Anyone miss driving a manual?

[NickyC]

I'm 46 years old and had never owned anything besides a manual (even learned to drive on a manual) until purchasing my G82 in June of 2021, and then my current F80 in August of 2021. I bought the Competition G82 because of the sizeable power downgrade the 6MT G82 came with, and also to deal with Miami traffic. I bought the F80 with DCT because it was on a nearby dealer's lot and the car was a fantastic deal at the time (as well as still having to deal with Miami traffic).

With that history, I have to be honest and tell you I really don't miss driving a manual all that much. I use the paddles exclusively and never let the car auto shift itself, I even make a habit of hitting the paddles to downshift so it feels like a manual. What really opened my eyes to the benefits of the paddles is that you keep both hands on the steering wheel at all times. A couple months back, I was driving a manual C7 Z06 a friend of mine has and it felt completely bizarre only having one hand on the wheel while shifting. Even though I had driven cars like that for nearly 30 years, after one year of using nothing but paddles as soon as I shifted back to a manual the driving experience felt very odd with only having one hand on the wheel. I didn't feel as in control and everything felt more loose, I hope that makes sense.

So do I miss driving a stick? The DCT in the F80 is so fantastic (even more so with the GTS flash I have on it), that I can't say I miss driving a stick at all. I don't think I could ever have an auto car where it does all the work for you, but by manually selecting all the gears up/down with the paddles I still feel like I'm shifting the car. If you just let the car go Auto mode with DCT it is BORING as hell, I'd never own a car that didn't let me manually select the gears up or down in some way.

I wouldn't say I'm a DCT convert from 6MT, but I certainly see the argument for it whereas a couple years ago I thought I'd be 6MT until the day I died. I hope this helps.

[eliphil]

I am not sure why this has to be such an emotional topic for so many, to each their own. For me, I had a pre owned 911 for ten years and sold it when it started to fall apart. I thought I could be happy with a sports sedan w paddle shifters and lasted 2.5 years before I bought a 2019 C7 Z06 M7. I just really missed shifting and in my opinion paddles shifters just dont give the same feeling of excitement as shifting with a clutch. I totally understand that auto transmissions are faster then manual but for me I still love to shift myself although I could not do it day to day with so much traffic and congestion.

[G80indy]

Funny how Car & Driver and even Savagegeese say they prefer the MT even after testing the auto with its performance.
I will add this point: it feels damn great to have a 500 hp manual transmission car in 2023! Rock on!

[RM7]

Turns and mountains go hand in hand with manual transmissions. If you are missing these other elements, it's kind of boring to drive anyway IMO. I'm always a little sad if I watch Hoovie's and see all the straight roads he's driving Ferrari's and Lambos on...

[dreamingat30fps]

You either enjoy shifting gears or you don't. It's like house chores, there are certain things I don't mind doing and actually find rather enjoyable like vacuuming or mowing the lawn and other I cannot stand like putting sheets on the bed. Putting sheets on the bed takes a fraction of the time the other two do but I cannot stand it.

Personally I've for the most part always had a manual car in the house. Right now I am manualess having sold the mustang a couple months ago and I already have the itch for another manual. If I get another one I will probably keep it in NC so I can take it out to the mountains and not have to deal with FL traffic (even though I don't really drive in real traffic much). I've had the paddles and the DCT and it's fine. If I was going to the track all the time maybe it's preferable because if I'm driving at my limit I would rather focus on my line, braking etc. However for 99.9% of my driving on the street for fun I prefer a manual. That being said I'm not a purist 100% mechanical this that or the other. I LOVE the auto rev matching manuals. Some people don't like that.

If I could only have 1 car that would be harder. I think maybe 5 years ago I would have probably said a manual, but now I'm not sure.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

You either enjoy shifting gears or you don't. It's like house chores, there are certain things I don't mind doing and actually find rather enjoyable like vacuuming or mowing the lawn and other I cannot stand like putting sheets on the bed. Putting sheets on the bed takes a fraction of the time the other two do but I cannot stand it.

Personally I've for the most part always had a manual car in the house. Right now I am manualess having sold the mustang a couple months ago and I already have the itch for another manual. If I get another one I will probably keep it in NC so I can take it out to the mountains and not have to deal with FL traffic (even though I don't really drive in real traffic much). I've had the paddles and the DCT and it's fine. If I was going to the track all the time maybe it's preferable because if I'm driving at my limit I would rather focus on my line, braking etc. However for 99.9% of my driving on the street for fun I prefer a manual. That being said I'm not a purist 100% mechanical this that or the other. I LOVE the auto rev matching manuals. Some people don't like that.

If I could only have 1 car that would be harder. I think maybe 5 years ago I would have probably said a manual, but now I'm not sure.

Idk what's worse. The anti-auto people or the anti-EV people.

Usually both camps have terrible reasoning to their arguments.

We all like what we like. But to say ONLY a manual is more fun is the dumbest shit anyone can ever read. We can all agree a manual involves you more. Just the concept alone is proof of that. No one is arguing that.

But auto's have advanced so much that there is literally NO NEED to have a manual UNLESS YOU WANT to do extra shit for nothing. If it makes you feel good, then that's all that matters. You like rowing gears, that's fine. But from an enjoyment standpoint, auto is right there with it.

From a performance standpoint, the auto wins everytime.

I leased a wrx a couple of years ago and i thought it would be the greatest thing. I can commute, do errands and be "racecar" everyday because it was a manual.

After 1 month, i put the car on swapalease because i was tired of driving a manual everyday. Shit is the worse. What enjoyment are you really getting when you literally have to shift every fucking couple of seconds, clutching in and fucking out in traffic jams. In a very fast pace city driving, manual is the worse.

If you live in the fucking boonies, then i would understand why most people would pick a manual.

I thought by getting rid of my manual daily, i can appreciate my manual weekend toy when those weekends came. The weekend would come, i would get in the car and go, "SIGH! Back to this shifting shit again".

After i sell this manual car i will never own another manual again. Auto's are too fucking good now. And with EV taking over soon, there won't be a need for autos as well

[G80indy]

😬

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Idk what's worse. The anti-auto people or the anti-EV people.

Usually both camps have terrible reasoning to their arguments.

We all like what we like. But to say ONLY a manual is more fun is the dumbest shit anyone can ever read. We can all agree a manual involves you more. Just the concept alone is proof of that. No one is arguing that.

But auto's have advanced so much that there is literally NO NEED to have a manual UNLESS YOU WANT to do extra shit for nothing. If it makes you feel good, then that's all that matters. You like rowing gears, that's fine. But from an enjoyment standpoint, auto is right there with it.

From a performance standpoint, the auto wins everytime.

I leased a wrx a couple of years ago and i thought it would be the greatest thing. I can commute, do errands and be "racecar" everyday because it was a manual.

After 1 month, i put the car on swapalease because i was tired of driving a manual everyday. Shit is the worse. What enjoyment are you really getting when you literally have to shift every fucking couple of seconds, clutching in and fucking out in traffic jams. In a very fast pace city driving, manual is the worse.

If you live in the fucking boonies, then i would understand why most people would pick a manual.

I thought by getting rid of my manual daily, i can appreciate my manual weekend toy when those weekends came. The weekend would come, i would get in the car and go, "SIGH! Back to this shifting shit again".

After i sell this manual car i will never own another manual again. Auto's are too fucking good now. And with EV taking over soon, there won't be a need for autos as well

I like manuals and I like EVs.

Different tools for different jobs. Given a choice I PERSONALLY would not take my Model 3 for a spirited drive through the mountains. However I would also take the Model 3 over my ex-mustang to run errands around town. Not sure why that's such a hard concept for some.

If you live in NY city and commute everyday for work and only have one car then maybe a manual isn't for you. If you live in an apartment in the middle of nowhere and drive 300 miles everyday maybe an EV isn't for you either. I don't understand the need to force people to like the same shit someone else likes.

Our house in NC is in the boonies. We both work from home and don't commute. I have other cars for daily stuff. I like my fun car whose sole purpose is driving pleasure to be manual. That being said I would consider an automatic if I really like a car and no manual is available (C8). The fact that an auto is faster or what not makes no difference to ME because I don't pretend to be Schumacher. I'm not driving my car anywhere near it's limits or mine and I rarely track my car so I have plenty of focus left for shifting.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

I like manuals and I like EVs.

Different tools for different jobs. Given a choice I PERSONALLY would not take my Model 3 for a spirited drive through the mountains. However I would also take the Model 3 over my ex-mustang to run errands around town. Not sure why that's such a hard concept for some.

If you live in NY city and commute everyday for work and only have one car then maybe a manual isn't for you. If you live in an apartment in the middle of nowhere and drive 300 miles everyday maybe an EV isn't for you either. I don't understand the need to force people to like the same shit someone else likes.

Our house in NC is in the boonies. We both work from home and don't commute. I have other cars for daily stuff. I like my fun car whose sole purpose is driving pleasure to be manual. That being said I would consider an automatic if I really like a car and no manual is available (C8). The fact that an auto is faster or what not makes no difference to ME because I don't pretend to be Schumacher. I'm not driving my car anywhere near it's limits or mine and I rarely track my car so I have plenty of focus left for shifting.

I have a model 3 coincidentally and i could NEVER go back to an ICE daily. It is by the far the BEST daily driver i have gotten in over 20 years. The only way i could go back to an ICE daily, if it's something outrageously good and fun like an X5M or a trackhawk or something. A fun powerful SUV.

My friend tracks his hellcat. And he loved the experience so much but hated all the money he is wasting on tires and brakes for that heavy beast is he bought himself and old ass 240sx with a 5 speed lol.

I'm not arguing on other people's choice on trans. I just want to get that clarified.

I'm making a point where people are trying to force their opinion and say it's a fact talking about a manual is more fun etc. No it's not. I have both, and i still prefer the auto.

[ky0u]

I love the MT in my 325 because its just a light, fun car in general and ripping through the gears is just a essential part of the driving experience in how i've got it set up

When I got my e92, i was planning to MT swap it as soon as possible but after owning it for some years, the desire kind of died because i mainly used it for cruising around and longer "touring" trips. I do miss the gears sometimes but other times im perfectly content cruising around in M mode as my XHP flash does make things more fun than the standard slushy AT mapping. I still want to do a trans swap but nowadays it's moreso a want for a DCT or ZF8. PLUS, I still have my MT fun car so I can still get the fix if i really need to

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

I have a model 3 coincidentally and i could NEVER go back to an ICE daily. It is by the far the BEST daily driver i have gotten in over 20 years.

Do you feel the weight of the batteries? My SO and I have been looking for an EV as a DD. And while the purpose of a DD isn't whipping it through the twisties, I do enjoy still hitting on ramps or canyon roads with a bit of "oomph" on occasion.

Something I've noticed on SUVs though is even if it's "light and nimble" feeling in straightline stop and go, you typically immediately feel the weight when changing directions with any sort of gusto. Do you feel this weight in the tesla?
(I know, its not exactly apples to apples, and a typical SUV is going to be vastly different to EVs in general in comparison due to the location of weight). Just curious if you still get that weird, "you're about to understeer!" feeling you get with heavier vehicles

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by ky0u

I love the MT in my 325 because its just a light, fun car in general and ripping through the gears is just a essential part of the driving experience in how i've got it set up

When I got my e92, i was planning to MT swap it as soon as possible but after owning it for some years, the desire kind of died because i mainly used it for cruising around and longer "touring" trips. I do miss the gears sometimes but other times im perfectly content cruising around in M mode as my XHP flash does make things more fun than the standard slushy AT mapping. I still want to do a trans swap but nowadays it's moreso a want for a DCT or ZF8. PLUS, I still have my MT fun car so I can still get the fix if i really need to



Do you feel the weight of the batteries? My SO and I have been looking for an EV as a DD. And while the purpose of a DD isn't whipping it through the twisties, I do enjoy still hitting on ramps or canyon roads with a bit of "oomph" on occasion.

Something I've noticed on SUVs though is even if it's "light and nimble" feeling in straightline stop and go, you typically immediately feel the weight when changing directions with any sort of gusto. Do you feel this weight in the tesla?
(I know, its not exactly apples to apples, and a typical SUV is going to be vastly different to EVs in general in comparison due to the location of weight). Just curious if you still get that weird, "you're about to understeer!" feeling you get with heavier vehicles

For me I keep the model 3 in FL. Not many twist and turns, however for the type of driving I do there, mostly straight highway and in town, it's awesome. Flooring it never gets old.

That being said I did bring it to NC once and drove it up the mountain. Not really into the back roads, but still pretty curvy mountain highway. Personally, I find the Cayenne more engaging in that circumstance than the model 3. The model 3 is planted and it's not like it has body roll or feels floaty or anything. It just doesn't have the feel the Cayenne does, plus I can at least paddle shift in the Cayenne... I still love it though. Also I'm not driving them to the point where understeer would even start to show up.

Now that's one time on one road so take that as you will.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by ky0u

Do you feel the weight of the batteries? My SO and I have been looking for an EV as a DD. And while the purpose of a DD isn't whipping it through the twisties, I do enjoy still hitting on ramps or canyon roads with a bit of "oomph" on occasion.

Something I've noticed on SUVs though is even if it's "light and nimble" feeling in straightline stop and go, you typically immediately feel the weight when changing directions with any sort of gusto. Do you feel this weight in the tesla?
(I know, its not exactly apples to apples, and a typical SUV is going to be vastly different to EVs in general in comparison due to the location of weight). Just curious if you still get that weird, "you're about to understeer!" feeling you get with heavier vehicles

That's the thing. People usually associate tesla, or any EV, as a one stop shop for cars. They're not there yet. I didn't get my model 3 to replace anything other than my daily. A daily driver EV is probably the best thing anyone can do.

Do i feel the weight of the car? I don't know. I don't take corners like that with this car. There's a purpose for every car, for different situations.

Same thing with anything in life. You wouldn't wear basketball shorts and basketball sneakers to a fancy dinner with the SO right? Same as you wouldn't wear a winter cologne when it's 100 degrees outside.

The tesla does one thing and one thing only perfect. A simple, quick, point and shoot car. Gets you from A to B perfectly.

The acceleration is addicting as most who get in a car like this will want to experience that first. I have acceleration boost in my car and it brings the 0-60 to around 3.7. But this is a consistent 3.7. Even with my SOC is low, around 40%, the car still rockets itself from a dig over and over.

The only reason why i said only way i'll go back to an ICE daily is if it's a powerful SUV meaning i had an SUV before my model 3. I miss sitting up high like that. I miss the visibility from high up.

If i had a trackhawk or an X5M i would totally go back to ICE. Because one, i'm addicted to V8's. And 2, having a V8 plus sitting up high again? Now that i could go back to ICE for. In a daily at least.

But because i'm not out acting like a hooligan with the model 3, the commute monday-friday with this car is heaven. ANd i literally beat anyone from a light with this car, to about 80-90 or so until it starts to die off.

[ky0u]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

That's the thing. People usually associate tesla, or any EV, as a one stop shop for cars. They're not there yet. I didn't get my model 3 to replace anything other than my daily. A daily driver EV is probably the best thing anyone can do.

Do i feel the weight of the car? I don't know. I don't take corners like that with this car. There's a purpose for every car, for different situations.

Same thing with anything in life. You wouldn't wear basketball shorts and basketball sneakers to a fancy dinner with the SO right? Same as you wouldn't wear a winter cologne when it's 100 degrees outside.

The tesla does one thing and one thing only perfect. A simple, quick, point and shoot car. Gets you from A to B perfectly.

My word choice may have been a bit more aggressive than I intended. When i said "spirited" in a DD, I didn't mean hooning in the backroads like I might in the bimmers. That would completely miss the poiint of getting this type of car. I fully intend this to be a car for something like an errands trip or something with lots of stop around town.

For example, there's a heavily (and properly) banked S-curve near me that has a pointlessly low speed limit that my cars could probably hit at twice the posted limit without breaking a sweat. I once took it at not even 10 over in a Q5 and while it still went without any issues, you suddenly became aware of the weight of the car. It's hard to explain, it's not like the car even swayed, but as you turned, you know it's there. And you could tell if you ever pushed the car in this situation, the front would definitely give out. It's not just SUVs, certain cars do this too, usually the heavier or awkwardly weighted ones. I was curious if the Tesla is prone to the same behaviour or if it's different since the weight placement is super low on them.

[shawnhayes]

The MINUTE my GT-R obliterated any pre-conceived notions about "auto-shifting" on track, and was able to shift at FULL SPEED under FULL THROTTLE in the middle of a turn in 2009 on a track, was the minute I forgot about a manual car EVER winning a speed competition again. In a drag race, on a track, just about anywhere.

My M5 shares this characteristic on track, despite it's a slushbox and not a DCT.

For fun, with a cheap car that I don't really wanna go fast in, and my fat ass is still nimble enough to wrestle a transmission off the engine in my garage, sure.

But for a daily driver, or my track car? No way. DCT's and full autos rule the day. Faster for the previous, and now long term reliable for the latter.

Shawn

[HNSKP]

No doubt EVs and auto/DCT cars offer better performance, and I totally understand the appeal of bragging rights, but what's the end goal exactly? Beating the SUV beside you to the next stoplight? Going for the overall record at your local track?

For me, and I imagine for many manual enthusiasts as well, the joys come from challenging myself to perfectly execute that clutch slip at launch or heel-toe into the next bend. The mind finds pleasure and satisfaction in pushing one's own limits, even if that comes at a slightly lower performance envelope.

With an auto/DCT, this step is automated to perfection. To get the same thrills, you may find yourself reaching a higher speed, going hotter into a corner, or braking later, thereby adding extra risk to achieve the same result. For canyon carving (my preferred type of driving), this drastically increases the risk of going off and totalling the car.

This is simply my justification for always keeping a manual in my garage. To each their own. There will certainly be room for an EV family car in the next few years since it checks all the requisite boxes: low NVH, instant torque, lower CoG, better interior packaging.

[G80indy]

Yes sir! Every drive out is a fun challenge!
Here in Carmel Indiana we have more roundabouts per capita than anywhere in the country, so you can imagine how fun it is to shift around here.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by ky0u

My word choice may have been a bit more aggressive than I intended. When i said "spirited" in a DD, I didn't mean hooning in the backroads like I might in the bimmers. That would completely miss the poiint of getting this type of car. I fully intend this to be a car for something like an errands trip or something with lots of stop around town.

I don't know how you treat or drive your dailys but my daily is a daily only. Every daily i had in the past strictly gets used monday-friday as i have other cars and a motorcycle (during warm months) to use. My tesla for what i use it for is PERFECT. I don't even use the car on the weekend. I either charge it at home using my slow ass 120V lol. Or i leave it parked at the GF's house where she has level 2 charging. Plus she likes that car more than any other car i own so sometimes she uses it as well. That's why she wants one of her own.

Doing errands with this car is the best. You get in and you go. Imagine sitting at lights, or in drive thru's and you have your cars fucking hot ass heat radiating and reaching into your window? I get none of that in the model 3 obviously. Sometimes i would feel bad for my car in summertime with my ICE dailys idling in a lot somewhere in 100 degree weather with the AC blasting because i was eating something, or on a conference call etc.

Those problems are no more when you're in an EV.

For example, there's a heavily (and properly) banked S-curve near me that has a pointlessly low speed limit that my cars could probably hit at twice the posted limit without breaking a sweat. I once took it at not even 10 over in a Q5 and while it still went without any issues, you suddenly became aware of the weight of the car. It's hard to explain, it's not like the car even swayed, but as you turned, you know it's there. And you could tell if you ever pushed the car in this situation, the front would definitely give out. It's not just SUVs, certain cars do this too, usually the heavier or awkwardly weighted ones. I was curious if the Tesla is prone to the same behaviour or if it's different since the weight placement is super low on them.

I'm sure if you took a curve or 2 you'll be fine. But for a track day or purposely taking this car out for twisties and i don't think it'll work.

My car came with shitty all seasons and i'm sure that tire was designed for the best rolling resistance for max range. I didn't even take off my hub caps off my wheels even though the actual wheel is really nice because i want max range lol. In case i can't charge the car at the GF or go to a supercharger.

If you put a decent tire on the car, i can't see why you couldn't have a bit of fun from time to time. Just know that this isn't the car for that job. Even if you got the performance with better suspension and better brakes? i'm sure those consumables would be hell at a track day.

You just have to know the purpose you're getting this car for.

A very quick point and shoot car with great tech, simplicity and insane acceleration? The model 3 long range/performance is the one for you. If you need a bigger car get the model Y long range/performance.

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by HNSKP

No doubt EVs and auto/DCT cars offer better performance, and I totally understand the appeal of bragging rights, but what's the end goal exactly? Beating the SUV beside you to the next stoplight? Going for the overall record at your local track?

For me, and I imagine for many manual enthusiasts as well, the joys come from challenging myself to perfectly execute that clutch slip at launch or heel-toe into the next bend. The mind finds pleasure and satisfaction in pushing one's own limits, even if that comes at a slightly lower performance envelope.

With an auto/DCT, this step is automated to perfection. To get the same thrills, you may find yourself reaching a higher speed, going hotter into a corner, or braking later, thereby adding extra risk to achieve the same result. For canyon carving (my preferred type of driving), this drastically increases the risk of going off and totalling the car.

This is simply my justification for always keeping a manual in my garage. To each their own. There will certainly be room for an EV family car in the next few years since it checks all the requisite boxes: low NVH, instant torque, lower CoG, better interior packaging.

This fits with my thoughts above. But, then, the manual car should be a small, cheap, slow car where the fun is maximized, and risk is low. (Miata, 86, BRZ, etc. etc.).

Other than if you can only have ONE car. If you only get ONE, well, that's different. Compromises to be made....

Shawn

[HNSKP]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

This fits with my thoughts above. But, then, the manual car should be a small, cheap, slow car where the fun is maximized, and risk is low. (Miata, 86, BRZ, etc. etc.).

Other than if you can only have ONE car. If you only get ONE, well, that's different. Compromises to be made....

Shawn

I DD'ed an FRS for 5 years and it was great. More memorable than my current G80. I plan to get into a GR86 at some point.

Yes, compromises can throw a wrench in things.

[Theruleslawyer]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

My friend tracks his hellcat. And he loved the experience so much but hated all the money he is wasting on tires and brakes for that heavy beast is he bought himself and old ass 240sx with a 5 speed lol.

If I had room and a trailer I'd go get me a used spec miata and call it a day. It would be nice to use tiny cheap tires and brakes. I love my f82, but the consumables are not cheap.

[BMWCCA1]

What I read here supports my assumption that those who prefer automatics have daily drives that require appliances. On the contrary, those of us who wouldn't think of owning an automatic have commutes and errands where we can enjoy the drive. I often make mundane shopping interesting in my 128i M-sport 6-speed by taking the long way to farms to purchase local produce. Even my daily drive to work is therapeutic instead of a chore with my perfectly balanced small BMW. And, yes, we do have an automatic in the family to compare as my wife has an arthritic left knee and prefers not to have a clutch. Whenever I drive her E90 sport, I prefer to operate it in the sport-shift mode, and not even always in full "manual". And, of course, I drive new BMWs every day in my work. But, again, I have made the life-style choice to live where I do and sacrifice potential earnings over the past 50-years in favor of quality of life—every day. And that includes shifting for myself.

And when my wife's E90 spent a couple of days in the shop recently, she enjoyed her short stint in our 1985 535i stick. It's always good to go back to your roots occasionally.

Believe me, many of my customers expressed relief to learn that the new M2 would come as a rear-drive-only with manual transmission as standard. Not everyone is a two-pedal zealot with cognitive dissonance.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Theruleslawyer

If I had room and a trailer I'd go get me a used spec miata and call it a day. It would be nice to use tiny cheap tires and brakes. I love my f82, but the consumables are not cheap.

I would love to do track days. But not in any of my current cars lol.

But I think even then I wouldn’t want a manual. Or maybe it depends on the car. I guess as I learn certain tracks then once I become decent I’ll get a proper auto performance car.