Official Tesla Talk Thread **No Politics**

[jmg]

Originally Posted by smyles

First, I'm not sure how exactly BMW arranges that, since we're talking about individual income tax credit vs. corporate entities. In simple terms, not every lessee's income is eligible to full or partial credit, yet BMW collects full amount every time (not to mention you have to own the vehicle, which lessee don't)?

I'm not sure how exactly either, but I don't think the IRS cares if BMWFS or the owner gets the credit, so long as they BOTH don't get the credit.

Originally Posted by smyles

Second, and this can be related to the above, there many other tax & credit stipulations (CARB, state, etc.) for car manufacturers, so they have to manipulate their EV/plugin stock and sales to maximize benefits (and minimize costs). I suspect BMW collect those, but claims 'we're passing saving to you', which technically is misleading.

No, BMW cannot get state rebates because it is a direct check to the registered owne. On the registration, the leaser is still the owner, with BMWFS only listed as the leasing company. Unlike renting an apartment, the car leaser has rights under conditional "ownership" (the right to sell or buy, the right to tax credits and rebates etc).

My leasing contracts clearly stated cap cost and reductions. I know exactly what the selling price is and residual value based on MSRP. I collected an additional $3500 in state and energy and BMWCCA post sale rebates after taking possession of the car. Trunk money is the dealer's business and if they gave me less than 10% off I would be suspicious, but all three of my i3's had 11-12.5% off MSRP on top of the federal credit and lease incentives. My monthly payments for 12k/36 months were all under $200 after tax and this was an effective $0 down after the $3500 in post sale rebates.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Well, maybe a multi-celled organism who went by the name of Edison...

My point was if you follow the original line of thinking in the quoted post you would eventually end up with an ameba or something. I'm sure many people had to invent/discover many things to enable Edison to bring us electricity to our homes and those people relied on discoveries of people before them etc etc all down the line.

[smyles]

Originally Posted by jmg

No, BMW cannot get state rebates because it is a direct check to the registered owne. On the registration, the leaser is still the owner, with BMWFS only listed as the leasing company. Unlike renting an apartment, the car leaser has rights under conditional "ownership" (the right to sell or buy, the right to tax credits and rebates etc).

My leasing contracts clearly stated cap cost and reductions. I know exactly what the selling price is and residual value based on MSRP...

It's been a while since I leased, plus you're in CA, so who knows how things are done there, but usually registration isn't a sign (or proof) of ownership. It's just that, a registration. Residuals and other numbers are in any leasing contract, that's what defines your monthly and final (if any) payments.

[Fly320s]

Originally Posted by jmg

Actually, BMW will pass an instant rebate of $7500 to the buyer/leaser and collect the tax rebate themselves. It sells more cars that way. I've had three i3's with $9.5k in rebates each ($7500 fed, $2000 factory). Saved quite a bit of $ leasing an EV for my daily driver.

However, some other manufacturers like Kia don't pass this on if you lease, only if you purchase. Boooo!

Didn't know BMW did that. I think I like that way better.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by smyles

It's been a while since I leased, plus you're in CA, so who knows how things are done there, but usually registration isn't a sign (or proof) of ownership. It's just that, a registration.

The CSE deems the "registered owner" aka the driver, the one who pays the lease, who's name is on the registration as the recipient of the CVRP. Its purpose is create an incentive for the customer. It does not go to the leasing company.

Originally Posted by smyles

Residuals and other numbers are in any leasing contract, that's what defines your monthly and final (if any) payments.

Rebates and incentives, are in section 9.B.2 under "Rebates and Noncash Credits". The lease contract is very transparent if you know how to read it. There is no misleading as far as rebates and incentives, it's all there on the contract. Trunk money, aka money going to the dealer from BMWNA or BMWFS is to help move inventory which isn't always passed on to the customer, but with how many BMWs I've owned and the relationship I have with the dealer, they give enough of a discount to be beneficial to both parties.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Fly320s

When you do your taxes for 2020, you get to take $7,500 off what you owe the IRS. If you owe less than $7,500 you won't get a refund, though.

I never seem to have trouble owing the government a lot of money so I'm probably good

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Haven't you heard? Per the fanboys Tesla isn't a car company. They're a technology company. Sheeesh <sarcasm>

The semantics differentiate for investors whether one should analyze TSLA as a growth company or a value company.

Samsung, for example, usually gets analyzed as value company even though they make tons of tech vs Apple who's analyzed as a growth company even though they make tons of phones and tablets.

I think TSLA's stock price makes it pretty obvious that it's not just Tesla fanbois who consider TSLA a tech/growth company.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by smyles

First, I'm not sure how exactly BMW arranges that, since we're talking about individual income tax credit vs. corporate entities. In simple terms, not every lessee's income is eligible to full or partial credit, yet BMW collects full amount every time (not to mention you have to own the vehicle, which lessee don't)?

Second, and this can be related to the above, there many other tax & credit stipulations (CARB, state, etc.) for car manufacturers, so they have to manipulate their EV/plugin stock and sales to maximize benefits (and minimize costs). I suspect BMW collect those, but claims 'we're passing saving to you', which technically is misleading.

Yeah, all this ... my understanding is:

(1.) This is FEDERAL credit, not a state credit (BMW dealerships have more room there)

(2.) It's not a blanket $7500 - the amount varies with the car

(3.) The credit is only avail for automakers who've sold <200k ev cars, i.e., Tesla is no longer eligible and hasn't been since 2018

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Yeah, all this ... my understanding is:

(1.) This is FEDERAL credit, not a state credit (BMW dealerships have more room there)

(2.) It's not a blanket $7500 - the amount varies with the car

(3.) The credit is only avail for automakers who've sold <200k ev cars, i.e., Tesla is no longer eligible and hasn't been since 2018

There are state EV credits.

https://www.tesla.com/support/incentives

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Haven't you heard? Per the fanboys Tesla isn't a car company. They're a technology company. Sheeesh <sarcasm>

Hey, real quick for fun, let's break down TSLA's growth price:

So today they'd be $2,375 pre-split, so let's use that ... just spitballin

CURRENT REVENUE (aggressive estimates, includes expansion)
• $300/sh for autos, i'm being aggressive
• $100/sh for future vehicles (e.g., truck, roadster, etc)
• $50/sh for software (e.g., autopilot)
• $50/sh for services (e.g., maintenance, repairs)
• $100/sh for consumer energy (e.g., solar, powerwall, chargers)
• $50/sh for industrial energy (e.g., megapack)
• $50/sh for financial services (e.g., loans, leasing, insurance)
• $10/sh for regulatory credits (e.g., B2B sales to non-compliant automakers)

FUTURE (aggressive estimates, doesn't include dreamer stuff)
• $200/sh for B2B automaker sales (e.g., B2B tech sales: batteries, tech, etc)
• $100/sh for V2G (e.g., selling supercharger storage to utilities)

That gets me to $1010 / share ... and those napkin estimates are pretty generous.

Yup, TSLA overpriced.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

There are state EV credits.

https://www.tesla.com/support/incentives

Right - I was just following from my original post about the BMW X5 45e, which is still eligible for a $7500 federal tax credit ... which, to my understanding, is based on one's personal income (i.e., what you owe in federal taxes) and so wouldn't be rebateable by BMWFS (I could be very wrong though - taxes never make sense - maybe Run Silent can give us his advice?).

This is key for me, because in my personal case I'm NOT eligible for the state credit but AM eligible for the federal credit if I buy before BMW gets to 200,000 in EV sales.
Though, someone had posted they got a tax rebate check on that federal credit - my supposition is that the check was actually state credit, not the federal credit, but

Further, those federal credits are only good for automakers who've made < 200k eligible vehicles, after that no more federal credit

[Fly320s]

This is the official word on the tax credit: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxevb.shtml

[vreihen16]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

But did you get a refund of what you already paid through withholding or estimated tax payments, or have total tax of less than $7,500? The "not getting a check back" may apply only to the latter. Not sure.

We owed $2.0K before the credit, and received a $5.5K refund after adding it to our 2019 return.....

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Fly320s

This is the official word on the tax credit: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxevb.shtml

Yeah, I think this is the key line:

Can I claim the credit for a leased vehicle?
If a qualifying vehicle is leased to a consumer, the leasing company may claim the credit.

That means BMWFS can claim the federal tax credit on leased vehicles

Makes me wonder if there's a negotiation benefit in agreeing to lease (or not) and/or agreeing to finance because the dealership gets a cut (even if you pay off the balance after the deal is signed)

[jmg]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Right - I was just following from my original post about the BMW X5 45e, which is still eligible for a $7500 federal tax credit ... which, to my understanding, is based on one's personal income (i.e., what you owe in federal taxes) and so wouldn't be rebateable by BMWFS (I could be very wrong though - taxes never make sense - maybe Run Silent can give us his advice?).

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Yeah, I think this is the key line:

Can I claim the credit for a leased vehicle?
If a qualifying vehicle is leased to a consumer, the leasing company may claim the credit.

That means BMWFS can claim the federal tax credit on leased vehicles

Yes, in a lease they can claim the credit, and they do. However, they pass that on the consumer as a cap reduction to boost sales. In fact, Hyundai and Kia claims it themselves and don't pass on the credit as cap reduction like BMW does. To clarify, $7500 does not show up as a fed tax credit rebate on lease contract, it is simply a cap reduction. So your income or your tax liability would not come into play.

Originally Posted by GrussGott

This is key for me, because in my personal case I'm NOT eligible for the state credit but AM eligible for the federal credit if I buy before BMW gets to 200,000 in EV sales.

The CA state rebate only looks at personal gross income. As a business owner I was able to get around this because of income splitting. They do not look at corporate income and the car is under my personal account

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Though, someone had posted they got a tax rebate check on that federal credit - my supposition is that the check was actually state credit, not the federal credit, but

Were you thinking of me? I got the check for the state credit.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Yeah, I think this is the key line:

Can I claim the credit for a leased vehicle?
If a qualifying vehicle is leased to a consumer, the leasing company may claim the credit.

That means BMWFS can claim the federal tax credit on leased vehicles

Makes me wonder if there's a negotiation benefit in agreeing to lease (or not) and/or agreeing to finance because the dealership gets a cut (even if you pay off the balance after the deal is signed)

This happens in the world of solar panels as well. The owner of the equipment (ex Solar City) gets the credit. It's also explicitly stated in many of the contracts

[Fly320s]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

This happens in the world of solar panels as well. The owner of the equipment (ex Solar City) gets the credit. It's also explicitly stated in many of the contracts

Which is why we bought our panels, instead of leasing them.

[Run Silent]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Right - I was just following from my original post about the BMW X5 45e, which is still eligible for a $7500 federal tax credit ... which, to my understanding, is based on one's personal income (i.e., what you owe in federal taxes) and so wouldn't be rebateable by BMWFS (I could be very wrong though - taxes never make sense - maybe Run Silent can give us his advice?).

This is key for me, because in my personal case I'm NOT eligible for the state credit but AM eligible for the federal credit if I buy before BMW gets to 200,000 in EV sales.
Though, someone had posted they got a tax rebate check on that federal credit - my supposition is that the check was actually state credit, not the federal credit, but

Further, those federal credits are only good for automakers who've made < 200k eligible vehicles, after that no more federal credit

JMG is correct - one of the best and easiest ways is to allow the dealer to take the tax credit and then utilize a cap cost reduction on the lease to, in effect, pass this to the consumer. This not only eliminates any income limitations to the buyer/lessee, but also alleviates any headaches or paperwork nightmares that the customer has to deal with as it comes to trying to collect money from the government, lol.

Electric cars have come down in price substantially - but with ability to take full advantage of governmental subsidies, in some cases, they have become absolute bargins.

[smyles]

To be fair, claiming Fed credit requires nothing more than checking a box and entering VIN in your tax form, so not much "headaches or paperwork nightmare".
BTDT.

[GrussGott]

Anybody gonna dunk on TSLA's huge drop? Here's your chance!

[jmg]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Anybody gonna dunk on TSLA's huge drop? Here's your chance!

My jaw dropped and I seriously thought something was wrong with my phone despite the split. Time to buy?

[Joekerr]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Anybody gonna dunk on TSLA's huge drop? Here's your chance!

Not sure it is "huge" enough to be honest...battery day could be interesting though? Its been lower. Sometimes I kick myself for not directing some money there, other times I don't. If anything, I'm tempted on call options, but I don't understand calls well enough to invest.

When I look at the option chain on yahoo, some bid prices on various calls just don't make sense vs others and I don't understand why that's happening...which makes me believe I don't understand calls at all. Despite on the surface it seems relatively simple - an option to purchase 100 shares at X exercise price by Y date. And the option costs Z to do so. But certain options that look very similar in terms of exercise price and dates have wildly different bid amounts and I don't understand why. Unless it has to do with number of shares in the contract.