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      04-28-2020, 11:16 PM   #1
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I'm just confused with all the numbers

My buddy got a 2014 M6. I was a little confused on why because he had been saying he loved the LCI lights so I asked him why.

His reply was simply "The 2014" is faster.
Now I'm really confused. Both of ours are GC competitions, mine technically should be getting more HP because it's a 2017. Though when I google any of the status on websites I see numbers all over the place. 3.5,3.7,4.1. My trusted website is fastestlaps. and it's putting the 2014 at 3.7 while the the 2016 sits at 4.1.
Man I'm confused, so I just said hell to it, and said let's just race.
First of all we attempted multiple runs using different launch setups. traction off, traction MDM etc. Most times I won, but I'm not sure if I truly did, I just have more experience with launching her, and our tires life spans are different which could mean a lot too.

I'm just confused, is there even a 0-60 difference between the 40hp vs 15hp versions? Is the 40 just adding more wheel spin and making it worse?
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      04-29-2020, 12:08 AM   #2
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0-60 is much more down to the tyre, surface quality etc than anything else.

560/575/600ps versions could easily lose or win to each other on any given day. Give me R888R tyres on a 560ps version and I'll smoke a 600ps car on shitty Pzero tyres every time.

'faster' isn't just 0-60 either. In almost every RWD car available since about 2010 it just isn't relevant to anything apart from traffic light drag races
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      04-29-2020, 07:17 AM   #3
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Well everyone knows the 2014s are the fastest....

Are both your cars comp package? They should come out pretty close no matter what if both are stock. I would recommend a 60-120 pull. Your extra power should be on the top end if you are going to pull away. Also you guys could just both go put your cars on dynos to see who is actually making more power.
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      04-29-2020, 07:49 AM   #4
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The difference in power on stock flashes is only at the top of the rev range @6500 rpm. Once both cars are tuned they would be the same. Imo unless you are leaving the car stock. The comp pack is not worth it. If you leave it alone, its s nice little extra touch.
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      05-01-2020, 08:30 AM   #5
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It may seem that 40hp more is a lot, but the various engines and setup will have a different true output. In a standing still race it is reaction time, tires, traction, shift points, etc and all this will make a huge difference on the result if you are only running to 60mph. On the comp Vs non-comp package if you look at the graphs that BMW shows the curves are identical up to 200rpm before red line, so the 0.1s that BMW quotes is a marketing thing.
Here is a dyno summary from a stock non-comp with a performance exhaust MPE. If you assume only 11% loses based on research of the new drive train systems do your math...these are powerful GT cruisers
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      05-07-2020, 12:47 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomM6 View Post
It may seem that 40hp more is a lot, but the various engines and setup will have a different true output. In a standing still race it is reaction time, tires, traction, shift points, etc and all this will make a huge difference on the result if you are only running to 60mph. On the comp Vs non-comp package if you look at the graphs that BMW shows the curves are identical up to 200rpm before red line, so the 0.1s that BMW quotes is a marketing thing.
Here is a dyno summary from a stock non-comp with a performance exhaust MPE. If you assume only 11% loses based on research of the new drive train systems do your math...these are powerful GT cruisers
Is this dyno graph two runs of the same car? What was the difference between run one and run two?
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      05-07-2020, 12:51 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godborn View Post
My buddy got a 2014 M6. I was a little confused on why because he had been saying he loved the LCI lights so I asked him why.

His reply was simply "The 2014" is faster.
Now I'm really confused. Both of ours are GC competitions, mine technically should be getting more HP because it's a 2017. Though when I google any of the status on websites I see numbers all over the place. 3.5,3.7,4.1. My trusted website is fastestlaps. and it's putting the 2014 at 3.7 while the the 2016 sits at 4.1.
Man I'm confused, so I just said hell to it, and said let's just race.
First of all we attempted multiple runs using different launch setups. traction off, traction MDM etc. Most times I won, but I'm not sure if I truly did, I just have more experience with launching her, and our tires life spans are different which could mean a lot too.

I'm just confused, is there even a 0-60 difference between the 40hp vs 15hp versions? Is the 40 just adding more wheel spin and making it worse?
I don't know if you're confusing things, but the 2016 competition package is rated at 600 HP, and the 2014 and 2015 competition package cars are rated at 575HP.

I don't recall specifics, but I believe BMW simply just retuned the car, likely by adding boost pressure. The stock cars already run rich, and a very easy way to extract small amounts of horsepower out of a turbo car it's just turning up the boost a bit.

All other technical aspects of the competition package across the entire model range did not change.

If you're trying to compare 0 to 60 times, especially between minute differences of LCI vs pre-LCI, it's more going to be the difference of the conditions and the driver rather than the car. Don't let marketing numbers fool you.

So if anyone's reading this and trying to consider LCI vs pre-LCI, for competition pkg, the key thing to consider is whether you like the upgraded headlights, and depending on the model year, what version of the iDrive is acceptable to you.
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Last edited by Flying Ace; 05-07-2020 at 01:03 PM..
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      05-07-2020, 01:29 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Ace View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomM6 View Post
It may seem that 40hp more is a lot, but the various engines and setup will have a different true output. In a standing still race it is reaction time, tires, traction, shift points, etc and all this will make a huge difference on the result if you are only running to 60mph. On the comp Vs non-comp package if you look at the graphs that BMW shows the curves are identical up to 200rpm before red line, so the 0.1s that BMW quotes is a marketing thing.
Here is a dyno summary from a stock non-comp with a performance exhaust MPE. If you assume only 11% loses based on research of the new drive train systems do your math...these are powerful GT cruisers
Is this dyno graph two runs of the same car? What was the difference between run one and run two?
It is two runs during the same dyno session, these will always be a little different, but very similar. You can see where the engine cuts off at 7200rpm

By the way if we assume 11% drive train losses we get close to 620hp and 560lbft for the regular M6 with an MPE...this gives you an idea about the M6 power in general
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      05-07-2020, 04:48 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomM6 View Post
It is two runs during the same dyno session, these will always be a little different, but very similar. You can see where the engine cuts off at 7200rpm

By the way if we assume 11% drive train losses we get close to 620hp and 560lbft for the regular M6 with an MPE...this gives you an idea about the M6 power in general
Got it. Yeah, That's a great way to show the variability in dyno graphs. Same car, same dyno, but the machine margin of error and perhaps the atmospheric conditions affect the figures in a material way.

I'm not surprised by this run. BMW has been under rating its turbo engines. I typically go by base assumption that T0 and T2 motors are 600 hp. T4s are 620.
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      05-07-2020, 05:42 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Ace View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomM6 View Post
It is two runs during the same dyno session, these will always be a little different, but very similar. You can see where the engine cuts off at 7200rpm

By the way if we assume 11% drive train losses we get close to 620hp and 560lbft for the regular M6 with an MPE...this gives you an idea about the M6 power in general
Got it. Yeah, That's a great way to show the variability in dyno graphs. Same car, same dyno, but the machine margin of error and perhaps the atmospheric conditions affect the figures in a material way.

I'm not surprised by this run. BMW has been under rating its turbo engines. I typically go by base assumption that T0 and T2 motors are 600 hp. T4s are 620.
Agreed! Even as the engine temperature increases the power curve will change, there is always uncertainty in the measurements
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      05-07-2020, 07:30 PM   #11
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The 600ps one also has a little bit more torque:

560ps: 680nm from 1500-5750rpm
575ps: 680nm from 1500-6000rpm
600ps: 700nm from 1500-6000rpm

Curiously the 600ps one is just at a peak, the others have power across a small band:

560ps and 575ps: 6000-7000rpm
600ps: 6250rpm
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      05-07-2020, 08:48 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
The 600ps one also has a little bit more torque:

560ps: 680nm from 1500-5750rpm
575ps: 680nm from 1500-6000rpm
600ps: 700nm from 1500-6000rpm

Curiously the 600ps one is just at a peak, the others have power across a small band:

560ps and 575ps: 6000-7000rpm
600ps: 6250rpm
Not 2 engines are the same, the numbers presented by the companies are based on several runs of the engine itself in a controlled environment and after several data points the data is post processed to a probability of P95/50 or other algorithm that guarantees that all engines will not fall below this curve with calculated margin.
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      05-07-2020, 09:51 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomM6 View Post
Not 2 engines are the same, the numbers presented by the companies are based on several runs of the engine itself in a controlled environment and after several data points the data is post processed to a probability of P95/50 or other algorithm that guarantees that all engines will not fall below this curve with calculated margin.
Yep and can you imagine the variability and power for hand built engines? If you're on Nissan GT-R forms that's all the owners talk about.
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      05-07-2020, 10:57 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomM6 View Post
Not 2 engines are the same, the numbers presented by the companies are based on several runs of the engine itself in a controlled environment and after several data points the data is post processed to a probability of P95/50 or other algorithm that guarantees that all engines will not fall below this curve with calculated margin.
Completely true, I do wonder if having turbos allows BMW to keep them quite a bit closer than it was in the old S85 or S65 days.

I also call complete rubbish on the 1500rpm figure for max torque, I feel like 2000rpm or so it much more realistic. Not a complaint though - the engine is just so amazing I don't think you could complain about anything at all in regards to power delivery.
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      05-08-2020, 07:32 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomM6 View Post
Not 2 engines are the same, the numbers presented by the companies are based on several runs of the engine itself in a controlled environment and after several data points the data is post processed to a probability of P95/50 or other algorithm that guarantees that all engines will not fall below this curve with calculated margin.
Completely true, I do wonder if having turbos allows BMW to keep them quite a bit closer than it was in the old S85 or S65 days.

I also call complete rubbish on the 1500rpm figure for max torque, I feel like 2000rpm or so it much more realistic. Not a complaint though - the engine is just so amazing I don't think you could complain about anything at all in regards to power delivery.
Absolutely, if you understand engineering you have to appreciate the design and mechanicals of this car which I consider one of the best GT cars BMW ever made. Although I enjoy car racing, I do not feel I need to go 150mph to appreciate the refinement of this specific model. The engine and transmission are engineering masterpieces. At least I really enjoy driving this car and that is what matters... you all enjoy in good health
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      06-05-2020, 11:17 AM   #16
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This video confuses me... looks like the m6 competition is quicker below 120kmh but then the m6 non-competition is quicker up to 270kmh



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm_156MljCQ
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      06-06-2020, 09:19 PM   #17
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Spend 1900 on a simple tune to get -
100+ hp and call is a day

Either way the car is fast - not sure if in the car if u can tell diff between 3.8 vs 4.0

Get tune - kick a$$

Call is a day

Good luck
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