frustrating tire changes

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by chris719

While I'm sure there is no practical issue, this isn't good practice. It definitely doesn't allow you to put a proper torque easily, because it's a lubricant. You are now overtorquing the fastener if you use a wrench at the same set-point. It's unnecessary, and while it won't bite you on something as dumb as wheel hardware, it's the same bad logic that people use when lubricating spark plug threads despite the mfg specifying a dry application. It's unnecessary and you're now probably +20% past torque spec, just like the people saying to use anti-seize. At least it's less messy.

On clean new threads, I'd agree with you. I've never, ever, done this on clean new threads. It's intended for rusty or already warn/scuffed/galled old threads where proper torque is impossible to achieve (without starting over with all new hardware anyway).

If lube becomes a consideration because the threads are F'd or were clearly too tight last time, you probably won't be getting factory spec fastener tension (which is a product of torque and surface friction) on them ever again anyway. The threads will drag and gall and likely register rated torque long before proper fastener tension is achieved. The tension is important, not just torque.

While on the subject, don't use an air wrench to put them back on, use a torque wrench. I've had lugs come back from a reputable tire shop that were at least 200% over torqued. I had to stand on the end of a 2' breaker bar to get them off an hour after I got home to properly rotate them after a flat repair. In retrospect, I never saw a torque wrench used at that tire shop.

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

On clean new threads, I'd agree with you. I've never, ever, done this on clean new threads. It's intended for rusty or already warn/scuffed/galled old threads where proper torque is impossible to achieve (without starting over with all new hardware anyway).

While on the subject, don't use an air wrench to put them back on, use a torque wrench. I've had lugs come back from a reputable tire shop that were at least 200% over torqued. I had to stand on the end of a 2' breaker bar to get them off an hour after I got home to properly rotate them after a flat repair. In retrospect, I never saw a torque wrench used at that tire shop.

And you rarely will. They gun and go. They give zero fucks about your precious torque. Lol. They are definitely over torquing.

[tranquility]

Thanks for all the new posts. I'll try to answer as best as I can:

I don't think that I need a new impact wrench. Mine does the job fine twice every year. It is only when some idiot overtightened that I run into this prb. No matter what electric wrench I get, an air gun will always be>>>>>>>>>>>> so if some fool at the shop doesn't care and overtightens, I'm screwed anyway. (I live in a condo but even if I had my own garage I'm not gonna bother w getting an air gun, that's way overkill for me.)

My wrench is rated at 350lb-ft for tightening and loosening. Like I said, I never had any prbs save for when above happens.

I appreciate the advice on anti-seize but I think that's why subconsciously I never used it. I adhere to the KISS principle, so if I can do it w less stuff and complication, I will. As this thread developed, I realized that I didn't do anything wrong really (save for forgetting to remind those guys when they did my rear brake job). I need to be damn vigilant and remind those guys whenever the wheel comes off. Sigh, what a pita, I forget this one time so they told the Hulk to tighten my rear wheels.

I do have a drill w industrial scrubber attachments, so tx to the guy(s) who reminded me to use that: I will add that to my tire changing regime.

I dunno what else needs to be said now cuz I think I will need to find a professional on Monday and hopefully this will be the LAST time. As long as I remember to tell those careless ppl about my tq setting, I *should* be ok from now on. Lesson learned. Tx again guys, you are pros.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Sure enough, the right front had three lug nuts rattling around in the big 'ole metal hubcap. I guess the tech forgot to torque down 3 of the lugs at least.

The last oil change/tire rotation I got at Honda on the RDX left me with 2 lug nuts on my driver's side rear that were under-torqued. I fixed the issue and called them to let them know, but no harm, no foul (until someone gets hurt).

[chris719]

Originally Posted by G MONEY

And you rarely will. They gun and go. They give zero fucks about your precious torque. Lol. They are definitely over torquing.

They do, which is another reason why I don’t recommend lubricating threads. If you do it on your own, better make sure you never take it to a shop or dealer and they have to remove the wheel. It’ll be even harder to get off.

[eluded]

Always use the air wrench for the final tightening.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by tranquility

My impact wrench plugs into a wall and apparently maxes at 350lb-ft...they couldn't have possibly tightened over that, right? I'm confused unless my wrench's specs are wrong, how the hell can 350lb-ft of power from my wrench not be enough to remove those bolts?

I just did an impact wrench for the firs time changing out my wheels to winter on 2 cars. I got a 600lb-ft wrench, but that wasn't enough. Granted, my 20" wheels have giant lugnuts, but it was comically underpowered. I took it back and for $20 more, the next step up was about twice as powerful, 1150. That did it. Even when putting the lugnuts back, it would be hard to over-tighten unless you just stood there and went way too long, but always check with a manual wrench.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by RM7

I just did an impact wrench for the firs time changing out my wheels to winter on 2 cars. I got a 600lb-ft wrench, but that wasn't enough. Granted, my 20" wheels have giant lugnuts, but it was comically underpowered. I took it back and for $20 more, the next step up was about twice as powerful, 1150. That did it. Even when putting the lugnuts back, it would be hard to over-tighten unless you just stood there and went way too long, but always check with a manual wrench.

Tx, I apparently have a unicorn impact wrench w digital setting, so it won't overtighten. Unfortunately, it can't overcome what the dudes did at the shop w their crazy air guns.

[zx10guy]

I've never had issues knocking loose lug nuts/bolts. I still use air tools and have the air pressure dialed all the way up to the max at 150 PSI. Don't use anti-seize on any of the lug nuts/bolts. I tighten down to the lowest power setting on my impact and then follow up with a torque wrench to tighten to spec.

Have to say, I did bring my Toyota daily to Walmart for them to mount and balance tires I bought from Tire Rack. Was surprised they paid close attention to what they were doing with putting the tire/wheels back on the car. Watched them the entire time. Aside from them putting anti-seize on the wheel studs, they tightened down the lug nuts and then finished the tightening with a torque wrench. They even followed the proper torque sequence.

[ShocknAwe]

Yep I always take my wheels directly to the shop with my other car.

Last time I tookt hem off for a DIY job they were torqued so excessively I thought I would have to replace the hubs. Put a 3' cheater bar on my breaker and snapped my socket extender. Learned my lesson forever.

Also helps to put antiseize on the hub bore, prevents them getting stuck if you don't touch them for a a while. Key here is the hub face/lip but not the lugs or threads.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

Also helps to put antiseize on the hub bore, prevents them getting stuck if you don't touch them for a a while. Key here is the hub face/lip but not the lugs or threads.

You should not apply anti-seize on the hub or wheel mounting faces. You need friction here. The hub lip is the only acceptable place for anti-seize. Honestly, I don't understand why people put this shit on everything. It's messy as hell and you won't have a problem anyway. If manufacturers wanted anti-seize everywhere they would be recommending it.

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by chris719

You should not apply anti-seize on the hub or wheel mounting faces. You need friction here. The hub lip is the only acceptable place for anti-seize. Honestly, I don't understand why people put this shit on everything. It's messy as hell and you won't have a problem anyway. If manufacturers wanted anti-seize everywhere they would be recommending it.

Friction for what purpose? BMW wheels are hub-centric and the bolts hold the wheel in place. I usually put anti-seize around the entire hub-centric contact surface. As a BMW owner of over 50-years with some cars at least that old, I consider myself somewhat of an expert as to where things will get stuck! I also never use the parking brake on anything in storage for the same reason. And never start a stored vehicle in-gear before seeing if the clutch plate is stuck to the flywheel. I nearly rocketed through a garage door on an old motorcycle before learning this.

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by chris719

You should not apply anti-seize on the hub or wheel mounting faces. You need friction here. The hub lip is the only acceptable place for anti-seize. Honestly, I don't understand why people put this shit on everything. It's messy as hell and you won't have a problem anyway. If manufacturers wanted anti-seize everywhere they would be recommending it.

It is a surface that rusts causing alloy bonding and a smear thin coat will not hurt you. Doesn't need to be applied by the fist-full or with a spatula y'know. Don't be so dramatic.

[3798j]

Nowhere is there a recommendation for putting anything on lug nuts/wheel bolts/wheel studs. Everywhere it is recommended threads should be clean and dry.
Example:.https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiret...jsp?techid=107
"Ensure the stud or bolt threads are clean and dry with no oil, grease or any other kind of lubrication applied to the wheel's hardware."
"Note: It is important NOT to lubricate hardware threads or seats. The friction torque is measured against should come from the hardware seats. Lubricating hardware threads and seats alters the friction generated at the lug seat, which could result in inaccurate torque application."

[chris719]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

Friction for what purpose? BMW wheels are hub-centric and the bolts hold the wheel in place. I usually put anti-seize around the entire hub-centric contact surface. As a BMW owner of over 50-years with some cars at least that old, I consider myself somewhat of an expert as to where things will get stuck! I also never use the parking brake on anything in storage for the same reason. And never start a stored vehicle in-gear before seeing if the clutch plate is stuck to the flywheel. I nearly rocketed through a garage door on an old motorcycle before learning this.

The wheel/hat (hub) interface derives its shear resistance from the friction between the two clamped surfaces. Perhaps it is not a practical issue in passenger cars, but I don't think it's theoretically a good idea. There is no need for it on the face of the wheel interface on a BMW. They rust together 99% of the time at the lip.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

There are 5ea., 12MM, grade 10.9 wheel bolts holding the wheel to the hub. Lube or no lube, the possibility of a bolt shearing is litteraly zero.

I agree, but it just feels wrong to grease that surface IMO. People also tend to use too much and it can squeeze out etc.

[tranquility]

I think this is right but just in case:
so the door jamb tire pressure label says 36psi front and 42 rear, but that's was for my staggered 225/255 set...now that my winters are a square set, I assume that the psi is the same throughout @36psi? What takes precedence, I always thought it depends on the tire size?

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by tranquility

I think this is right but just in case:
so the door jamb tire pressure label says 36psi front and 42 rear, but that's was for my staggered 225/255 set...now that my winters are a square set, I assume that the psi is the same throughout @36psi? What takes precedence, I always thought it depends on the tire size?

Tire size does play a big role, has to do with contact patch size & shape. Are the winters the same 225 width?

[________]

Agree on anti-seize on the rotor hat surface/hub lip where the wheel mounts. Sometimes it’s the only way to remove the wheel after a few seasons.
Against anti-seize on the bolts. You don’t want these backing out.

Also on the camp of “which friction does the rotor need with the wheel” with 5 bolts tightened with 120Nm…

[________]

Originally Posted by tranquility

I think this is right but just in case:
so the door jamb tire pressure label says 36psi front and 42 rear, but that's was for my staggered 225/255 set...now that my winters are a square set, I assume that the psi is the same throughout @36psi? What takes precedence, I always thought it depends on the tire size?

42 is just for 160km/h+ with 4 people and load, correct?

I believe so, if I remember.
These pressures are set based on a number of factors, load being the biggest one, but also traction and temperature.

You’re totally safe with 36 all around, that’s what I do (I’m staggered).

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Tire size does play a big role, has to do with contact patch size & shape. Are the winters the same 225 width?

My winters is a square set so all of them are 225.

Originally Posted by Onesie

42 is just for 160km/h+ with 4 people and load, correct?

I believe so, if I remember.
These pressures are set based on a number of factors, load being the biggest one, but also traction and temperature.

You’re totally safe with 36 all around, that’s what I do (I’m staggered).

All I know is my summers are fine as I stated in my previous post. I'm just a wee bit confused about winters but believe it *should* all be 36 psi since all the tires are the same 225 size.

Confused about your last para, you're staggered but have the same psi? That shouldn't be right, no?

[StanDiego]

Originally Posted by tranquility

I think this is right but just in case:
so the door jamb tire pressure label says 36psi front and 42 rear, but that's was for my staggered 225/255 set...now that my winters are a square set, I assume that the psi is the same throughout @36psi?

Not necessarily. Note the highlighted section below for a square set of 18' winter tires. I don't know why it's higher in the rear for the s30i but not the M40i but this is from the owners manual: