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      01-20-2021, 12:13 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by chassis View Post
Stein, let’s assume the charging network is there in the future. It will be.

Who wants to buy a car with a shrinking gas tank?
I'm sure in the future range will be much higher, Tesla will likely release a 500 mile battery eventually and Toyota has a possible solid-state battery system that should hopefully produce good results. But that's the future, so things may change or not end up like that, or they could exceed that, but its a wait and see scenario.

For some people I think it works. Majority of people just need transportation for commuting. For example, my wife has an SUV that she uses for commuting and to carry the dog and that I occasionally use for home depot runs. She could easily daily drive a Model Y that say gets an average range of 280 miles. She drives to DC in traffic and has charging at work and would have charging at home, so for her needs at least range anxiety is not likely there, and any trips we do over 300 miles we normally fly, or if we had a Tesla, the availability of chargers would ease any worries as superchargers are the golden standard for charging. Luckily we have accessibility to assist with the lifestyle. Some don't, although I know Elon is trying to change that with public superchargers. My wife could easily adopt to the EV lifestyle, she simply doesn't want a Tesla yet (due to non-EV factors like build quality, interior, etc.).

For others there needs may not fit an EV, but "a smaller gas tank" to fit with the metaphor may work for some. At first they may be reluctant but of course it really depends on how you use your car and your driving habits as well as daily milage and accessibility to charging. With charging every night or few days there is still a good range for most people who do not drive more than 300 miles a week, and if they do, they can just plug in more often. I think EV's are excellent commuter cars, just not for long distance or fun at the moment in which ICE is still king, but who knows what the future holds.
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      01-20-2021, 12:19 PM   #24
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Range anxiety is one thing. This is your point, correct? Letís assume this is adequately addressed in the future. It will be.

The gas tank shrinks over time. Battery range shrinks over time. Thatís how batteries work at present.

Who wants to buy a vehicle that delivers a shrinking amount of transportation utility over time?
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      01-20-2021, 12:29 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chassis View Post
Who wants to buy a vehicle that delivers a shrinking amount of transportation utility over time?
I'm sure few do, but just how real is this shrinkage in real life?

This is not a factor for lessees, which is constitutes a large percentage of vehicle registrations, especially in premium segments.

For those that buy, this is not typically going to be noticeable in the first five years of ownership and possibly longer. Most automakers deliberately limit the useable portion of the battery in order to compensate for cell deterioration over time.

I have personally been driving an EV for close to three years now and have noticed absolutely no loss in range. Not a single bit. And this is a car with circa 2010 battery tech.

There are real challenges when using an EV as a daily driver, but this is not a major one.

When it comes to buying a used EV, this should absolutely be something evaluated at purchase. But, there are dozens of things one should evaluate when purchasing a used vehicle, and with thousands of moving parts in the drivetrain, you are not always going to be able to scrutinize all those when buying an ICE vehicle. It should be relatively easy, on the other hand, to see an electric vehicle's range at full state of charge. So, pick your poison.
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      01-20-2021, 12:30 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chassis View Post
Range anxiety is one thing. This is your point, correct? Let’s assume this is adequately addressed in the future. It will be.

The gas tank shrinks over time. Battery range shrinks over time. That’s how batteries work at present.

Who wants to buy a vehicle that delivers a shrinking amount of transportation utility over time?
Oh you were saying as to long term usability, I thought you just meant less range than a gas tank provides.

While I'm not as knowledgeable in that subject, I do know that some manufacturers have Battery warranties included if a batteries usability were to decrease past 70% of its initial capacity for 8yrs/150k, and I believe that most manufacturers leave a buffer of capacity? But like I said I don't know too much about battery technology to truly answer. This will definitely be an interesting point for those that tend to keep their vehicles long-term or high-milage.

At the moment I'm not sure how batteries will age, that is still to be seen as all these EV's aside from Tesla's are too new to know, but I have seen some high milage Tesla's, but that will be another area in which I guess we will have to hope that the technology prevails and progresses quickly.
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      01-20-2021, 01:24 PM   #27
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The timing is right to replace my wife's Macan, but I optioned one this morning with similar options, and it was $116k.

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      01-20-2021, 01:34 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chassis View Post
Range anxiety is one thing. This is your point, correct? Letís assume this is adequately addressed in the future. It will be.

The gas tank shrinks over time. Battery range shrinks over time. Thatís how batteries work at present.

Who wants to buy a vehicle that delivers a shrinking amount of transportation utility over time?
If I really want a 300 mile range EV and I buy one with 400 miles it's not a big deal. With the S now out for 8 years I don't read a lot of complaints and range and batteries continue to improve.
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      01-20-2021, 01:56 PM   #29
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The media and Tesla fanboys will call this an inferior product and a rip-off.

But these people don't know what they're talking about. Porsche has never been the "value" choice. They don't have the best tech, range, or pricing; but if you actually drive their cars and appreciate world-class engineering then you understand. Porsche knows its customers and that's why they sell every Taycan they produce.
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      01-20-2021, 02:35 PM   #30
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Hopefully the $79k Taycan will mean we will also get a cheaper version of the sister car Audi E-Tron GT with decent specs.
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      01-20-2021, 03:59 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
The media and Tesla fanboys will call this an inferior product and a rip-off.

But these people don't know what they're talking about. Porsche has never been the "value" choice. They don't have the best tech, range, or pricing; but if you actually drive their cars and appreciate world-class engineering then you understand. Porsche knows its customers and that's why they sell every Taycan they produce.
Maybe but much of why I want a Porsche is missing in the EV, the rear drive, rear/mid engine, flat 6 engine and manual transmission in a lightweight sports car. Engine is completely silent, no different than the competitors with an automatic 2 speed and it weighs 5000 lbs?

Pretty hard to not sell every Taycan they have made.

Taycan Turbo S vs. Model S Performance - https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...s-performance/
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      01-20-2021, 04:19 PM   #32
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What I meant to say was FADED away but FATED works just as well.
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      01-20-2021, 05:17 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I'm sure few do, but just how real is this shrinkage in real life?

This is not a factor for lessees, which is constitutes a large percentage of vehicle registrations, especially in premium segments.

For those that buy, this is not typically going to be noticeable in the first five years of ownership and possibly longer. Most automakers deliberately limit the useable portion of the battery in order to compensate for cell deterioration over time.

I have personally been driving an EV for close to three years now and have noticed absolutely no loss in range. Not a single bit. And this is a car with circa 2010 battery tech.

There are real challenges when using an EV as a daily driver, but this is not a major one.

When it comes to buying a used EV, this should absolutely be something evaluated at purchase. But, there are dozens of things one should evaluate when purchasing a used vehicle, and with thousands of moving parts in the drivetrain, you are not always going to be able to scrutinize all those when buying an ICE vehicle. It should be relatively easy, on the other hand, to see an electric vehicle's range at full state of charge. So, pick your poison.
mkoesel thanks for the real world feedback on driving an EV. How many total miles have you owned and driven this vehicle for, and what has been the maximum number of miles driven in a twelve month period?

Regarding Porsche charging more money than other makers - of course they will. Thatís their pricing choice and they have been successful with it so far. Porsche has brand equity that is monetized in the form of purchase price, and a product with performance and quality that lives up to the brand. Itís brilliance in product and marketing.
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      01-20-2021, 06:00 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Maybe but much of why I want a Porsche is missing in the EV, the rear drive, rear/mid engine, flat 6 engine and manual transmission in a lightweight sports car. Engine is completely silent, no different than the competitors with an automatic 2 speed and it weighs 5000 lbs?
Yup I'm not interested in an EV either for those reasons. But regardless the Taycan is for Porsche type of customers. They aren't losing any sleep over techie nerds who were never going to buy any Porsche in the first place because they are "too uncomfortable" or don't have gimmicky features.

I think people are overestimating how many people realistically cross shop Teslas and Porsches. The Taycan's price makes it all the more exclusive; I'm sure that's partly why Porsche priced it much higher than the Model S.
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      01-20-2021, 06:45 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
Yup I'm not interested in an EV either for those reasons. But regardless the Taycan is for Porsche type of customers. They aren't losing any sleep over techie nerds who were never going to buy any Porsche in the first place because they are "too uncomfortable" or don't have gimmicky features.

I think people are overestimating how many people realistically cross shop Teslas and Porsches. The Taycan's price makes it all the more exclusive; I'm sure that's partly why Porsche priced it much higher than the Model S.
Agree. Itís about branding. Which Porsche for sale today is priced comparably against anything else? None of them are.

Tesla is everymanís EV. Toyota and Honda will take share from Tesla one of these days, if EVs become mainstream. To me Tesla is at a brand level similar to Toyota and BMW, possibly also Volvo/Polestar. Tesla is not legitimately competing with MB or Porsche.
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      01-20-2021, 07:10 PM   #36
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I think Porsche is missing a great opportunity to produce a reasonably priced, well equipped ICE compact 4 door sports sedan for the $65K-$70K with mild hybrid, and AWD etc.

They can't compete with Tesla $40K-$50K range and they should never compromise on the fit and finish.

$80K is still a lot for a base RWD electric car with relatively low range. They're putting their eggs in the SUV basket in the Macan. It sells well because a lot of people just want AWD station wagon with a Porsche badge.

But, there are missing gaps between a Macan, Cayenne, Panamera and Taycan.

There is a larger market for people wanting near luxury high performance sedan in the $60K to $70K and putting a Porsche brand would seal the deal. (Myself included)

I can't justify having a $70K weekend toy and I don't want another SUV.
So, my choice would be to look at a Mercedes and a BMW and even an Audi.

Where's the equivalent C300, 330i, and A4-A5 in a Porsche?
No one wants a sports sedan. They want SUVs
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      01-21-2021, 01:23 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Maybe but much of why I want a Porsche is missing in the EV, the rear drive, rear/mid engine, flat 6 engine and manual transmission in a lightweight sports car. Engine is completely silent, no different than the competitors with an automatic 2 speed and it weighs 5000 lbs?

Pretty hard to not sell every Taycan they have made.

Taycan Turbo S vs. Model S Performance - https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...s-performance/

The Taycan is VERY different from competitors. Try driving a turbo one, you will see. I was skeptical and after driving it for 5 minutes I was blown away by it, and I am the last guy on the EV interest list. A Macan with the Taycan Turbo battery would be incredible.
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      01-21-2021, 08:10 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by dgoldenz View Post
The Taycan is VERY different from competitors. Try driving a turbo one, you will see. I was skeptical and after driving it for 5 minutes I was blown away by it, and I am the last guy on the EV interest list. A Macan with the Taycan Turbo battery would be incredible.
Which competitors have you driven and why is the Porsche significantly better than the others?

Also, why are you the last guy on the EV interest list but at the same time say "a Macan with a Taycan Turbo battery would be incredible"? Seems like you are very interested in the right EV.
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      01-21-2021, 09:24 AM   #39
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Maybe I am missing something but why is the TQ so low...

Less TQ than an accord 2.0t? Something doesn't add up here... these are abysmal metrics for a $100k car.
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      01-21-2021, 09:38 AM   #40
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Maybe I am missing something but why is the TQ so low...

Less TQ than an accord 2.0t? Something doesn't add up here... these are abysmal metrics for a $100k car.
Good point. Seems strange

Quote:
By jettisoning that "4S" badge (and saving $24,900 in the process), the entry Taycan model comes exclusively with rear-wheel drive, thanks to a single, aft-mounted electric motor that makes 402 hp (300 kW) and 254 pound-feet (344 newton-meters) in standard form. Porsche will also offer a Performance Battery Plus option that ups power to 469 hp and 263 lb-ft (350 kW and 357 Nm) by swapping out a 79.2-kilowatt-hour lithium-ion unit for one that holds 93.4 kWh.
My 15 year old Z4M has 262 ft lbs (and not known for having much torque) but luckily weighs almost 2,000 lbs. less. Most EV's seem to have hp and torque numbers very close, often with torque higher. Will be interesting to see the acceleration. Maybe the theory that Porsche buyers only care about the brand, it is a Porsche and don't cross shop and this will be enough to make the sale.....
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      01-21-2021, 09:40 AM   #41
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Something very sexy about that price. But yeah I can this easily ticking 100k+
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      01-21-2021, 10:37 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
No one wants a sports sedan. They want SUVs
A Taycan is a sports sedan
It's teetering on $80K
If you're not careful and you sneeze while ordering, you could end up paying close to $100K for it.

$500+ for embossed headrest, and $200+ for colored crest on the center cap and so on.
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      01-21-2021, 12:06 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
A Taycan is a sports sedan
It's teetering on $80K
If you're not careful and you sneeze while ordering, you could end up paying close to $100K for it.

$500+ for embossed headrest, and $200+ for colored crest on the center cap and so on.
The true cost for a porsche with "reasonable" (not extravagant) options is base*1.5
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      01-21-2021, 12:11 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Which competitors have you driven and why is the Porsche significantly better than the others?

Also, why are you the last guy on the EV interest list but at the same time say "a Macan with a Taycan Turbo battery would be incredible"? Seems like you are very interested in the right EV.
What other competitor to this car is there apart from the Model S? If you want to pick the easy stuff, the quality of cars are different planets apart. The Porsche also drives like a Porsche should all things considered, it was very impressive.

However... I didn't find it $130k impressive, which was what the 4S I test drove cost. IMO, an electric is only to add to fun cars, as it cannot match it. I view it as an appliance, and in that regards, $1900 a month for a "commuter" car is ridiculous. There are so many advantages of an electric cars for every day use though.

P.S. I find a used i3S very compelling at around $20k btw. But obviously, this is not as a replacement for an M.
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