Oil analysis/choice discussion

[RagtagXMASTER]

Originally Posted by LJohnson32

In sport plus drivetrain mode, what do your temps usually look like with the 5W-50? With the Liqui-Moly Molygen 5W-40, temps stay around 195 +/- 5 degrees, which I have been pretty happy with as far as thermal management is concerned

coolant temp for me stays around 180-190F, oil temps stay between 200-220F on a nice day if its 70-80F ambient. currently if its the 65F ambient I get about 195-200F for oil temps

[chrisveal]

I have been looking into swapping oils. I recently had BMW do a oil consumption test and it is with spec but goes through about a later every 1300km. It's crazy.
I noticed most everyone goes to a thicker oil 5w-40 and 5w50 etc, I was looking at Castrol Edge website and noticed they do an oil that is 10w-60 which seems way to think but it does say that it is suitable for all BMW M-Models.
Has anyone tried this?
https://www.castrol.com/en_au/austra...-supercar.html

[RagtagXMASTER]

Originally Posted by chrisveal

I have been looking into swapping oils. I recently had BMW do a oil consumption test and it is with spec but goes through about a later every 1300km. It's crazy.
I noticed most everyone goes to a thicker oil 5w-40 and 5w50 etc, I was looking at Castrol Edge website and noticed they do an oil that is 10w-60 which seems way to think but it does say that it is suitable for all BMW M-Models.
Has anyone tried this?
https://www.castrol.com/en_au/austra...-supercar.html

I'd say the 10-60 is too thick on these engines, it was used on the previous generation M3/5/6, with the S65 and S85 engines. I wouldn't go much further than the 50 weight on the s63tu engine.

also that's a lot of oil consumption at 1300km. you can try and step up your oil grade and it should help, but that's pretty ugly. that shouldn't be ok, but BMW will say its probably ok even if it was blowing smoke out the back

[chrisveal]

Originally Posted by RagtagXMASTER

I'd say the 10-60 is too thick on these engines, it was used on the previous generation M3/5/6, with the S65 and S85 engines. I wouldn't go much further than the 50 weight on the s63tu engine.

also that's a lot of oil consumption at 1300km. you can try and step up your oil grade and it should help, but that's pretty ugly. that shouldn't be ok, but BMW will say its probably ok even if it was blowing smoke out the back

It is a lot, apparently this is an acceptable amount of consumption. I jokingly said BMW should of put an oil cap next to the fuel cap so every 3rd or 4th tank I could top the oil off. They didn't;t think it was as funny as I did. I have changed to Castol Edge 5W-40 and see how this goes.

I thought that oil seemed a little on the thick side, thanks for your reply, much appreciated.

[MelbourneFinn]

Ok, I'd be keen to hear thoughts if anyone has fact based knowledge… Have had oil analysis 2 times at appr 4-5k miles intervals, currently the car has 28k kms, or appr 17k miles on it. No oil consumption, always used BMW recommended oil, I think on Australian markets it's likely Castrol, 10W-40.

The analysis has come back both times great, except for one thing - fuel dilution. Both times 3%, which according to the oil lab is well over acceptable level, both times they recommended checking injectors. So, I've taken these results back to the dealer seeking for their resolution, the first analysis was well before warranty expiry. The dealer, apparently based on BMW Australia advice, put the results into the basket of "bad driver profile", likely due to lots of short distance driving.

Moved to a new area, this changed my driving habits significantly, ie. no short distance anymore, nearly all Highway and longer distance. This was majority of the use leading up to the second oil analysis, after which the second dealership (local here) suggested that to eliminate the lab mistake, we would take a new sample and they send it to the lab they use - I guess fair enough… Now, appr. 3-4K miles after the oil change I suggested to the dealer it might be an opportune time for this. The next bit sounds a bit surprising, so thought I would seek opinions… According to the dealer, BMW Australia had advised them that the threshold to "warn" the customer is ~7% fueldilution, and at 10% the oil would be considered as contaminated…!!! They also suggested waiting until the recommended oil change mileage, which I think would be something like +15k miles - not going to happen…

So, my suspicion is that a new analysis would come back with appr. the same 3% fuel dilution, but if the manufacturer/importer's definition of "too high fuel dilution" is 7-10%, I'm assuming the outcome would be "no result"…

So, the question I suppose is "how bad is 3% fuel dilution"? Anyone with fact based data on this - thoughts much appreciated…

[Kamate]

That’s a bunch of horse shit at 7%. I just had my injectors recall and the dealer replaced all of them. 3% is high, I would imagine your car will get worst over time, not magically better so either change your oil earlier or find out the root of the problem before you ended up with a rod sticking out of your block.

[RagtagXMASTER]

fuel dilution will increase the chances of lspi. it emulsifies the oil and with higher percentages of fuel in your oil, you will more likely have detonation events on the sidewall of the piston. that will lead to a blown motor since most likely it will break off the top of the piston.

most likely you have an injector that is leaking down through the cylinders and because BMW does not want to replace it they create BS stories on what is acceptable.

have the injectors replaced before significant damage occurs. a good/normal dilution should be less than 0.5 percent

[RagtagXMASTER]

just a quick update to this, got another report on redline 5w-50 at about the 4500 mile interval and the oil is doing very well. it looks like the oil can really handle the heat of the motor

[Karter_Brazy]

Originally Posted by RagtagXMASTER

just a quick update to this, got another report on redline 5w-50 at about the 4500 mile interval and the oil is doing very well. it looks like the oil can really handle the heat of the motor

Great feedback👍

[LJohnson32]

Originally Posted by RagtagXMASTER

just a quick update to this, got another report on redline 5w-50 at about the 4500 mile interval and the oil is doing very well. it looks like the oil can really handle the heat of the motor

Interesting observations over time with the use of the 5W-50 -- it's almost as if it's 'healing' your engine based on the trends of the wear metals and the amount of additive/dispersant still present in the oil. I'm sure the reduced usage intervals have helped as well, but it looks like the oil is doing well.

Posting up the report I just got back from Blackstone a few days ago after my 65k change. Slightly longer interval than the first sample, but the Liqui Moly Molygen 5W-40 seems to be holding up well according to their comments.

[RagtagXMASTER]

Originally Posted by LJohnson32

Interesting observations over time with the use of the 5W-50 -- it's almost as if it's 'healing' your engine based on the trends of the wear metals and the amount of additive/dispersant still present in the oil. I'm sure the reduced usage intervals have helped as well, but it looks like the oil is doing well.

Posting up the report I just got back from Blackstone a few days ago after my 65k change. Slightly longer interval than the first sample, but the Liqui Moly Molygen 5W-40 seems to be holding up well according to their comments.

Thank you i noticed after i changed and did a few samples that the engine was doing pretty well, at least from the reports.

The most important characteristics though i think are with the viscosity ratings. when i was using the Liquimoly 5w-40 and 5-30 oils the oil was never the right viscosity rating when at temperature, and i feel like that is what most of the wear is occuring really. if the oil is shearing and not being protective at high temperature and medium loads, image how damaging a high heat, high load situation would do to bearing materials and other internal components.

On your report the engine looks to be doing well, but consider trying a -50 weight to up the viscosity at temperature, and you should see less wear in the engine. either liqui moly 5w-50 or redline right now seem to be doing the best on these engines for the high heat load present on the oil.

[LJohnson32]

Originally Posted by RagtagXMASTER

The most important characteristics though i think are with the viscosity ratings. when i was using the Liquimoly 5w-40 and 5-30 oils the oil was never the right viscosity rating when at temperature, and i feel like that is what most of the wear is occuring really. if the oil is shearing and not being protective at high temperature and medium loads, image how damaging a high heat, high load situation would do to bearing materials and other internal components.

I agree -- seeing the viscosity under the specified range has been something I've been keeping an eye on for sure. I suppose I've been comfortable with it based on the summary/feedback given by Blackstone that it seems to be harmless. As far as thermal management, once the oil temp needle registers above the 160 dash, I always switch into my M1 program which includes Sport Plus drivetrain to run the water pump full time. Average operating temp usually tops out at ~200F as opposed to ~230F without Sport Plus. Curious to hear what temps you're seeing in Sport Plus under normal driving conditions at the higher weight oil.

My driving behavior rarely (if ever) involves sustained high load, so the fact that I'm not seeing elevated levels of copper and lead (bearing material) suggests that the oil is appropriate at least for my driving style. If I were running a tune as you are and putting higher sustained loads on the engine, the 5W-50 would be an obvious choice I think.

Originally Posted by RagtagXMASTER

On your report the engine looks to be doing well, but consider trying a -50 weight to up the viscosity at temperature, and you should see less wear in the engine. either liqui moly 5w-50 or redline right now seem to be doing the best on these engines for the high heat load present on the oil.

I'm definitely still thinking about the 5W-50 after seeing the way your reports are trending -- I guess being stock and having a generally conservative driving style has kept me satisfied at the 5W-40. Not that it's anything to place a lot of weight on (no pun intended), but remembering that the factory oil weight is a 5W-30 also makes me less worried if the LM 5W-40 shears down to a 30 weight at temp, along with Blackstone's comments about the shear being harmless.

Nonetheless, you still have me questioning if I should be switching. The 5W-50 seems to be doing great at handling the higher loads with your tune, so it's safe to assume it would probably do just as well if not better on a stock car with a generally conservative driving style ~80% of the time.

[RagtagXMASTER]

Originally Posted by LJohnson32

I agree -- seeing the viscosity under the specified range has been something I've been keeping an eye on for sure. I suppose I've been comfortable with it based on the summary/feedback given by Blackstone that it seems to be harmless. As far as thermal management, once the oil temp needle registers above the 160 dash, I always switch into my M1 program which includes Sport Plus drivetrain to run the water pump full time. Average operating temp usually tops out at ~200F as opposed to ~230F without Sport Plus. Curious to hear what temps you're seeing in Sport Plus under normal driving conditions at the higher weight oil.

My driving behavior rarely (if ever) involves sustained high load, so the fact that I'm not seeing elevated levels of copper and lead (bearing material) suggests that the oil is appropriate at least for my driving style. If I were running a tune as you are and putting higher sustained loads on the engine, the 5W-50 would be an obvious choice I think.



I'm definitely still thinking about the 5W-50 after seeing the way your reports are trending -- I guess being stock and having a generally conservative driving style has kept me satisfied at the 5W-40. Not that it's anything to place a lot of weight on (no pun intended), but remembering that the factory oil weight is a 5W-30 also makes me less worried if the LM 5W-40 shears down to a 30 weight at temp, along with Blackstone's comments about the shear being harmless.

Nonetheless, you still have me questioning if I should be switching. The 5W-50 seems to be doing great at handling the higher loads with your tune, so it's safe to assume it would probably do just as well if not better on a stock car with a generally conservative driving style ~80% of the time.

My coolant temps in sport plus trend near between 180-190F once fully warmed up and my oil stays between 200-220F. this is also with an ambient temperature between 70-90F in the Northeast summer, but overall has been consistent. I can check live data from my awron vent gauge so its interesting to see the temps before, during and after some spirited driving.

I notice my 5w-50 will stay hotter, longer, as the oil i think retains the heat more, or maybe its best to say its good at taking the heat out of the metal, but not at relinquishing it.

Its very good to keep the car in sport plus to help pull the heat out of the coolant, i have seen my coolant stay above 230F while in comfort, driving casually. keeping the car in sport plus i feel is better for the longevity of the engine.

As for your case you may be correct in thinking that if it shears closer to a 30 weight you may be fine, but regardless of tune, the engines run pretty hot especially when driving around casually. if you ever want to try the 50 weight you could i dont think it will harm anything, but i think the extra peace of mind from the shear strength and the higher moly count is great for long lasting protection.

I will continue to gather samples of my car on the redline and most likely do another sample in 3000 miles, i wanted to see how the oil performed at the 4500 mile range and it seems to be fine, but i would rather change at 3000, when i changed the oil it was considerably darker in my opinion then when i changed it at 4500 miles when i changed it at 3000.

Only time and more data will tell

[LJohnson32]

Originally Posted by RagtagXMASTER

My coolant temps in sport plus trend near between 180-190F once fully warmed up and my oil stays between 200-220F. this is also with an ambient temperature between 70-90F in the Northeast summer, but overall has been consistent. I can check live data from my awron vent gauge so its interesting to see the temps before, during and after some spirited driving.

I notice my 5w-50 will stay hotter, longer, as the oil i think retains the heat more, or maybe its best to say its good at taking the heat out of the metal, but not at relinquishing it.

Got it -- interesting to observe the temperature difference between the two oils at operating temp in Sport Plus at around 70-90F ambient, as mine is consistently between 190-200 under the same conditions. I would tend to think that the oil temp and engine temp would be at equilibrium rather than the oil being measurably hotter than the internals given how rapidly it interfaces with all of the internals at operating temp viscosity, but I'm no chemist or thermodynamics expert

Originally Posted by RagtagXMASTER

Its very good to keep the car in sport plus to help pull the heat out of the coolant, i have seen my coolant stay above 230F while in comfort, driving casually. keeping the car in sport plus i feel is better for the longevity of the engine.

Absolutely, I couldn't agree more here. Religiously have done this since buying the car last May -- something easy that every S63 owner can do to extend the life of their engine

Originally Posted by RagtagXMASTER

As for your case you may be correct in thinking that if it shears closer to a 30 weight you may be fine, but regardless of tune, the engines run pretty hot especially when driving around casually. if you ever want to try the 50 weight you could i dont think it will harm anything, but i think the extra peace of mind from the shear strength and the higher moly count is great for long lasting protection.

For sure -- it's been interesting to see how much higher the moly levels are in the Redline 5W-50 compared to the LM 5W-40 'Molygen' which is literally named to tout the usage of molybdenum in the additive package lol.

Originally Posted by RagtagXMASTER

I will continue to gather samples of my car on the redline and most likely do another sample in 3000 miles, i wanted to see how the oil performed at the 4500 mile range and it seems to be fine, but i would rather change at 3000, when i changed the oil it was considerably darker in my opinion then when i changed it at 4500 miles when i changed it at 3000.

Sounds good and I'll be looking forward to following those reports -- I think from an apples to apples comparison perspective, your latest sample at 4,500 miles was a good one as that's about my typical interval.

Thanks for the great insight on this, will continue to kick the idea around in my head for the next 4,500 miles about switching over

[danielgmanm6]

Just wanted to say you guys are really doing a service to this whole community. I just purchased a 2013 with 17,000 original miles. I live in nc so never gets too cold here. I plan on keeping this car forever. I normally just take her to the gym or store, never long sustained highway drives. I've been letting the rpm drop on initial start and baby it to wherever I'm going. I honestly haven't really been too focused on the operating Temps. This whole rod bearing talk has me kinda worried to be honest. How can bmw continually have the same issues on multiple engines and still manufacture them like this. I guess my question is, I'm all about longevity and I won't put crazy miles on the car. What is the best oil for my climate? Is a thinner oil better for short trips? I just want to make sure I'm running the right oil. I was always told to just listen to the manufacturer as far as recommended oil. The problem is Bmw trying to save money with the extended intervals etc. Oh, and I plan on 4-5k intervals. Thanks guys!!!