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      05-19-2020, 08:36 AM   #23
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      05-19-2020, 08:52 AM   #24
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      05-19-2020, 09:12 AM   #25
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Also a 5.0L Coyote for me. Not huge by any means, but I loved it. Nice little 302. Good torque, high end power and THE SOUND!! Perhaps I'll go bigger when Euro adventure is over.
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      05-19-2020, 09:22 AM   #26
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My Lexus. I'm a Sports Car guy at heart, as opposed to a Muscle Car guy, so the big, heavy V8's never did anything for me.

RX-7 - 1.1
MR-2 - 1.6
Starion - 2.6 T
Miata - 1.8
S2000 - 2.0
STi - 2.5 T
Exige - 1.8
IS350 - 3.5
M2 - 3.0 T
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      05-19-2020, 09:27 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F30lolz View Post
2001 BMW 4.9i aka a M5.
Me too.
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      05-19-2020, 10:15 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
My Lexus. I'm a Sports Car guy at heart, as opposed to a Muscle Car guy, so the big, heavy V8's never did anything for me.

RX-7 - 1.1
MR-2 - 1.6
Starion - 2.6 T
Miata - 1.8
S2000 - 2.0
STi - 2.5 T
Exige - 1.8
IS350 - 3.5
M2 - 3.0 T
Interesting list, and view point. What struck me though is that that Mustang I posted above destroyed most of the list you posted at the road courses. With 2 exceptions that is:
1) Exige - I've come across a few of the Lotus cars and never got past one
2) M2 - never seen one at one of my tack days while owning the Mustang. I think it would be close though. With the suspension mods i had on the 'Stang I'm really not sure which would come out on top. I goten plenty of M3s though. Both E9x and F80 flavors.

So my point is this: The line between Muscle Car and Sports car may not be as clear as you think. I never really considered my Mustang a muscle car. It was just way too good at corners. And there are days now owning an M2 where I miss it.
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      05-19-2020, 10:21 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Interesting list, and view point. What struck me though is that that Mustang I posted above destroyed most of the list you posted at the road courses.
You're mixing apples and oranges.

First, I didn't mention anything about race cars, which are what are driven on road-courses.

Here, let me help.

Sports Car - street car with emphasis on fun, light weight, and handling
Muscle Car - street car with emphasis on power, drag racing on the street, or the strip
GT (Grand Touring) Car - street car with emphasis on giving the best of both previous worlds

Beyond that, you're comparing a newer Mustang to an old RX-7? An old MR-2? An old Miata? And on a road-course?

Mustang's were, at best clunky junk until very recently, and not nearly as fun to drive as the cars I have mentioned, and year for year would get their asses handed to them in that regard.
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      05-19-2020, 10:23 AM   #30
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      05-19-2020, 10:52 AM   #31
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      05-19-2020, 11:01 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
You're mixing apples and oranges.

First, I didn't mention anything about race cars, which are what are driven on road-courses.

Here, let me help.

Sports Car - street car with emphasis on fun, light weight, and handling
Muscle Car - street car with emphasis on power, drag racing on the street, or the strip
GT (Grand Touring) Car - street car with emphasis on giving the best of both previous worlds

Beyond that, you're comparing a newer Mustang to an old RX-7? An old MR-2? An old Miata? And on a road-course?

Mustang's were, at best clunky junk until very recently, and not nearly as fun to drive as the cars I have mentioned, and year for year would get their asses handed to them in that regard.
I have a 2SS 1LE, it is definitely not a street car with emphasis on drag racing. It's an emphasis on road-course track racing and handling. While people may drag race 1LEs, PP2s, GT350s, ZLEs, they are intended to put down road course track times and carving up curvy roads is what they excel at.

I also don't agree that a GT car emphasizes those two criteria. If anything, it's a more comfortable version of a track car, not necessarily trying to blend a muscle car with a track car. GT cars were being made in Europe with no connection to drag racing.

For those able to look past the bottom line or basic versions (like comparing a 320 to an M3), the line has been blurred and these are no longer the horrible cars from 30 years ago that had no hope of ever meeting a decent car on a road course. They've been able to churn out some world class chassis and cars capable of beating the mainstays.
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      05-19-2020, 11:31 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
You're mixing apples and oranges.

First, I didn't mention anything about race cars, which are what are driven on road-courses.

Here, let me help.

Sports Car - street car with emphasis on fun, light weight, and handling
Muscle Car - street car with emphasis on power, drag racing on the street, or the strip
GT (Grand Touring) Car - street car with emphasis on giving the best of both previous worlds

Beyond that, you're comparing a newer Mustang to an old RX-7? An old MR-2? An old Miata? And on a road-course?

Mustang's were, at best clunky junk until very recently, and not nearly as fun to drive as the cars I have mentioned, and year for year would get their asses handed to them in that regard.
So I was trying to be gentle with you and use velvet gloves so that you don't get your panties in a bunch, but here we are anyway. Soooo ... Let me help you....

1) You're wrong. Race cars can not be driven on the street. Cars which go on a racetrack are more often than not street legal. Ever heard of HPDE? And there is something called a double-duty car, which can be driven on the street, and on the race track too! Mind-blown, right??

You follow me? Or do I need to slow down for you?


This brings me to my second point.

2) What do you consider an E9X M3? Muscle Car? Sports Car? Or GT Car?Based on your limited understanding of cars that is.

Here is 2011 "Clunky junk" as you put it matching an equal vintage M3 on a road course.



3) I know you're buthurt because one of the BMW icons of the era is matched by an American car half it's price, but all of it's performance. But that's life. It hurts.

and

4) My POS Mustang has defeated most of you list at the track with no issues. Oh, and if they tried to drag race, it would likely also go my way. And it did so with a baby seat in the back!

So I leave you with a bag of wieners, Sir. You know what to do with it.
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      05-19-2020, 11:43 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
So I was trying to be gentle with you and use velvet gloves so that you don't get your panties in a bunch, but here we are anyway. Soooo ... Let me help you....

1) You're wrong. Race cars can not be driven on the street. Cars which go on a racetrack are more often than not street legal. Ever hears of HPDE? And there is something called a double-duty car, which can be driven on the street, and on the race track too! Mind-blown, right??

You follow me? Or do I need to slow down for you?


This brings me to my second point.

2) What do you consider an E9X M3? Muscle Car? Sports Car? Or GT Car?Based on your limited understanding of cars that is.

Here is 2011 "Clunky junk" as you put it matching an equal vintage M3 on a road course.



3) I know you're buthurt because one of the BMW icons of the era is matched by an American car half it's price, but all of it's performance. But that's life. It hurts.

and

4) My POS Mustang has defeated most of you list at the track with no issues. Oh, and if they tried to drag race, it would likely also go my way. And it did so with a baby seat in the back!

So I leave you with a bag of wieners, Sir. You know what to do with it.
Lol!!
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      05-19-2020, 11:48 AM   #35
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Where does a corvette fit into that equation?


Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
Here, let me help.

Sports Car - street car with emphasis on fun, light weight, and handling
Muscle Car - street car with emphasis on power, drag racing on the street, or the strip
GT (Grand Touring) Car - street car with emphasis on giving the best of both previous worlds
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      05-19-2020, 11:49 AM   #36
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      05-19-2020, 12:16 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
So I leave you with a bag of wieners, Sir. You know what to do with it.
Reading comprehension > You



Quote:
Originally Posted by tim99ws6 View Post
Where does a corvette fit into that equation?
The Corvette is a GT Car, as it has always tried to give people the best of both handling, and power, which makes it a GT Car by design. Also, by the strictest definition, Sports Cars must be manual, and have an open top of some sort.
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      05-19-2020, 12:17 PM   #38
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      05-19-2020, 12:21 PM   #39
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      05-19-2020, 12:26 PM   #40
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Reading comprehension > You
Glad to see an intellectual, automotive fact based comeback to the epistemological conundrum you have created
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      05-19-2020, 12:30 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
I have a 2SS 1LE, it is definitely not a street car with emphasis on drag racing.
Put the brakes on James, your 2SS is a GT Car by definition.

And before anyone else cries about my definitions, they are the oldest I could find when researching at the tender age of 12, but they make a lot of sense.

The original Sports Cars had a theme, and that theme was fun. To accomplish this, the Brit's made it feel good by giving it light weight, a manual trans, a radio, and some sort of open top, with NO THOUGHT to displacement. The idea was tossability, and fun while it was happening. Not a very V8 thing...

The classic Muscle Cars were just the opposite; coupe's with emphasis on power, and automatic transmissions to put that power down. There was never any thought given to an open top, or a fun twisty ride in the sun, but more a visit to the local dragstrip on Friday night. And beyond that, ease of modification with the express intent to make them quicker in a straight line is part of their DNA.

The GT Car was literally created to blur the lines, to try to have your cake and eat it too. Nowdays EVERYTHING is a damn GT Car if you don't research the old definitions of what a car was about.

ANYTHING can be a race car, you just have to purpose build it to race.

The perfect example of a Sports Car is probably a Miata.
The perfect example of a Muscle Car is probably a Hellcat.
The perfect example of a GT Car is probably an M3.

The Exige, Demon, and cars of this sort, which are really thinly-disguised race cars for the road, don't really fit into any category nicely.
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      05-19-2020, 12:31 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Glad to see an intellectual, automotive fact based comeback to the epistemological conundrum you have created
Read my last comment, I had already started typing it when you wrote your book.
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      05-19-2020, 01:22 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
Put the brakes on James, your 2SS is a GT Car by definition.
Actually, the 2SS and 1SS 1LE versions weighs within 6lbs of each other, because the 1SS has all of the wiring and features in the seats, etc. that the 2SS has, just not the wiring harness to hook it all up, so compared to the 1SS version...it's "just as hard". The 1LE versions are a lot more track focused than something like an M3. Although the M3 does just fine at the track, the 1LE takes steering, suspension/drivetrain (eLSD), tires, etc., all to fairly extreme extents.

Sure, we aren't talking a race-only car that's not legal on street roads, but in my mind, a light weight low-HP car designed to handle is just as much a sports-car as a high-HP car that's designed to handle. A GT car is meant to give some compromise for comfort, trading that for all-out performance.

The idea that a "sports car" has to be an MG or Triumph is pretty tired IMO. Sports car is a pretty big definition IMO and it gets further divided up into categories. Once you get down to something like "muscle car", that's pretty much something intended to only be raced in a straight line. You can always blur the lines though, lots of cars do cross over multiple genre.
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      05-19-2020, 02:07 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
Put the brakes on James, your 2SS is a GT Car by definition.
Speaking of reading comprehension, how can one put on the brakes, when by definition one don't have any?

But back to the point. 30 year old definitions don't encompass cars of today. That's why an Alfa Guillia (I know, reliability) can outperform an M3, and why SS 1LE is faster than M2/3/4/C63/RS5 and the list goes on. And then there is the Charger Hellcat.

And what you consider a POS Muscle Car these days will wipe the floor with M cars on track.

Definitions evolve for a reason.
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