Formula 1 cost cap breach

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I think, speaking in generalities the driver is usually at least 50% of the equation, maybe 60-70% at most because the car still needs to be quick and capable. I would say last year, Max’s level was likely that of 70% as he drove the heck out of that car. This year, I think the car is a bit better and he is maybe only 60%.
As for Alonso in the Alpine, likely at the higher end since that car is able to give H all sorts of trouble if Alonso wants.
Now the MB this year is quite fast as Rus has shown it can be (though many placements have had DNF luck for him). Ham, I think his MB during the initial hybrid eta was likely 70% car - and I say this because Rus just got in one day and if not for a puncture would have won with relative ease. You put Max in that MB and he would I think have wiped the floor with Ham every year. Ham is a good driver but his overinflated stats are akin to Mark McGuire or Barry Bonds to me.

Sure .I couldn't agree more !

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Ham, I think his MB during the initial hybrid eta was likely 70% car - and I say this because Rus just got in one day and if not for a puncture would have won with relative ease. You put Max in that MB and he would I think have wiped the floor with Ham every year. Ham is a good driver but his overinflated stats are akin to Mark McGuire or Barry Bonds to me.

Nico could have easily won those championships if Ham had been the one who left F1. Nico was just as quick in that car. Merc was simply unstoppable. That early Merc hybrid engine was so strong it even made a mid-pack contender out of Williams, Bottas made his name driving that setup.

[lens]

Originally Posted by M3WC

Nico could have easily won those championships if Ham had been the one who left F1. Nico was just as quick in that car. Merc was simply unstoppable. That early Merc hybrid engine was so strong it even made a mid-pack contender out of Williams, Bottas made his name driving that setup.

Rosberg??! The man who beat Lewis in equal machinery??!

[M5Rick]

Horner has ridiculed Wolff for his childish and unsportsmanlike behaviour.
Link here
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/14628...ighten-up.html

[3798j]

"FIA must come down hard on RedBull"...
https://www.planetf1.com/news/fia-re...p-dq-not-fair/

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by 3798j

"FIA must come down hard on RedBull"...
https://www.planetf1.com/news/fia-re...p-dq-not-fair/

Keep on dreaming mate ...

[MontyB1]

F1 politics in full flow. Yesterday Zak B, today not unsurprisingly its Toto having his say. I mean wouldn't you do the same, if its all proven that they have overspent and they give a little slap on the wrists it will open the flood gates won't it. The top teams have WAY more money to spend via sponsorship than the cost cap allows them to spend. If they can do loads of development or updates and its only going to cost them a few million then game on as far as they are concerned.

Mercedes will break rules in case of lenient penalty for Red Bull

Over to you FIA

[MontyB1]

Originally Posted by 3798j

"FIA must come down hard on RedBull"...
https://www.planetf1.com/news/fia-re...p-dq-not-fair/

Its an interesting article and all of this could be have been avoided with RBR maybe asking some clarification questions I'd suggest. For anyone who has ever done a financial audit with the big 4 the view of your own finance team and them often differs on how things have been accounted for and they aren't always right either; but sometimes they are and painful adjustments to accounts need to be made, its madly complex but that is why the accountants get the pennies.

So in a complex environment of RBR Finance view and sign off with EY the FIA and Delotte then also looking over accounts it can and will get very complex, but all the other teams have managed it with only two others having late or procedure issues already sorted. As mentioned before EY can quite rightly sign off accounts that meet the accounting standard but when reviewed in the cost cap sense of what is in and out the lines will blur. If Adrian is the bone of contention then it could be argued if he is being paid as an expensive consultant then he isn't an employee he is a supplier providing services to many different divisions, he could still be doing some work for AMR on the only hypercar, no idea. As such he wouldn't be able to be called as one of the top 3 paid.

Christian gets circa £5m from one of the companies, Helmet might be £2m from the looks of it and the CFO gets £300k from my brief look at the directors but for one reason or another despite his seniority Adrian doesn't appear to be a director. The reason the above is hard to see what's what is some companies only this three directors Helmut, CH and DM so when it says one gets £2m its hard to know which.

They are also operating across 6 different companies again further complicating things and arguable its then also easier to apportion costs away from F1 into other business. Could I for example pay someone as working not the new engines business but they are actually doing core F1 design and analysis work, course you could, is that fraud as per the comment from RB, maybe. But OMG it would be hard to find and prove but those teams with complex structures and separate engine business 'could' do this in theory.

Oh and now a few weeks post requirement to publish accounts in the UK, RBR, Advanced and Powertrain et al still haven't filed...!

[lens]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

F1 politics in full flow. Yesterday Zak B, today not unsurprisingly its Toto having his say. I mean wouldn't you do the same, if its all proven that they have overspent and they give a little slap on the wrists it will open the flood gates won't it. The top teams have WAY more money to spend via sponsorship than the cost cap allows them to spend. If they can do loads of development or updates and its only going to cost them a few million then game on as far as they are concerned.

Mercedes will break rules in case of lenient penalty for Red Bull

Over to you FIA

That's not how it works thought, Mercedes can say that, but the FIA will punish them more severely.

The cost cap came in effect last year for the first time, any team that minor breaches (whether through loopholes or whatever) will get a slap on the wrist, and that loophole closed. The next time it happens again, it will be more severe as FIA will have changed the rules.

Like any new rules, it comes down to interpretation and finding those grey areas (which the FIA will expect) so they can improve on that rule.


Plus, since RB only went over cap spending on food or whatever and not car development, they'll be fine. FIA will slap them with a fine and add more description to the rule stating what can and cannot be included, and any future cost cap breaches will result in DSQ or point reduction.


This is just the case of Mercedes being unbelievably salty as they can't throw unlimited money at their problems anymore, and having fucked up their car design (which they could've fixed by throwing money at it pre-cost cap)

[3798j]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Keep on dreaming mate ...

...and you just keep your head buried in the sand.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Keep on dreaming mate ...

I think if RB get a fine then R ao must be sacked for passing information onto a third party. Someone said RB have not passed on their '21 a/c's as yet so I think the gov body can't do anything until it's officialy with tax?
It may drag on for ever and it's a 'small' fine (for them) every month if you delay tax return and may actually be swept under the carpet.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by 3798j

...and you just keep your head buried in the sand.

Why would we do something like that ?

Our heads are up and very proud that MAX ended the HAM/Mercedes dominance forever .
With still 4 races to go , we couldn't be happier that MAX is already the 2021/2022 F1 World Champion again .

But ...We can feel your pain

And mate , I'll say it again : "This is only the beginning" !

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Horner has ridiculed Wolff for his childish and unsportsmanlike behaviour.
Link here
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/14628...ighten-up.html

I don't think it's wise of Horner to talk about this stuff.
It's very speculative (Horner can't possibly know if Toto manages his anger also on other people), but also why say something like this.
I mean if other people talk speculative about your team's performance or organisation, you've already won the argument.
This is all a matter between RB and the FIA. Mercedes has nothing to do with it.
Why is Toto shouting all these things in the media?
Because he's behind. Because he's loosing the battle on track.
Nobody cares about what Aston martin is doing, how late they are with their reports or how much they overspent. Of course the FIA cares, but Toto doesn't. Because he's not loosing from Aston martin.
If your competitor starts talking trash about you, it means they are loosing and they know it.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by 3798j

"FIA must come down hard on RedBull"...
https://www.planetf1.com/news/fia-re...p-dq-not-fair/

PlanetF1 is one of the tabloid F1 rags.

They were one of the outfits parroting RB $10mill of overages.

That place is clickbait central.

[3798j]

Originally Posted by M3WC

PlanetF1 is one of the tabloid F1 rags.

They were one of the outfits parroting RB $10mill of overages.

That place is clickbait central.

Must disagree.
From their website:

What we do

PlanetF1 is an independent driving force for fans of F1.

We publish Formula One news and features every day and invite readers to add their comments and opinions to each article. F1 fans have more opportunity to discuss their favourite sport in the PlanetF1 Forum.

At race weekends, we provide live F1 coverage throughout each practice session and the race, including live commentary, grid positions and F1 leaderboard.

Plus we provide latest F1 driver standings, the F1 race schedule, F1 driver profiles, F1 team profiles, F1 track descriptions and the occasional F1 quiz.

[3798j]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Why would we do something like that ?

Our heads are up and very proud that MAX ended the HAM/Mercedes dominance forever .
With still 4 races to go , we couldn't be happier that MAX is already the 2021/2022 F1 World Champion again .

Fine, but Max isn't responsible for the problem that RBR has....and that is what you are ignoring. It's not going away and most can see that.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by 3798j

It's not going away and most can see that.

But the FIA will never change the WDC points for this matter.
This is a team matter and not a drivers matter, so if push comes to shove and violations are acertained of such a nature that fines are not enough to solve the matter, the FIA will deduct WCC points but not WDC points.
I mean look at the 2007 McLaren espionage scandel, arguably the biggest scandal in the history of F1; even there the drivers were in the end allowed to keep the WDC points.
A driver only looses his points if the driver himself is taking some kind of action on his own behalf where he can profit from (like what Michael Schumacher once did)
So RB could only potentionally loose points in the WCC which no one really cares about and they might get less money from the FIA, which a top team also doesn't care about because all the top teams have more money than they're allowed to spend.

[3798j]

This is getting ridiculous. The first sentence in the PlanetF1 article I linked says: FIA must come down hard on Red Bull, but championship DQ is unfair.
From there people have gone defensive on whether MAX keeps his title or not...with some pretty stupid comments. My belief...he's going to keep it.
Every additional day that there's silence from the FIA should concern any RBR fan. Those that say they're not concerned truly baffle me. The penalty could be sizeable (or not) but it's another blemish on their 2021 season.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by 3798j

Every additional day that there's silence from the FIA should concern any RBR fan.

Why?
Is there also a deadline for the FIA to vent their opinion and verdict on the situation at hand?

Taking their time means to me that it will probably be a well balanced and thought of conclusion.
I don't think any RB fan is really that concerned.
Max won last year, they're not gonna change that. And he won this year too. They're not gonna change that either.
I think most RB fans are already thinking about next year. Looking foreward is much more interesting.

To me there is no real blemish on RB's 2021 season. I think you mean that there may be a blemish on the FIA's 2021 season.
RB just put the cars on the track and Max and Checo drove them. Who won or loose is not something RB determines, the FIA is the referee. Like always.
There are always people who disagree, with Michael Masi in this case.. Time will forget them. Just like everyone forgot Jean-Marie

[3798j]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Why?
Is there also a deadline for the FIA to vent their opinion and verdict on the situation at hand?

Taking their time means to me that it will probably be a well balanced and thought of conclusion.
I don't think any RB fan is really that concerned.
Max won last year, they're not gonna change that. And he won this year too. They're not gonna change that either.
I think most RB fans are already thinking about next year. Looking foreward is much more interesting.

This surprises. I would have thought that their fans would have great concern.
No deadline that I know of. The leak, followed by the postponement of announcing, followed by an announcement with few facts followed by nothing seems ominous. Even RBR is silent because there is nothing to appeal...still think they should take the ABA and move on.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by 3798j

still think they should take the ABA and move on.

Has the FIA offered?
What's in it?

[3798j]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Has the FIA offered?
What's in it?

Obvious that we can't be sure it was offered but it's probable that it will be.

"The advantage of an ABA would mean that no points could be deducted by the FIA, nor can the team's budget for the future be reduced as a penalty.
The team could still be banned from one or more sessions, including a testing or qualifying session, allocated less aerodynamic time in their wind tunnel, or receive a public reprimand."