back on the key are more likely than a criminal conspiracy at (I'm guessing here because I live in the US) a well known insurance company. If there is some clause that means the insurance company can wiggle out of paying if this is the case I would be very careful what you say. This is what you should be talking to the lawyer about. You should ask him if you should suggest that maybe your jacket was unattended while you went to the washroom or something. God I hate lawyers and insurance companies. Just my $0.02
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08-31-2018, 11:45 AM	#12
The0pportunist Major 471 Rep 1,268 Posts Drives: F30 335i Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: London iTrader: (0)	Gives me goosebumps just reading this. The way AXA have treated you on the key reading alone it looks like they can distinguish between: 1)The key signal being highjacked for JUST unlocking & starting the car. 2)Having the key present in the car while it went on that 10 mile trip. Assuming the latter someone must have taken your keys and returned it later in the evening. Why might a thief do this? Maybe to avoid any immediate cctv investigation of inside the restaurant. Also very difficult to prosecute i imagine as the keys returned without you knowing. Keep us posted!
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08-31-2018, 10:06 PM	#14
caipi New Member 0 Rep 12 Posts Drives: 640D Cabrio stolen Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Edinburgh iTrader: (0)	Thank you guys for your help. I have to research myself as much as possible before going to a solicitor. The more work I do, the easier and quicker and cheaper it will be. The way AXA treated me is the following: Probably a thief nicked my keys of out my jacket whilst I was having diner but which thief would be so stupid to bring the key back. Now, I would be the idiot of the century if I get out of the restaurant, hand over my key to a criminal, go to have diner, wait a few hours and happily get my keys back. I know very well that those smart keys hold a lot of information as mileage, oil service etc. It is not my first BMW and I know that when I go to the garage, they always read my keys out. I would be an imbecile handing over keys and getting them back to report a theft. If I wanted to get rid of my car like this, I would never ever get the keys back, just tell police/Insurance the car was nicked and keys have been stolen. Now the big issue is: Insurance guy came to pick up all things at my home. They took a week before going for the fob reading to a BMW dealer. Why has this not been done in presence of an official person like a bailiff or lawyer to pick up the keys and hand over to BMW to avoid any doubt? Now that I requested my property back, they insist that if I doubt the fob reading, a new one will be done in presence of their and my lawyer and a bailiff. Very strange. Refusing to hand keys back to me or my insurance broker. They could have manipulated data on my key to add extra miles just to have a case that I am involved in the theft of my car as no thief would bring me the keys back. is it technically possible that the fob signal has been hacked (apparently there are many devices out there who can do this), the thief drove away but the fob which was hacked thinks that it was used to start and drive the car and recorded those additional miles? AXA plays on time and hope that I can't afford a lawyer and do not have the time and guts to go to court for probably a few years. I was now contacted by someone who also is with AXA. His BMW was stolen whilst he was at a hotel in a Belgian sea town. He found out the following day that car was gone and had the same procedure. AXA did a fob reading and there were a 80miles added on the fob with time recorded. As he was at the hotel, he was sleeping but the car was still driven around but never found back. He went to court but lost the case which cost him a fortune. The thing here, AXA even lost his key fobs!!! If I can get some evidence that if a fob is hacked, if it still can record data as it would if used correctly. Thanks a lot guys. Difficult times, fighting a criminal organisation which accuses an honest person of being a thief. Hope I will get justice.
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09-01-2018, 03:51 PM	#15
elvisisdog Second Lieutenant 34 Rep 209 Posts Drives: F06 MSport 2013/09 Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	Go to press, daily mail loves this kind of sh1t. Your barking up the wrong tree with the insurer hacking your key. What would be in it for them? The reputational damage wouldn't be worth it, remember there underwritten so it isn't going to cost them that much that they haven't already accounted for in your premium cost. Start researching the key being hijacked using amplifier. I'm assuming you have comfort access? Plus why aren't you all over bmw to find out what they know about your GPS readings from car? As it's your car should be a freedom of information request.
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09-02-2018, 08:27 PM	#16
caipi New Member 0 Rep 12 Posts Drives: 640D Cabrio stolen Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Edinburgh iTrader: (0)	thanks a lot guys. BMW is not a big help. They know now, that my 640d Cabrio was stolen and probably the fob signal was hacked. I asked them specifically if there is any chance that after the fob has been hacked and the car been driven away, is it possible that additional miles are added on my fob even it I didn't use it? No response. This is the issue here. Car stolen but I have both keys. Insurance company have read out both keys and on one, there are an additional 11miles. Car was driven whilst I was in a restaurant. I want to find out if reading on fob continues after the signal was hacked and car driven away. This would make my life much easier, fighting against insurance company which is not willing to pay out and accusing me of having handed over keys to someone else in order to steal my car. (how stupid it this?)
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09-03-2018, 06:57 AM	#17
Kev.k Enlisted Member 12 Rep 43 Posts Drives: VW Amarok Highline Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Uk iTrader: (0)	Tell them you are more than happy to go to court, but you will want compensation for the undue stress this has caused you. Also say you have contacted the relevant ombudsman. They will pay out before they go to court.
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09-04-2018, 01:34 AM	#18
mgattmch Private First Class 29 Rep 122 Posts Drives: 2015 650iX GC Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Chesterton, IN iTrader: (0)	This is a very interesting post, I hope the outcome results in a satisfactory resolution for you. Clearly, your insurance company is acting like a first class jerk. Good luck, please keep us posted.
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09-04-2018, 09:13 PM	#19
murph914 Second Lieutenant 66 Rep 282 Posts Drives: 2014 650i Convertible Join Date: May 2007 Location: Massachusetts iTrader: (0)	Whoa. I wonder how the laws in the US differ from the UK. I can't imagine anyone getting treated like that here. Then again, I can't see why the UK would be any different. I would imagine BMW knows this is an issue and is doing everything they can to avoid admitting their cars are easily stolen. As has already been stated your next step if you want to avoid professional counsel is to appeal to the media gods. Start emailing and calling all the outlets you can anywhere you can. I'm sure someone is bored and would love to tear into this. Keep us posted.
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09-06-2018, 09:22 PM	#20
caipi New Member 0 Rep 12 Posts Drives: 640D Cabrio stolen Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Edinburgh iTrader: (0)	no feedback from BMW if when a car is stolen by hijacking signal from key fob. I asked if it is possible that there is some additional data stored on fob after car has been stolen by hijacking fob. In my case, car stolen and there were an additional 10miles driven with the car after I left it at the restaurant. I need to prove that data on fob changes if fob hijacked and car stolen. BMW stays quiet. https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/6162...less-car-fobs/
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09-10-2018, 12:53 AM	#21
caipi New Member 0 Rep 12 Posts Drives: 640D Cabrio stolen Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Edinburgh iTrader: (0)	still nothing from BMW. They do not reply to my request if technically it is possible after a key fob signal was hijacked to steal a car, if it is possible that there is additional data stored on the original key fob. AXA are not interested in investigating this (they probably have refused many pay-outs by accusing car owner of being involved in the theft of their own car. BMW is not helping as this would probably make there security problem known and they would get in trouble. Still hoping to get detailed answers if this would be technically possible and then, I go with AXA to court.
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09-10-2018, 01:45 PM	#22
elvisisdog Second Lieutenant 34 Rep 209 Posts Drives: F06 MSport 2013/09 Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	Have you had a look at the scare stories in the tabloids and what's been documented on programmes like watchdog? Must caveat that none of these are my regular thing but I'm sure there's been plenty evidenced about this. Maybe you could get interest from one of them to investigate for you..
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