2013 650 - N63Tu Engine - Improvement?

[JNoSol]

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Hello 6ers. I would like to thank you for the feedback in advance.

I've been debating between a new 2012 and 2013 - 650 or 750 for over 6 months. With the 2012, there are tons of incentives and savings to get in those brand new cars that haven't been sold. With the 2013, you get the N63Tu over the N63. The 2013 has Valvetronic = no throttle bodies + more mpg + more power + engine runs cooler + smoother.

The savings is between $10-$20k for a 2012 model, with the last gen N63.

Questions:
- If you own the 2013, have you notice any oil burning? The N63 (2012) were known to needing 1-2 quart of oil between oil changes. Not sure if this has been addressed in 2013 with the N63Tu.
- If you own the 2012, are you considering the 2013? If yes, why?

[southern6er22]

I own a '12 and am definitely not going to swap out this soon. I'll simply never drive the '13 and stay ignorant and blissful. I drove the new M6 - which has a monster of an engine - and I didn't walk away from it longing to have that car. Is it an awesome car? Yes. Did I feel like the on-the-street acceleration, speed, etc. was worth an additional $20k? No. Is the overall M6 worth the extra money? Probably so.

My point? Even the 560 hp, 500 lb-ft ///M engine didn't seem like it was THAT much better than my 407 hp, 450 lb-ft 650xi. I haven't driven the '13 version. I'm sure it is objectively better. However, if you're looking to save some money but want a loaded 6er/7er, then you'd probably be better off spending the money on a car with the extra toys but has to make due with a measly 400 hp.

This is completely personal and subjective, but I think the overall package means a lot more than the drivetrain alone. Going back to the M6 and my M School experience, my M6 had the B&O system, soft close doors, and the new iDrive (okay, technically that was on the M5s, not the M6, but go along with it for a second), but it didn't have the extended Merino package. The interior, to me, just seemed cheap compared to my Nappa/Alcantara-covered 650i, and I really didn't desire that specific car more than my own (i.e. the extended leather made more of a difference to me than the extra 150 hp and 1/2 second faster to 60 mph). My ideal car would be the M6 with all of those toys, full leather, and the monstrous M engine, but that car is approaching $130,000. For my $105,000, I'd rather the toys and the leather that I'll fully experience every second that I'm in my car, and I'd leave the M6's performance extras that are less accessible on a daily basis.

I know this response got a bit babbly, but I hope it makes sense.

[hinckley]

With the 650, pretty much the only change from '12 to '13 is the engine. And it's not worth $10-$20k imho. With the 750, in addition to the engine, there are other LCI changes that you may think makes your new car a bit "old". But again, $10-$20k is a lot of money.

[southern6er22]

Originally Posted by hinckley

With the 650, pretty much the only change from '12 to '13 is the engine. And it's not worth $10-$20k imho. With the 750, in addition to the engine, there are other LCI changes that you may think makes your new car a bit "old". But again, $10-$20k is a lot of money.

I can't see buying a new BMW, particularly one at this end of their line-up, without the LED coronas. The full LEDs are too good to pass up as well.

[mlai]

I came from a 2011 F10 550i with N63 and now a F06 with N63Tu. Not apples to apples but close enough comparison in terms of engines....

My 0.0002 cents on the N63 and N63Tu. Although, they are not much difference on paper, but to me, going from N63 to N63Tu is a world of difference. Granted some of it may be due to the different tuning on a F06 vs a F10 but still.... Seems to me the engine is more responsive in the F06 vs the F10. I am not sure whether that is completely due to the N63Tu or more due to different tuning by BMW with the F06 (probably the later). But I do feel the power of the N63tu during pull way more than the F10.

However, don't believe that you get better mileage with the N63Tu. My F06 with the N63tu consistently drinks around 5-7% more gas at the pump than my F10 with the N63tu for similar routes.

And the N63tu burns engine oils just the same as the N63, for me at least....

[andreo]

Hello JN

I own a 2013 650i with the N63tu engine. Yes, it does burn oil like the N63 but does not appear to be an issue as far as performance goes.

Prior to receiving the vehicle, I had spent a bit of time with a 2012 650i. Frankly, the difference between a 2012 650i and a 2013 650i is negligible in everyday driving, at least to me. If you timed the two with a stopwatch, you may get a fractional difference in performance but only if you can repeat the conditions perfectly. For a professional race car driver, the difference may be apparent but for folks like me who do not drive or test cars for a living, the difference is unnoticeable. For contrast (I know it's not apples to apples), the difference between the 650i and the 640i is very apparent.

If you have a choice between the 2012 and 2013 650i, assuming residual value is not a concern, the 10-20k is certainly better utilized on equipment that you experience everyday. A 2012 650i equipped with the LED headlights, B&O system, ventilated merino leather, adaptive drive and soft-close doors would deliver (cliche warning) more "sheer driving pleasure" than a lesser equipped 2013 650i. The equipment mentioned should fit within 15-20k if not better, depending on how eager your dealer is in making a deal with you. Happy dealing!

[southern6er22]

Haha. Andreo makes a good point. I don't mean to insult anyone around here, but most of us are far from racing drivers who could tell minute differences relatively easily. Go for a few hot laps of the different courses with the instructors at the Performance Center, and be ready to eat a large slice of humble pie. I thought I was getting pretty good at a few exercises, and then we hopped in the M5s with the instructors and felt so very inadequate lol.

I got in an M5 after someone else did his half circuit laps, and he had the A/C off. I had to laugh because I knew I was a long way off from gaining any value from the power zapped by the A/C. If anything, doing laps in a miserably hot car would hurt my concentration thus hurting my times more than the 2 hp lost to running on "Max A/C."

[Bönz]

Every professional review I've read has indicated that valvetronic equipped cars have poorer throttle response than those without. But again, in everyday driving, probably not noticeable. One thing's for certain - valvetronic adds complexity - more to breakdown. Oil usage should be the same, there's no difference in the bottom ends, reciprocating mass or oil systems of these engines. And there's no reason the Tu would run "smoother".

I agree with andreo and Southy. Spend the money on equipment that is more useful on a daily basis and go for the better deal.

[JNoSol]

Thanks for everyone's feedback. Keep them coming.

Originally Posted by Bönz

Oil usage should be the same, there's no difference in the bottom ends, reciprocating mass or oil systems of these engines. And there's no reason the Tu would run "smoother".

Bönz: I don't know if the "Tu" engine is just upper end mods or did BMW add a few more corrections, such as reducing oil burns. Based on the feedback above, the new engine is just as thirsty for oil. I know I'm not supposed to believe in all the marking gimmick about valtronic, but there should be some truth about it running smoother and more efficiently. Throttle response might a wash, since it's the same lag for valtronic to open the valves vs the motor to open the butterfly. Having the throttle body does create a pocket of vacuum space between the valves and the butterfly. I do agree that more parts = more chance of failure.

Do you know if the N63 loses oil through the cylinder rings, bottom seals (no one reported leaks), or the intake vacuum sucking in oil?

[Bönz]

I'm not sure why the new TT V8s drink oil. Mine is about every 4500 miles like most you read about here. The ones drinking a quart every 1500 or so miles I think are a problem.

I don't believe there are any leaks or an intake issue. We would see blue smoke. Conventional wisdom would suggest that the turbos are responsible. The constant high pressure-feeds to the bearings most likely push oil past the bearings, especially on the hot side (turbine) when the engine and turbos are still "cold" before thermal expansion closes everything up. The oil is burnt off before we see it in the exhaust.

Remember we are running fairly thin oil at 5W-30. My E92 M3 used 10W-60 (which I thought was weird) and probably used about a quart every 15k or so. I think such a high viscosity oil probably wouldn't do a very good job lubricating the turbo bearings especially when cold.

There is no doubt valvetronic has its advantages. Like you suggest, it eliminates the pumping losses associated with "normal" throttling. This improves efficiency. Also, the theory goes, that under part throttle (engine warm) conditions, the lower valve lift improves combustion swirl resulting in improved emissions. I don't know where the "smoother" is coming from but perhaps that is also a result of the aforementioned.

From all the BMW material I've read, there were no other changes from N63 to N63Tu other than the addition of valvetronic and its associated hardware/software. I do believe BMW increased the boost slightly to gain the extra HP the Tu has, based on the engine's ability to meet emission and economy targets due to the valvetronic. Then again, automakers are always tweaking things here and there so we will never know for sure.

It does seem to me that the advantages of valetronic would be more pronounced in a normally aspirated engine. But I guess when BMW commits to a technology, they might as well go all the way. Hell, I don't even think there are anymore NA engines in BMW's portfolio.

[southern6er22]

The lack of NA engines is so sad. I never fully appreciated them until I drive the M3 at the PC. The M Sport exhaust on my 6er is good, but that NA ///M engine sounded glorious. WOT down a straight in that car makes a strong argument for saying "screw emissions, more hp, and massive torque - give me more of that noise!" But that's just me

[JNoSol]

Originally Posted by Bönz

I'm not sure why the new TT V8s drink oil. Mine is about every 4500 miles like most you read about here. The ones drinking a quart every 1500 or so miles I think are a problem.

Agreed, 1qt per 1,500 miles is outrageous. I have heard the engine will get less thirsty for oil over time, as the seals/rings start seating. If I do pull a trigger on getting an N63, I'll have to rig BMS oil catch cans to fit the N63.