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      03-08-2018, 09:36 AM   #45
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I've been doing CrossFit for 3.5 years. I love it. I was at the same box for 2.5 years without a single injury but switched to another for 3 months and got injured pretty quickly. New box didn't focus on warming up and the structure was shit with thoughtless workouts just meant to crush you.

I switched back to my original gym which is no longer a CrossFit affiliate, it is now OPEX. OPEX is non-competitive and 100% tailored by your dedicated coach. Nobody to compare myself to - I just race the clock or myself each day and I think it takes the best parts of CrossFit and enhances it. A lot of competitive CrossFitters use the program and thrive on it. I've noticed significant gains in short time, much more than I ever achieved in a class setting.
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      03-08-2018, 09:58 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Performancedieselpros View Post
I got a bad taste in my mouth for CF in 08 just before the wave and I'll never forget the guy that said to me go get CF cert'd and you'll see your 6 different training certifications mean nothing for the body. I just smiled and said ok. My biggest pet peeve is the WOD concepts and lack of real complimentive structure, especially when against the clock. #rhabdoisntcool

Another big flaw that results in a lot of injuries is excessive mobility or hyoerflexion of joints. People forget that the muscles are giant rubber bands essentially and there is supposed to be a certain level of "tightness". That and the fact that in the 3 ranges of motion the body has, somehow CF discovered a non existent 4th Lol.

Bad coaches are beyond the problem, and IF people think the "bro" mentality of the gym is exhausting then just go to a CF facility. It automatically is a room full of experts, and what they teach is the right way..... and everybody is cookie cutter in teachings of alignment.

In order to even step foot in a CF facility one should have a sheer understanding of strict training, and a background in physical activity and NOT obese! The movements are not designed for a novice user and that includes using PVC to do RDLs or overhead squats and someone who's obese in the first place!

It's good thing you went hybrid though, we've called it cross-training for the last 30yrs!!

In all seriousness though, this chick is probably one of the best examples to adherence to mechanics and hybrid philosophy.

https://www.instagram.com/steficohen/
Everyone has a different experience with their introduction to CF, mine was a good one back in 2009. Sounds like not so much in your case. I will agree CF can be more injury prone due to the intensity and vast array of movement combinations. Those who are out of shape and obese really need to be careful on how they begin training in CF. A better way for these ppl to start would be more of a CF Lite type training to those starting from square one with little to no exercise or fitness experience.

IMO CF was better off when it was a more specialized type of training for those already in shape and familiar with a majority of the movements. Example...I was a collegiate Football / Lacrosse player so during those years and after I did Cleans, Snatches, plyo and agility stuff all rolled together during season and off season. My body was already adapted to this type of training.

When CF went to the masses and started chasing the money things changed. Not everyone is built for CF. But I say hey give it a try, but you need to recognize if it’s not for you.

As for Stef Cohen I’ve seen lots of her videos, impressive girl. Puts up some great numbers.
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      03-08-2018, 10:35 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Performancedieselpros View Post
Koolaid must be tart where your from buddy!

C.F. abso-damn-lutely has a greater risk of injury..... when a test pool of 112 conditioned applicants in a 8 week period of time results in more than 75% sustaining limiting injury that's a problem in program design!

Top 2 injury causing activities are Running and CF!

Running due to volume of individuals performing on daily basis, resulting in knee, hip, plantar issues, and the occasional strain or pull.

CF which is a much more explosive motion with a greater sudden loading on XYZ joint. Often resulting in much more catastrophic damage.

The common types of injuries in a more traditional gym are just that traditional.... strains, pulls, sprains, and selfies

Links to your study, please. It's not the one from Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research (2013), I hope.

https://www.thealternativedaily.com/...rossfit-study/

...After an investigation, the NCSA retracted the original data and issued accurate findings in the October issue of the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research. Their erratum states, “After the article was published, 10 of the 11 participants who did not complete the study have provided their reasons for not finishing, with only 2 mentioning injury or health conditions that prevented them from completing follow-up testing.”...

No Kool Aid drinking here. Sorry to disappoint.

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full...25967114531177
...A total of 486 CrossFit participants completed the survey, and 386 met the inclusion criteria. The overall injury rate was determined to be 19.4%...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28085123
...CONCLUSIONS:
The injury incidence rate associated with CrossFit training was low, and comparable to other forms of recreational fitness activities. Previous injury and gender were identified as risk factors for injury, whilst the role of movement competency in this setting warrants further investigation
...
(emphasis mine)


https://www.realclearscience.com/blo..._kill_you.html
..."Injury rates with CrossFit training are similar to that reported in the literature for sports such as Olympic weight-lifting, power-lifting and gymnastics and lower than competitive contact sports such as rugby union and rugby league," the researchers reported.

And that rate is positively puny compared to sports like soccer, skiing, and football. Even running may be more dangerous. A 2010 study followed recreational runners for eight weeks as they trained for a 4-mile race. 30.1 injuries were reported for every 1,000 hours of running
...
(emphasis mine)



You were saying?
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      03-08-2018, 12:17 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by FlaPatsFan View Post
Everyone has a different experience with their introduction to CF, mine was a good one back in 2009. Sounds like not so much in your case. I will agree CF can be more injury prone due to the intensity and vast array of movement combinations. Those who are out of shape and obese really need to be careful on how they begin training in CF. A better way for these ppl to start would be more of a CF Lite type training to those starting from square one with little to no exercise or fitness experience.

IMO CF was better off when it was a more specialized type of training for those already in shape and familiar with a majority of the movements. Example...I was a collegiate Football / Lacrosse player so during those years and after I did Cleans, Snatches, plyo and agility stuff all rolled together during season and off season. My body was already adapted to this type of training.

When CF went to the masses and started chasing the money things changed. Not everyone is built for CF. But I say hey give it a try, but you need to recognize if it’s not for you.

As for Stef Cohen I’ve seen lots of her videos, impressive girl. Puts up some great numbers.
Agreed 100%!

It really is a shame as I think the money component really soured what the original focus was.

The interesting thing in genetics play a huuuuuge factor and the volume of fast twitch muscles required.

I feel the best thing Greg Glassman did was put a relative definition to what fitness is!
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      03-08-2018, 12:25 PM   #49
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Genetics really are everything in any strength sport, and especially bbing.

I never bothered competing in PLing because a 1800+ total might make you the strongest guy in almost any gym but it's nothing when you're up against guys who benched 405 back in high school and can raw squat 800.

Its even more depressing in bbing, I've seen someone train for 6 months and win the overall at the NPC show in LA, then immediately quit and go back to looking like they never touched a weight lol
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      03-08-2018, 12:26 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
Links to your study, please. It's not the one from Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research (2013), I hope.

https://www.thealternativedaily.com/...rossfit-study/

...After an investigation, the NCSA retracted the original data and issued accurate findings in the October issue of the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research. Their erratum states, “After the article was published, 10 of the 11 participants who did not complete the study have provided their reasons for not finishing, with only 2 mentioning injury or health conditions that prevented them from completing follow-up testing.”...

No Kool Aid drinking here. Sorry to disappoint.

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full...25967114531177
...A total of 486 CrossFit participants completed the survey, and 386 met the inclusion criteria. The overall injury rate was determined to be 19.4%...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28085123
...CONCLUSIONS:
The injury incidence rate associated with CrossFit training was low, and comparable to other forms of recreational fitness activities. Previous injury and gender were identified as risk factors for injury, whilst the role of movement competency in this setting warrants further investigation
...
(emphasis mine)


https://www.realclearscience.com/blo..._kill_you.html
..."Injury rates with CrossFit training are similar to that reported in the literature for sports such as Olympic weight-lifting, power-lifting and gymnastics and lower than competitive contact sports such as rugby union and rugby league," the researchers reported.

And that rate is positively puny compared to sports like soccer, skiing, and football. Even running may be more dangerous. A 2010 study followed recreational runners for eight weeks as they trained for a 4-mile race. 30.1 injuries were reported for every 1,000 hours of running
...
(emphasis mine)



You were saying?
Did you even read these pieces you posted thoroughly?

The fact remains using your numbers 80+ people out of over 100 sustain an injury! They only retracted it since they were being threatened with a lawsuit and that 2013 NCBI piece was a political piece while litigation was being approached! The basis is fundamentally skewed from the start! Frankly it's a complete laughing stock and shows while a lot of what NCBI releases needs to be taken with a grain of salt! It's basically the Wikipedia for science!

Then to see 20% out of 486 sustained injury! Really, this is your support? That's 100 people basically that actually were willing to say they were injured, not counting the ego driven folks that touched through it!

Then your last article, hilarious! No crap aggressive lateral motion such as football, basketball, and soccer will sustain greater injury! We're also comparing Apple's to oranges!

Please enlighten me, what plane of motion are we talking about again?......


I'll let the fact C.F. has been dying for the past 2yrs speak for itself!

Last edited by Performancedieselpros; 03-08-2018 at 12:51 PM.
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      03-08-2018, 12:31 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Mr Carrots View Post
Genetics really are everything in any strength sport, and especially bbing.

I never bothered competing in PLing because a 1800+ total might make you the strongest guy in almost any gym but it's nothing when you're up against guys who benched 405 back in high school and can raw squat 800.

Its even more depressing in bbing, I've seen someone train for 6 months and win the overall at the NPC show in LA, then immediately quit and go back to looking like they never touched a weight lol
Amen!

I mean Ray Williams just did a record 1069lb back squat this past weekend at the Arnold Expo which is nuts!!!

Body building is such a sport of illusion. This was a 6 month transformation I did on a client, he quit lifting because of his work load, and all went to shift after the pick was taken!
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      03-08-2018, 12:59 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Performancedieselpros View Post
Did you even read these pieces you posted thoroughly?

The fact remains using your numbers 80+ people out of over 100 sustain an injury! They only retracted it since they were being threatened with a lawsuit and that 2013 NCBI piece was a political piece while litigation was being approached! The basis is fundamentally skewed from the start! Frankly it's a complete laughing stock and shows while a lot of what NCBI releases needs to be taken with a grain of salt! It's basically the Wikipedia for science!

Then to see 20% out of 486 sustained injury! Really, this is your support? That's 100 people basically that actually were willing to say they were injured, not counting the ego driven folks that touched through it!

Then your last article, hilarious! No crap aggressive lateral motion such as football, basketball, and soccer will sustain greater injury! We're also comparing Apple's to oranges!

Please enlighten me, what plane of motion are we talking about again?......


I'll let the fact C.F. has been dying for the past 2yrs speak for itself!

Yes, of course I did.

They retracted it because it was a BS study that was intentionally skewed. Which is also, not surprisingly, why they got sued.

The data shows that CrossFit isn't any more dangerous than other Olympic lifting or power lifting or gymnastic endeavors. Duh, CrossFit steals heavily from Olympic lifting, gymnastics and other barbell related fitness.

Further 20% is MILES away from your original assertion of, what was it again? Oh, yeah, 90%.

The comparison to soccer, football and the like is that no one in here is railing against playing in flag football or soccer leagues, but some folks act like CrossFit is the worst thing you can do.

Keep moving those goal posts, though. You've been wrong about everything you've posted here - except for your opinion that you don't like CrossFit. I eagerly await your peer reviewed study that backs up your 90%, and now ~80%, injury rate claims.

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      03-08-2018, 01:15 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Carrots View Post
Genetics really are everything in any strength sport, and especially bbing.

I never bothered competing in PLing because a 1800+ total might make you the strongest guy in almost any gym but it's nothing when you're up against guys who benched 405 back in high school and can raw squat 800.

Its even more depressing in bbing, I've seen someone train for 6 months and win the overall at the NPC show in LA, then immediately quit and go back to looking like they never touched a weight lol
There is a lot of truth to this. One of my favorite training videos is out of a olmypic weightlifting gym in CA called Cal Strength. One of their newer lifters was watching Donny Shankle (aka the lion killer) moving shit tons of weight and he asks the coach “How do I lift like Donny?”. To which the coach replies “go back, pick a stronger dad, and a stronger mom”.
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      03-08-2018, 01:21 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
Yes, of course I did.

They retracted it because it was a BS study that was intentionally skewed. Which is also, not surprisingly, why they got sued.

The data shows that CrossFit isn't any more dangerous than other Olympic lifting or power lifting or gymnastic endeavors. Duh, CrossFit steals heavily from Olympic lifting, gymnastics and other barbell related fitness.

Further 20% is MILES away from your original assertion of, what was it again? Oh, yeah, 90%.

The comparison to soccer, football and the like is that no one in here is railing against playing in flag football or soccer leagues, but some folks act like CrossFit is the worst thing you can do.

Keep moving those goal posts, though. You've been wrong about everything you've posted here - except for your opinion that you don't like CrossFit. I eagerly await your peer reviewed study that backs up your 90%, and now ~80%, injury rate claims.

I tell you what..... your caught on the 90% #, and I presented that as sarcasm! Fact remains injury rate is too high, and it's developed the stereotype for a reason... it's true!

The NCSA had zero skin in the game or reason to skew the data, nor was it worth wasting money to litigate. After all C.F. was willing to shell out $$$$$$ to protect their appearance as a fun fitness environment which they present incredibly well on the social scope! They're a business, unlike the other which is an organization of true athletic specialists....

I can appreciate your passion for CF, yet I can assure you the % of occurances of injury is highly unacceptable amongst the RESPECTED FITNESS COMMUNITY. This is not to degrade the effort placed by individuals, or the goals, rather it's a reflection of poor structures and understanding of contradictions in basic motion. When was the last time we actually saw Greg Glassman do anything except talk in front of a white board with a dry erase marker? His jobs to sell!

But please please please don't compare C.F. and it's slice and dice approach to strict power lifting, Olympic lifting, or gymnastics..... its a blatant insult to guys like Eddie Hall or Bryan Shaw that master skills, mind muscle connection, form, plus they don't spend excessive time performing GHD crunches throwing their core out of alignment.

That's like comparing ice skating to hockey! Which might I add hockey still is the most talent required sport for multiple reasons, and I don't even live in a state with ice or snow!
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      03-08-2018, 01:25 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by DonaldPump View Post
There is a lot of truth to this. One of my favorite training videos is out of a olmypic weightlifting gym in CA called Cal Strength. One of their newer lifters was watching Donny Shankle (aka the lion killer) moving shit tons of weight and he asks the coach “How do I lift like Donny?”. To which the coach replies “go back, pick a stronger dad, and a stronger mom”.
That's awesome!

Good friend of mine when I was younger was BLACK as can be and would overhead press 315 like it was 135. I said Bernard what'd you do besides football when you were in school, he says "I just thank your white ancestors for picking the 2 biggest nigg@s in the field and hooking them up"..... I died laughing and how true it was.

Hopefully nobody was offended, I'm just relaying what was said by a BLACK friend lol!
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      03-08-2018, 01:41 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Performancedieselpros View Post
I tell you what..... your caught on the 90% #, and I presented that as sarcasm! Fact remains injury rate is too high, and it's developed the stereotype for a reason... it's true!

The NCSA had zero skin in the game or reason to skew the data, nor was it worth wasting money to litigate. After all C.F. was willing to shell out $$$$$$ to protect their appearance as a fun fitness environment which they present incredibly well on the social scope! They're a business, unlike the other which is an organization of true athletic specialists....

I can appreciate your passion for CF, yet I can assure you the % of occurances of injury is highly unacceptable amongst the RESPECTED FITNESS COMMUNITY. This is not to degrade the effort placed by individuals, or the goals, rather it's a reflection of poor structures and understanding of contradictions in basic motion. When was the last time we actually saw Greg Glassman do anything except talk in front of a white board with a dry erase marker? His jobs to sell!

But please please please don't compare C.F. and it's slice and dice approach to strict power lifting, Olympic lifting, or gymnastics..... its a blatant insult to guys like Eddie Hall or Bryan Shaw that master skills, mind muscle connection, form, plus they don't spend excessive time performing GHD crunches throwing their core out of alignment.

That's like comparing ice skating to hockey! Which might I add hockey still is the most talent required sport for multiple reasons, and I don't even live in a state with ice or snow!

So, the 90% and then, 75% injury rate numbers you threw out there were completely false, you now admit. You realize that was the entire intent of my original post, right? You could have copped to it in the first place, but instead you doubled-down and cited a "study" that was retracted because of the level of bullshit contained in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by performancedieselpros
Congrats on doing C.F. since 09', 90% of the people that have stepped foot in a C.F. gym sustain injury.
Quote:
Originally Posted by performancedieselpros
..... when a test pool of 112 conditioned applicants in a 8 week period of time results in more than 75% sustaining limiting injury that's a problem in program design!

Only after being clearly shown to be talking out of your ass do you finally admit to it. Why?

I don't give two shits if you, or anyone else, do CrossFit or hate CrossFit. It's simply not that big of a deal - my last name isn't Glassman or Castro.

Again, there's no need to make asinine claims about why CrossFit is bad - there are plenty of legit reasons to criticize it. Maybe injury rate is one, but don't go overinflating numbers to help bolster a weak (pun intended) argument. You lose credibility.
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      03-08-2018, 01:48 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by DonaldPump View Post
There is a lot of truth to this. One of my favorite training videos is out of a olmypic weightlifting gym in CA called Cal Strength. One of their newer lifters was watching Donny Shankle (aka the lion killer) moving shit tons of weight and he asks the coach “How do I lift like Donny?”. To which the coach replies “go back, pick a stronger dad, and a stronger mom”.
I like CalStrength - Donny and Jon North both used to train at MuscleDriver USA which was about 10 mins from my house before it went under. Caleb Ward taught oly classes at my old CrossFit gym, in fact.

They (CalStrength) aren't still advocating for hip cleans, are they?
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      03-08-2018, 01:57 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
So, the 90% and then, 75% injury rate numbers you threw out there were completely false, you now admit. You realize that was the entire intent of my original post, right? You could have copped to it in the first place, but instead you doubled-down and cited a "study" that was retracted because of the level of bullshit contained in it.






Only after being clearly shown to be talking out of your ass do you finally admit to it. Why?

I don't give two shits if you, or anyone else, do CrossFit or hate CrossFit. It's simply not that big of a deal - my last name isn't Glassman or Castro.

Again, there's no need to make asinine claims about why CrossFit is bad - there are plenty of legit reasons to criticize it. Maybe injury rate is one, but don't go overinflating numbers to help bolster a weak (pun intended) argument. You lose credibility.
Lmao!

Really?!

I need to go buy one of those give a phuck keyboards with the sarcasm buttons on it!

You've clearly avoided the facts at hand, and that's ok being your likely in California....

Just keep tossing sandbags over your shoulder buddy, it's probably the most injury preventative exercise CF does.... if it's even really deemed an exercise!

Loosen up your knee wraps, back brace, and all the other accesorie straps CF relies on these days, clearly it's clouding your ability to see the facts!
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      03-08-2018, 01:59 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Performancedieselpros View Post
Lmao!

Really?!

I need to go buy one of those give a phuck keyboards with the sarcasm buttons on it!

Just keep tossing sandbags over your shoulder buddy, it's probably the most injury preventative exercise CF does.... if it's even really deemed an exercise!

Loosen up your knee wraps, back brace, and all the other accesorie straps CF relies on these days, clearly it's clouding your ability to see the facts!
The fact that you made shit up, or other facts? Help straighten me out. I love to learn.
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      03-08-2018, 02:02 PM   #60
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The fact that you made shit up, or other facts? Help straighten me out. I love to learn.
The fact you are so fanboy, you lack basic comprehension of clear data!

Nothing your Paleo diet can't fix for ya!
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      03-08-2018, 02:25 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
I like CalStrength - Donny and Jon North both used to train at MuscleDriver USA which was about 10 mins from my house before it went under. Caleb Ward taught oly classes at my old CrossFit gym, in fact.

They (CalStrength) aren't still advocating for hip cleans, are they?
The old school cal strength videos with Jon and Donny was my first experience into the world of strength and conditioning. I had previously been strictly bodybuilding but this was a whole different game.

Once Donny stepped down from competitive weightlifting and Jon left I stopped watching, so I'm not sure what they're training looks like nowadays.

As of recent, I have been enjoying following Travis Mash and his athletes.
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      03-08-2018, 02:33 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Performancedieselpros View Post
The fact you are so fanboy, you lack basic comprehension of clear data!

Nothing your Paleo diet can't fix for ya!
Not a fanboy. I readily admit - and did so even before you entered our little discussion, that there are lots of things wrong with CF. The fact that you only need an L1 cert to open a gym being at the top of the list.

What facts am I missing. I'm all ears.

Also, I don't do paleo. Keep flailing away, though. It is entertaining.
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      03-08-2018, 02:35 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by DonaldPump View Post
The old school cal strength videos with Jon and Donny was my first experience into the world of strength and conditioning. I had previously been strictly bodybuilding but this was a whole different game.

Once Donny stepped down from competitive weightlifting and Jon left I stopped watching, so I'm not sure what they're training looks like nowadays.

As of recent, I have been enjoying following Travis Mash and his athletes.
Squat every damned day.




CalStrength was teaching hip cleans back when Jon was still there. I hope they left it behind - no competitive Oly team in the world does cleans that way.
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      03-08-2018, 02:58 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
Not a fanboy. I readily admit - and did so even before you entered our little discussion, that there are lots of things wrong with CF. The fact that you only need an L1 cert to open a gym being at the top of the list.

What facts am I missing. I'm all ears.

Also, I don't do paleo. Keep flailing away, though. It is entertaining.
I'm not going to run around in circles with you. My points been made for awhile now, but you and your bretheran of the kettlebell see through a much different lenses in the world!
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      03-08-2018, 03:04 PM   #65
hooligan_clt
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I'm not going to run around in circles with you. My points been made for awhile now, but you and your bretheran of the kettlebell see through a much different lenses in the world!
The fact that you think you've actually made a point is hilarious.

We get it, CrossFit has too high an injury rate in your opinion. That's fine. You simply should have started from that position in the first place.
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      03-08-2018, 03:17 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
The fact that you think you've actually made a point is hilarious.

We get it, CrossFit has too high an injury rate in your opinion. That's fine. You simply should have started from that position in the first place.
Lmfao!

Guy! That's not my opinion, that's a statement of recognition on a global scale!

Like me saying it's easier for a 7-8k lb diesel truck to run a 10sec pass than most BMWS.... not an opinion, that's fact!
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