BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   6Post.com | BMW 6-Series Forum > BMW 6 Series Forum > BMW M6 Forum (F12 / F13)

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-26-2015, 01:47 PM   #1
joe@trinityautosport
joe@trinityautosport's Avatar
United_States
187
Rep
1,318
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 | F10 M5
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Anaheim, CA

iTrader: (10)

Send a message via AIM to joe@trinityautosport
MSR Intake *Pics

Just installed MSR's Intake. Sounds AMAZING! I'm letting the car adapt to the new intake and I'll be dyno'ing it in couple of weeks













Appreciate 0
      02-26-2015, 02:03 PM   #2
HoustonRider
big pimpin
United_States
34
Rep
327
Posts

Drives: 2014 M6 GC and 2015 4 GC
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Houston

iTrader: (0)

That looks cool.
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2015, 02:15 PM   #3
AstonMartian777
Captain
109
Rep
648
Posts

Drives: 2014 M6 F06
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: New York, NY

iTrader: (0)

DAMN !!!!!!!!!!!!!
__________________
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2015, 02:22 PM   #4
tony.m6
Captain
United_States
98
Rep
680
Posts

Drives: M6, CTS-V, F10 M5, TURBO-S
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Florida-Miami

iTrader: (1)

I have one.... And I love it.. I'm so glad I got it!!!
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2015, 02:46 PM   #5
Ameer ///M6
Private First Class
15
Rep
149
Posts

Drives: '14 M6 GC & 07 bmw M6
Join Date: May 2012
Location: So Cal

iTrader: (1)

Yup, have had mine on for almost 6 months now. Love it!!
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2015, 03:06 PM   #6
C's Bimmer
Lieutenant
C's Bimmer's Avatar
United_States
63
Rep
452
Posts

Drives: '15 M6 GC,'08 M5,'14 958 GTS
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

Joe - I want them! Text me!
__________________

Current Garage:
*2015 Singapore Grey F06 M6 Gran Coupe (The Beast)
*2014 Black Cayenne GTS 958 (Wife & Kids Beast)
*2008 Imola Red E60 M5 (My Other Beast)
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2015, 03:09 PM   #7
devondragon
Lieutenant
devondragon's Avatar
United_States
142
Rep
427
Posts

Drives: 2019 M5 Competition
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Boulder, CO

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
They look amazing! How is the sound?

Do you get much HP/TQ gain on intake changes with the M6? I haven't seen much dyno proof of that so far, compared to other turbo cars I've owned..
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2015, 03:19 PM   #8
Sharif507
Second Lieutenant
28
Rep
221
Posts

Drives: M6 F13 2014
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Panama

iTrader: (0)

oh wow. price? makes me think about dumping my afe
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2015, 03:24 PM   #9
E60orBust
Captain
United_States
77
Rep
826
Posts

Drives: "The Brothers //M-Sport" E90/2
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: MD

iTrader: (2)

Right behind the kidney grills - no concerns about hydrolock?
__________________
Down for Maintenance
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2015, 03:38 PM   #10
joe@trinityautosport
joe@trinityautosport's Avatar
United_States
187
Rep
1,318
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 | F10 M5
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Anaheim, CA

iTrader: (10)

Send a message via AIM to joe@trinityautosport
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonRider View Post
That looks cool.
Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AstonMartian777 View Post
DAMN !!!!!!!!!!!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by tony.m6 View Post
I have one.... And I love it.. I'm so glad I got it!!!
I'm waiting for it to adapt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ameer ///M6 View Post
Yup, have had mine on for almost 6 months now. Love it!!
Nice!

Quote:
Originally Posted by C's Bimmer View Post
Joe - I want them! Text me!
Messaged LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by devondragon View Post
They look amazing! How is the sound?

Do you get much HP/TQ gain on intake changes with the M6? I haven't seen much dyno proof of that so far, compared to other turbo cars I've owned..
Sounds AMAZING! I can hear the turbo's A LOT more. HP/TQ gains are 22-40 for both depending on what mods you have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharif507 View Post
oh wow. price? makes me think about dumping my afe
PM me for pricing
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2015, 03:41 PM   #11
bigbrian
riding on rails
bigbrian's Avatar
United_States
105
Rep
655
Posts

Drives: 2o13 m6 f13
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: wichita kansas

iTrader: (0)

I like how they wrap all the way around and are located right behind the kidneys. Not sure how I would feel if I drove the car in the rain a whole lot though as your filters would obviously get wet and you don't want wet filters.

They look good though and if you had them highly polished and clear powder coated they would look pretty sick sitting in the engine bay. I have the Gruppe M intake on my car right now and if I didn't have this I would probably try these out. I doubt I am going to get much gain using these vs. the Gruppe though so I will save my pennies and stick with what I have.

@joetrinityautosport - Are you saying you will see 22-40hp gains on the dyno from installing these. C'mon... That sounds a bit outlandish to me.

Brian
__________________
/// 2o13 m6 f13 . jb4 tuned . meth injected . msr intake . 21" adv1 wheels . eisenmann race w/ catless DPs . vorsteiner full aero . accuair e-level w/ bagged KW V3 struts . dinan sways . bel stir+ w/ alp jammer . jl audio subs
/// 2o13 x5m e70 . velos tuned . 22" adv1 wheels . dropped on kw variant3 coilovers . passport 9500ci radar & jammer. gets groceries fast
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2015, 03:54 PM   #12
C5driver
Major
C5driver's Avatar
3389
Rep
1,154
Posts

Drives: 55...just kidding.
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: 33.6167 N, 117.8975 W

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe@trinityautosport View Post
Sounds AMAZING! I can hear the turbo's A LOT more. HP/TQ gains are 22-40 for both depending on what mods you have.
Will you have your car at the shop next Wed? I'm coming in for the install and would like to see it.
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2015, 04:48 PM   #13
m6beast
Captain
m6beast's Avatar
174
Rep
787
Posts

Drives: stock m6
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: nc

iTrader: (0)

Joe glad you like them and welcome to the club.

The Dyno has shown 20-40 WHP and torque between my stock M5 and on my fully modded M6 do to being more efficient, and my M6 had BMS filters charcoal filter delete RPI scoops befure intake. The Dyno doesn't show its true potential do to its unconventional design.
Everything has been tested from Vbox track and Dyno and proven gains not only on my personal cars but also customers cars as well. Two of my customers had Gruppe M and noticed a huge improvement immediately even before adapting.

Vbox gains have proven .5 seconds from 60-130 mph on my completely stock M5
Also track proven on a customers M5 knocked off .5 seconds off the 1/4 and gain 4-5 mph. My M6 world record 10.7 129mph befire intake 11.0 126-127mph These are real and proven tests not estimated guesses.

And I know it's hard to believe for an intake, but what people aren't realizing is the difference in its design. The air is compressed and the turbos don't have to suck the air now they flow more efficiently. The faster you go the higher the velocity and volume of air. Now the turbos pull all the way to redline as everything has been designed for this purpose. Even between shifts air is coming with instant gear snaps after fully adapting.

As for the filters they are made of 304 stainless steel mesh not cloth so weather has no effect and proven in daily use for over a year between my m5 and m6.

Im also waiting for a prefilter that was custom made for this intake. It is a water repellent material as well as restricts particles as small as .005. I decided to make these for those who have concerns as well as needing more confidence when driving in the rain. Also have been tested by the prefilter company to have no loss in performance. So for those who are worried you will have that option.

Hope this helps and answers some questions and concerns

Once again congrats Joe on your new intake.

G
Appreciate 1
dukewes25.50

      02-27-2015, 06:50 AM   #14
DCT OFF
Second Lieutenant
DCT OFF's Avatar
49
Rep
235
Posts

Drives: 2014 435i M sports,2013 F10 M5
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2013 F10 M5  [0.00]
I had mine for almost 7 months now,the sound is amazing and there is definitely performance gain when fully adapted.
Appreciate 0
      02-27-2015, 02:37 PM   #15
joe@trinityautosport
joe@trinityautosport's Avatar
United_States
187
Rep
1,318
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 | F10 M5
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Anaheim, CA

iTrader: (10)

Send a message via AIM to joe@trinityautosport
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbrian View Post
I like how they wrap all the way around and are located right behind the kidneys. Not sure how I would feel if I drove the car in the rain a whole lot though as your filters would obviously get wet and you don't want wet filters.

They look good though and if you had them highly polished and clear powder coated they would look pretty sick sitting in the engine bay. I have the Gruppe M intake on my car right now and if I didn't have this I would probably try these out. I doubt I am going to get much gain using these vs. the Gruppe though so I will save my pennies and stick with what I have.

@joetrinityautosport - Are you saying you will see 22-40hp gains on the dyno from installing these. C'mon... That sounds a bit outlandish to me.

Brian
Hi Brian...talking to MSR no issues with rain. He's going to provide a prefilter cover for the intake. As for the dyno numbers I am going off of MSR and I'm sure it's proven. Also, I'll be dyno'ing it next week

Quote:
Originally Posted by C5driver View Post
Will you have your car at the shop next Wed? I'm coming in for the install and would like to see it.
I MIGHT have it...not sure. Jailbreak is taking the car to make some more power

Quote:
Originally Posted by m6beast View Post
Joe glad you like them and welcome to the club.

The Dyno has shown 20-40 WHP and torque between my stock M5 and on my fully modded M6 do to being more efficient, and my M6 had BMS filters charcoal filter delete RPI scoops befure intake. The Dyno doesn't show its true potential do to its unconventional design.
Everything has been tested from Vbox track and Dyno and proven gains not only on my personal cars but also customers cars as well. Two of my customers had Gruppe M and noticed a huge improvement immediately even before adapting.

Vbox gains have proven .5 seconds from 60-130 mph on my completely stock M5
Also track proven on a customers M5 knocked off .5 seconds off the 1/4 and gain 4-5 mph. My M6 world record 10.7 129mph befire intake 11.0 126-127mph These are real and proven tests not estimated guesses.

And I know it's hard to believe for an intake, but what people aren't realizing is the difference in its design. The air is compressed and the turbos don't have to suck the air now they flow more efficiently. The faster you go the higher the velocity and volume of air. Now the turbos pull all the way to redline as everything has been designed for this purpose. Even between shifts air is coming with instant gear snaps after fully adapting.

As for the filters they are made of 304 stainless steel mesh not cloth so weather has no effect and proven in daily use for over a year between my m5 and m6.

Im also waiting for a prefilter that was custom made for this intake. It is a water repellent material as well as restricts particles as small as .005. I decided to make these for those who have concerns as well as needing more confidence when driving in the rain. Also have been tested by the prefilter company to have no loss in performance. So for those who are worried you will have that option.

Hope this helps and answers some questions and concerns

Once again congrats Joe on your new intake.

G
Thanks George!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCT OFF View Post
I had mine for almost 7 months now,the sound is amazing and there is definitely performance gain when fully adapted.
Appreciate 0
      03-03-2015, 12:43 PM   #16
joe@trinityautosport
joe@trinityautosport's Avatar
United_States
187
Rep
1,318
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 | F10 M5
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Anaheim, CA

iTrader: (10)

Send a message via AIM to joe@trinityautosport
Appreciate 0
      03-15-2015, 03:06 PM   #17
TXAlex
Enlisted Member
4
Rep
44
Posts

Drives: M6 Gran Coupe
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin, Texas

iTrader: (0)

How to order?

I'm ready to put these in my GC.
Appreciate 0
      03-16-2015, 12:23 AM   #18
chask
Private First Class
United_States
26
Rep
152
Posts

Drives: 2014 M6 GC
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: OK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by m6beast View Post
Joe glad you like them and welcome to the club.

The Dyno has shown 20-40 WHP and torque between my stock M5 and on my fully modded M6 do to being more efficient, and my M6 had BMS filters charcoal filter delete RPI scoops befure intake. The Dyno doesn't show its true potential do to its unconventional design.
Everything has been tested from Vbox track and Dyno and proven gains not only on my personal cars but also customers cars as well. Two of my customers had Gruppe M and noticed a huge improvement immediately even before adapting.

Vbox gains have proven .5 seconds from 60-130 mph on my completely stock M5
Also track proven on a customers M5 knocked off .5 seconds off the 1/4 and gain 4-5 mph. My M6 world record 10.7 129mph befire intake 11.0 126-127mph These are real and proven tests not estimated guesses.

And I know it's hard to believe for an intake, but what people aren't realizing is the difference in its design. The air is compressed and the turbos don't have to suck the air now they flow more efficiently. The faster you go the higher the velocity and volume of air. Now the turbos pull all the way to redline as everything has been designed for this purpose. Even between shifts air is coming with instant gear snaps after fully adapting.
I have a pretty good feeling these dyno hp numbers are most likely a bit off from what is actually seen on the road. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they weren't higher, and perhaps quite a bit when compared to a real world scenario - well, at least on the scale of the change he is talking about (about 20-40 hp).

There ought to be a ram air affect that m6beast alludes to. We have all seen hood scoops and specially designed air inlet ducts on race cars. THey do not go to that trouble for nothing. I have done a lot of engine dyno testing and there are just some things one cannot replicate on the dyno. In this case it is the affect of the air pressure in front of the radiator. With that grill as open as it is, once the car gets above normal street speeds there ought to be quite the pressure buildup in that area where the filters are. As m6beast said, that will make it much easier on the turbos.

Without instrumenting it and testing this on the road to verify things I obviously can't be absolutely sure. But I'd speculate that it would increase the overall air flow into the engine by lowering the intake temperature (a little - if nothing else, unless you are standing still the coolest air around the engine compartment is going to be just in front of the car) and by slightly pressurinzing the air at the compressor inlet (once the car is moving). That ought to mean more air in the combustion chamber, so you can burn more fuel and thus get more hp. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the turbos would spool up a little quicker too, though I have a feeling it's something that would only be once the car was rolling a bit. There is no ram air effect when sitting still so no benefit there. But once you get moving . . . And though my car is still in the break in period (no wide open throttle, not yet ), from what I have seen so far getting this car moving is not too much of a problem.

Since I've not seen the compressor maps for the turbos on the car, I'd be a bit concerned about hitting the surge line, especially if you are trying to run gobs of boost at low RPM. Surge occurs in the low flow range of the compressor. It happens when the velocity of the tips of the compressor wheel reach the speed of sound. Compressor surge is a very bad thing. But if it were happening believe me I really think you would know. It makes a hellacious racket - sort of a chattering sound as the blades go supersonic, then oscillate between supersonic and subsonic speeds. It's kind of like the sound of your tongue fluttering if you hold your jaws and tongue just right then blow, only in this case it is much louder - you hear this nice whine as the compressor wheel spools up then suddenly it's not so smooth and much louder. Depending on how severe it is, it also can also be noticed as a slight hesitation in the vehicle (maybe a slight stuttering sensation), but with as much power as this car has you might not notice that. Back when airplanes were first learning about the speed of sound this 'buffeting' effect knocked planes out of the sky. So this also can tear up a compressor wheel pretty badly (tips can break off - they used to be just cast aluminum), and it's not too good on the bearings either. But I seriously doubt this is happening. I can't imagine that the compressor is sized that close to the surge line or that this mod alone is taking it to it.

The other thing I'd worry about a little is at the other end of engine operation - high RPM, near the shift point. Compressors are usually operating at their least efficiency at maximum boost and maximum RPM. What this translates to is a higher intake temperature. The turbo is merely increasing the air temperature, and in this range of operation (high boost and high air flow) a whole lot. If you start at a lower temperature at the compressor inlet you should see the same reduction at the compressor outlet. With this system grabbing the coldest air available it ought to make a really big difference at that RPM range, especially when you consider how fast the car is moving as a contributing factor to reducing the work the turbo has to do to compress the air. And with the air at the compressor inlet likely at a little higher pressure, it should make the turbo operate more efficiently too - less of a temperature increase. This is why I think the hp numbers are probably a bit misleading. Most likely they are actually higher than what you are seeing on a chassis dyno.

I'd love to see someone put a pressure sensor or two and some temperature sensors in front of the radiator and somewhere after the compressor to see what is really happening here.

There is another possible reason for the increase, and it may be a primary one. It's been a really long time since I have done any of this, but as I recall with an air/fuel ratio of about 12.5 (what you want to be running when the throttle is close to or fully open) it takes about 1-1/3 CFM to make a horsepower. So at 700 hp you are pumping about 933 cfm (cubic feet per minute) through the engine. That's another possible benefit I think I see in this system (or a similar one for that matter). 933 cfm is 15.6 cubic feet per second. When you consider the diameter of the stock inlet piping that air is really honking - calculate the cross sectional area of the tubing and divide it into the flow velocity (make sure you are using the same units - either square feet for cross sectional area or cubic inched for flow velocity). That will tell you the flow velocity. There are all sorts of odd effects on compressible fluid flow (air is considered a compressible fluid) as the flow velocity increases and not many of them are good for making hp. Come to think of it, none that I can think of until the air gets into the combustion chamber. It looks like the tubing MSR is using is a bit bigger than stock. One caveat here - I literally just got my M6 and have hardly looked under the hood so I might be wrong about this. Plus it also looks like they have possibly reduced restrictions in the flow path too - not so many turns and the ones that are there look much smoother. This helps a lot too (a lower flow velocity and less turbulent flow), especially at high RPM. Trying to suck that much air through the intake system causes a vacuum. If you reduce the restriction (make the plumbing bigger) you also reduce the vacuum generated. Since there is no way to replicate the ram air effect I wouldn't be surprised if the dyno gains are mostly from this. But I would not negate the effect of those other factors either, and I would not at all be surprised if there wasn't more there than the chassis dyno showed. Another thing to consider - the lower inlet temperatures and pressures will also help with longevity too.

When you are hunting horsepower, it's usually pretty easy to get enough fuel in the engine. The trick is in getting more air in there, and then out after it's burned (free flowing exhaust system). Anything that improves the air flow is a good idea.

m6beast - I hear you are involved in this somehow. I was professionally involved with turbocharging cars and high performance stuff for about 15 years, 20 if you add in my amateur time (yeah, it's been a while). During that time I saw a lot of this kind of stuff at about all levels - from mild attempts at street beasts to Indy and SCCA champion engines and everything in between. I've got to say this is a really nice looking product. From what I can tell in the pictures and in your test data, as well as from what I have heard locally from people who have used it, it appears to be well thought out and implemented very well too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m6beast View Post
. . .
As for the filters they are made of 304 stainless steel mesh not cloth so weather has no effect and proven in daily use for over a year between my m5 and m6.
I think the worry for me is more with the filter material getting wet. As they are located in that area just behind the grill it is possible that they could get a lot of water on the filter media - if not from rain coming in there (during higher speed motion), having a vehicle just in front of you hitting a good size puddle and flooding the front of your car might do it. Obviously, wet filet media won't pass as much air as a dry one does. But you say there have been no issues with this so far. That's encouraging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m6beast View Post
Im also waiting for a prefilter that was custom made for this intake. It is a water repellent material as well as restricts particles as small as .005. I decided to make these for those who have concerns as well as needing more confidence when driving in the rain. Also have been tested by the prefilter company to have no loss in performance. So for those who are worried you will have that option.

Hope this helps and answers some questions and concerns

Once again congrats Joe on your new intake.

G
I like the pre-filter idea too - a whole lot. But it is as much for the sound as anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCT OFF View Post
I had mine for almost 7 months now,the sound is amazing and there is definitely performance gain when fully adapted.
The other thing that bothers me is the noise level. I don't want to get into it but I have a rather unusual health issue that sometimes makes louder sounds more than just unpleasant for me. If I were going to get something like this the goal would be to improve the air flow into the engine, not to make a 'cooler' turbo sound. In fact, I'd prefer it to be as quiet as possible too (yeah, I'm an old fart). Just how much louder is it with this modification? Windows up and windows down, do you get to hear the compressor whine as it spools up and down, or is it just the sucking sound of additional air flow at higher RPMs, or both?

Last edited by chask; 03-16-2015 at 05:54 AM..
Appreciate 0
      03-16-2015, 03:43 PM   #19
m6beast
Captain
m6beast's Avatar
174
Rep
787
Posts

Drives: stock m6
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: nc

iTrader: (0)

Great right up and you hit it on the nail on everything you've talked about.

The Dyno numbers do not prove the intakes true potential that's why I vbox and track to show its power potential. The intake has an unconventional design where it is pressurized air as well as higher velocity as you increase mph. After the car has fully adapted it feels like you raised the boost 2-3lbs which in my assumptions proved to be accurate.

Vbox testing on the intake has proven .5 seconds off the 60-130 mph on my bone stock M5 with the intake.

Also a 1/4 mile race against one of my customers cars at the track we ran identical times with same 60ft. He had BMS 3.5 boost, e mid section, turner muffler delete, upgraded OEM intake with charcoal filter delete, BMS filters and RPI scoops. All I had was the intake.

After our race he wanted the intake. He went back to the track after full adaptation and knocked off .4-.5 seconds and gained 4-5 mph in the 1/4 mile.

As for intake temps they would drop 4-5 degrees per pull where the factory would go up 5-6 degrees and eventually heat soak. Also when running the intake if intake temps rose for pushing through its paces it would immediately go back to original intake temps as soon as you let off while cruising a bit. The factory intake would go up more and more and would take for ever to go back to original intake temps.

Also did a test where I sat in a parking lot for 30 minutes and watched intake temps rise from 120-150. As soon as I pulled out of the parking lot and started kicking it intake temps went all the way down to 115 and as soon as I let off went back to normal of 120 plus it was high 90's F that day. Everyone knows any intake sitting in a parking lot will heat soak as well as staying that way for quite sometime and no way for the car to run strong Immediately.

As for rain we drove from SC to OCALA Florida 7-8 hour in pouring rain going 70-80 mph with no issues and all three of us had this setup. The filter material is a stainless steel mesh so rain does not effect it as if it was a Cotten filter.

The prefilter is mostly for those who have the concearn and to give them confidence when driving in the rain. As for sound you can't really hear it from with in the car you have to have your windows down and try to listen. If you have a full exhaust system and catless DP it's even harder to hear. But if you're walking down the road or in a car infront you can definitely hear it.

The pipping diameter was made specifically for the intake to prevent CELs as well as the special made transitions and velocity stacks to give the best flow as well as no turbulence while keeping hoses clamps and attachments to a minimum.

Also it was designed to fit like OEM and not cutting up your car in any way while making everything maintenance accessible so you don't have to remove the intake when servicing.If you decide to sell your car or turn it in an easy swap to OEM with no signs of modification.

The intake took some time to get it right especially how anal I am in fit and finish as well as performance. I don't cut corners and take Pride in every detail.

Here's a comment from one of my customers from Canada

"George,

I finally unpacked your intake last night. Very nice man, I am a fabricator too, but on an industrial scale so I can relate to what you had to go through to bring this to market. I can see lots of precision."

For those who want to see all the data testing on the intake please email me info@mstreetracing.com and I'll send it over. Once again thanks for the support

G

Quote:
Originally Posted by chask View Post
I have a pretty good feeling these dyno hp numbers are most likely a bit off from what is actually seen on the road. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they weren't higher, and perhaps quite a bit when compared to a real world scenario - well, at least on the scale of the change he is talking about (about 20-40 hp).

There ought to be a ram air affect that m6beast alludes to. We have all seen hood scoops and specially designed air inlet ducts on race cars. THey do not go to that trouble for nothing. I have done a lot of engine dyno testing and there are just some things one cannot replicate on the dyno. In this case it is the affect of the air pressure in front of the radiator. With that grill as open as it is, once the car gets above normal street speeds there ought to be quite the pressure buildup in that area where the filters are. As m6beast said, that will make it much easier on the turbos.

Without instrumenting it and testing this on the road to verify things I obviously can't be absolutely sure. But I'd speculate that it would increase the overall air flow into the engine by lowering the intake temperature (a little - if nothing else, unless you are standing still the coolest air around the engine compartment is going to be just in front of the car) and by slightly pressurinzing the air at the compressor inlet (once the car is moving). That ought to mean more air in the combustion chamber, so you can burn more fuel and thus get more hp. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the turbos would spool up a little quicker too, though I have a feeling it's something that would only be once the car was rolling a bit. There is no ram air effect when sitting still so no benefit there. But once you get moving . . . And though my car is still in the break in period (no wide open throttle, not yet ), from what I have seen so far getting this car moving is not too much of a problem.

Since I've not seen the compressor maps for the turbos on the car, I'd be a bit concerned about hitting the surge line, especially if you are trying to run gobs of boost at low RPM. Surge occurs in the low flow range of the compressor. It happens when the velocity of the tips of the compressor wheel reach the speed of sound. Compressor surge is a very bad thing. But if it were happening believe me I really think you would know. It makes a hellacious racket - sort of a chattering sound as the blades go supersonic, then oscillate between supersonic and subsonic speeds. It's kind of like the sound of your tongue fluttering if you hold your jaws and tongue just right then blow, only in this case it is much louder - you hear this nice whine as the compressor wheel spools up then suddenly it's not so smooth and much louder. Depending on how severe it is, it also can also be noticed as a slight hesitation in the vehicle (maybe a slight stuttering sensation), but with as much power as this car has you might not notice that. Back when airplanes were first learning about the speed of sound this 'buffeting' effect knocked planes out of the sky. So this also can tear up a compressor wheel pretty badly (tips can break off - they used to be just cast aluminum), and it's not too good on the bearings either. But I seriously doubt this is happening. I can't imagine that the compressor is sized that close to the surge line or that this mod alone is taking it to it.

The other thing I'd worry about a little is at the other end of engine operation - high RPM, near the shift point. Compressors are usually operating at their least efficiency at maximum boost and maximum RPM. What this translates to is a higher intake temperature. The turbo is merely increasing the air temperature, and in this range of operation (high boost and high air flow) a whole lot. If you start at a lower temperature at the compressor inlet you should see the same reduction at the compressor outlet. With this system grabbing the coldest air available it ought to make a really big difference at that RPM range, especially when you consider how fast the car is moving as a contributing factor to reducing the work the turbo has to do to compress the air. And with the air at the compressor inlet likely at a little higher pressure, it should make the turbo operate more efficiently too - less of a temperature increase. This is why I think the hp numbers are probably a bit misleading. Most likely they are actually higher than what you are seeing on a chassis dyno.

I'd love to see someone put a pressure sensor or two and some temperature sensors in front of the radiator and somewhere after the compressor to see what is really happening here.

There is another possible reason for the increase, and it may be a primary one. It's been a really long time since I have done any of this, but as I recall with an air/fuel ratio of about 12.5 (what you want to be running when the throttle is close to or fully open) it takes about 1-1/3 CFM to make a horsepower. So at 700 hp you are pumping about 933 cfm (cubic feet per minute) through the engine. That's another possible benefit I think I see in this system (or a similar one for that matter). 933 cfm is 15.6 cubic feet per second. When you consider the diameter of the stock inlet piping that air is really honking - calculate the cross sectional area of the tubing and divide it into the flow velocity (make sure you are using the same units - either square feet for cross sectional area or cubic inched for flow velocity). That will tell you the flow velocity. There are all sorts of odd effects on compressible fluid flow (air is considered a compressible fluid) as the flow velocity increases and not many of them are good for making hp. Come to think of it, none that I can think of until the air gets into the combustion chamber. It looks like the tubing MSR is using is a bit bigger than stock. One caveat here - I literally just got my M6 and have hardly looked under the hood so I might be wrong about this. Plus it also looks like they have possibly reduced restrictions in the flow path too - not so many turns and the ones that are there look much smoother. This helps a lot too (a lower flow velocity and less turbulent flow), especially at high RPM. Trying to suck that much air through the intake system causes a vacuum. If you reduce the restriction (make the plumbing bigger) you also reduce the vacuum generated. Since there is no way to replicate the ram air effect I wouldn't be surprised if the dyno gains are mostly from this. But I would not negate the effect of those other factors either, and I would not at all be surprised if there wasn't more there than the chassis dyno showed. Another thing to consider - the lower inlet temperatures and pressures will also help with longevity too.

When you are hunting horsepower, it's usually pretty easy to get enough fuel in the engine. The trick is in getting more air in there, and then out after it's burned (free flowing exhaust system). Anything that improves the air flow is a good idea.

m6beast - I hear you are involved in this somehow. I was professionally involved with turbocharging cars and high performance stuff for about 15 years, 20 if you add in my amateur time (yeah, it's been a while). During that time I saw a lot of this kind of stuff at about all levels - from mild attempts at street beasts to Indy and SCCA champion engines and everything in between. I've got to say this is a really nice looking product. From what I can tell in the pictures and in your test data, as well as from what I have heard locally from people who have used it, it appears to be well thought out and implemented very well too.



I think the worry for me is more with the filter material getting wet. As they are located in that area just behind the grill it is possible that they could get a lot of water on the filter media - if not from rain coming in there (during higher speed motion), having a vehicle just in front of you hitting a good size puddle and flooding the front of your car might do it. Obviously, wet filet media won't pass as much air as a dry one does. But you say there have been no issues with this so far. That's encouraging.



I like the pre-filter idea too - a whole lot. But it is as much for the sound as anything else.



The other thing that bothers me is the noise level. I don't want to get into it but I have a rather unusual health issue that sometimes makes louder sounds more than just unpleasant for me. If I were going to get something like this the goal would be to improve the air flow into the engine, not to make a 'cooler' turbo sound. In fact, I'd prefer it to be as quiet as possible too (yeah, I'm an old fart). Just how much louder is it with this modification? Windows up and windows down, do you get to hear the compressor whine as it spools up and down, or is it just the sucking sound of additional air flow at higher RPMs, or both?

Last edited by m6beast; 03-16-2015 at 04:05 PM..
Appreciate 0
      03-17-2015, 04:58 AM   #20
chask
Private First Class
United_States
26
Rep
152
Posts

Drives: 2014 M6 GC
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: OK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by m6beast View Post
. . .
Vbox testing on the intake has proven .5 seconds off the 60-130 mph on my bone stock M5 with the intake.

Also a 1/4 mile race against one of my customers cars at the track we ran identical times with same 60ft. He had BMS 3.5 boost, e mid section, turner muffler delete, upgraded OEM intake with charcoal filter delete, BMS filters and RPI scoops. All I had was the intake.
I'm not sure I completely understand the terminology here. Are you saying your times were the same for 60 ft. or the full 1/4 mile, or both? I would not be surprised if it was both. People often underestimate the effect of reducing restriction on the inlet side. I'd suggest they try walking around breathing completely through a straw, then start to jog or even run. It usually doesn't take more than a few steps to get that point across. Generally though I would try to go as big as I could possibly fit in there (just to keep the flow velocity and turbulence down), necking up after the filter section then back down at the compressor inlet. Do some air flow volume calculations vs. RPM (or measure them) and then calculate the flow velocity. It was kind of a surprise to me. Remember there is no pressure on the inlet side, so it does not have the benefit of the compression as you do after the compressor.

The vbox is kind of cool. Never had seen one of those before. I'll bet that comes in pretty handy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m6beast View Post
After our race he wanted the intake. He went back to the track after full adaptation and knocked off .4-.5 seconds and gained 4-5 mph in the 1/4 mile.

As for intake temps they would drop 4-5 degrees per pull where the factory would go up 5-6 degrees and eventually heat soak. Also when running the intake if intake temps rose for pushing through its paces it would immediately go back to original intake temps as soon as you let off while cruising a bit. The factory intake would go up more and more and would take for ever to go back to original intake temps.
It's not surprising he wanted one. A half a second in a 1/4 mile is pretty hard to find.

Did you do any temperature testing after compression - before or after the intercoolers or both?

Quote:
Originally Posted by m6beast View Post
Also did a test where I sat in a parking lot for 30 minutes and watched intake temps rise from 120-150. As soon as I pulled out of the parking lot and started kicking it intake temps went all the way down to 115 and as soon as I let off went back to normal of 120 plus it was high 90's F that day. Everyone knows any intake sitting in a parking lot will heat soak as well as staying that way for quite sometime and no way for the car to run strong Immediately.
That's a big plus too. Have you done any testing on a stock intake setup to see how it behaves? I'd love to see the data, or even a synopsis like the one above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m6beast View Post
As for rain we drove from SC to OCALA Florida 7-8 hour in pouring rain going 70-80 mph with no issues and all three of us had this setup. The filter material is a stainless steel mesh so rain does not effect it as if it was a Cotten filter.

The prefilter is mostly for those who have the concearn and to give them confidence when driving in the rain. As for sound you can't really hear it from with in the car you have to have your windows down and try to listen. If you have a full exhaust system and catless DP it's even harder to hear. But if you're walking down the road or in a car infront you can definitely hear it.
Do I understand you correctly that the filter media is a stainless mesh? Hmmm? How good is the filtration - smallest particles, etc.? Will the pre-filter change that in any way? I am also curious about the maintenance schedule and procedure on one.

If I am reading this correctly I assume all you have to do is wash the filter section then dry it, maybe even blow dry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m6beast View Post
The pipping diameter was made specifically for the intake to prevent CELs as well as the special made transitions and velocity stacks to give the best flow as well as no turbulence while keeping hoses clamps and attachments to a minimum.
Now I am wondering what would cause the engine light to come on. Flow velocity out of range maybe? Excessive turbulence could probably do it too. I have only briefly glanced at the engine compartment but I did immediately notice an air flow sensor sitting right on top, just after what I assume is the right headlight filter box. Heck, I don't even know if it is a MAF or MAP based system - saw something recently about a Pitot tube/venturi sensor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m6beast View Post
Also it was designed to fit like OEM and not cutting up your car in any way while making everything maintenance accessible so you don't have to remove the intake when servicing.If you decide to sell your car or turn it in an easy swap to OEM with no signs of modification.

The intake took some time to get it right especially how anal I am in fit and finish as well as performance. I don't cut corners and take Pride in every detail.
. . .
All of that above really shows too. That and the really nice installation job Joe at Trinity did putting it on the car in the first post.

The 'back to stock' capability is a nice touch as well.

Joe - did you get to any of the dyno testing yet? I'm curious to see how your results and how they compare.

m6beast - Some of this is getting kind of technical, and maybe a bit off topic here too. Would you please PM me with some of this or shoot me an email please? I am sending you one now for the other info.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DCT OFF View Post
I had mine for almost 7 months now,the sound is amazing and there is definitely performance gain when fully adapted.
What do you all mean by 'fully adapted'? Is this the engine management system learning the characteristics of the new intake system - different air flow vs. RPM and manifold pressure, etc.?


My kudos to everyone involved - product, installation and the lucky owner.
Appreciate 0
      03-17-2015, 09:26 AM   #21
m6beast
Captain
m6beast's Avatar
174
Rep
787
Posts

Drives: stock m6
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: nc

iTrader: (0)

Hey Chask

I sent you a PM, send me an email at info@mstreetracing.com too much data to PM I'll reply back with all the details.

Hopefully Joe can post his experience as well as Dyno numbers. From what he told me the Dyno nymbers showed some impressive gains with that Id rather him give details from his own experiences.
Appreciate 0
      03-17-2015, 11:59 AM   #22
joe@trinityautosport
joe@trinityautosport's Avatar
United_States
187
Rep
1,318
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 | F10 M5
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Anaheim, CA

iTrader: (10)

Send a message via AIM to joe@trinityautosport
I'm waiting for get the graph emailed to me. Sorry for the lag.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:23 PM.




6post.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST