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      01-30-2013, 12:08 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceking4u

If price was removed...would you get an RS7? I'm pretty sure the RS7 is going to be in the neighborhood of $115k loaded. BMW is going to be forced to charge $135k for their M6 GC
I wouldn't even consider an Audi... Haha but I'm sure you already knew that... :
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      01-30-2013, 02:23 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by motorsport_cat View Post
why the hell would audi say that the s7 hits 60 in under 5 seconds? its under 4...
Well, less than 4 is less than 5. It's not like they are wrong. LOL
Ya I know but a one second is a lot
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      01-30-2013, 04:57 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Tattedtwice View Post
Aww, what happen audi, your check to m/t get lost in the mail? Lol
This is what happens when you let a mag other than c&d test your overrated cars, suddenly theyre no longer 1st place, which they never shouldve been in ANY comparo.
I have been amazed how recently car guys can actually be car guys and have good productive discussions on bimmerpost. Everyone with half a brain realizes that the three big German car companies are making great cars. The better the competition, the better the future products, whether from BMW, Audi, or Merc.

Typical uneducated inflammatory fanboy response that I was accustomed to seeing on bimmerpost in the past.
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      01-30-2013, 06:39 PM   #92
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Even though im a bmw fan, i would have to choose the s7 just as it seams to out handle all of them, better on fuel, quicker and cheaper...
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      01-30-2013, 06:41 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceking4u View Post
If price was removed...would you get an RS7? I'm pretty sure the RS7 is going to be in the neighborhood of $115k loaded. BMW is going to be forced to charge $135k for their M6 GC
oh lord
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      01-30-2013, 10:54 PM   #94
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You gotta drive them. I did.
S7 is fast with the supercharged engine but steering feels a bit numb. Nice interior with diamond stitching, LED lights. Dont like the MMI , audis version of idrive
Didn't drive the 6 GC xdrive, drove 6 GC. Phenomenol interior. Had a matte bronze with white and caramel interior. Stunning. does feel a bit slower but handles better than S7.Large nav screen, sexy interior especially in contrasting leather. Definitely has more X factor IMHO.

Both great cars, all things being equal 6 GC for sure for me. BUT not sure if its worth the price difference. BTW, my lease quotes were similar in payments and for me thats important. Audi makes less S7's than BMW makes 6GC so money factor and residuals are not as favorable.

Just my two cents worth
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      02-02-2013, 10:53 AM   #95
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I haven't driven the 6GC but I do have a 6. I have driven a 7 series and the 5 series. All the 6 series are more like a two door 7 and not a 5. The ride, features and attention to detail are all like the 7. I would say the 6GC is a sleeker sexier 7.

If you have the time / opportunity spend some time in a 7, then spend some time in a 5; then drive a 6. There is a big difference in the execution of luxury. The 5 is nice but there is a reason it starts off so low in price.

As for the S7, I would have to sit in it and drive it. Overall it's a great car from what I see.

I almost got a CLS, nice car lots of features for the price. It seems to try very hard to be special, kinda like a woman with too much makeup.

I had a E92 M3 loaded, loved that car. But since it's driven on the street 99% of the time she never really had a chance to shine. So I wanted a car the was great on the street and fun enough to drive.

I love my 6 and I love it even more with my Dinan Stage 2

Last edited by jg_BMW_indy; 02-02-2013 at 10:55 AM. Reason: grammer
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      02-02-2013, 05:03 PM   #96
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Congratulations to the 6'er on it's win. However, looking at the following figures, I would have to go with some others and pick the S7. There is just no way to justify some of the numbers for the 650.

Heavier by 200 lbs. Slower. Pricier. WTF happened?
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      02-03-2013, 01:53 PM   #97
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I don't know about anyone else, but I'm just glad that these three Bavarian automakers are making such great cars.

It pushes each of them to up the ante in each iteration of the car. MB opened the floodgates to the 4-door coupe, for which we F12/13 owners have much to thank for. Audi has made both MB and BMW step up their game in terms of interior decor and layout. And BMW's insistence of making well-balanced, good road handling cars has made both MB and Audi realize that everything isn't just about straight line acceleration or low-end torque, or even full-time AWD.

I know which car I like and am grateful there are 3 great choice out there.

Because bottom line is, very few people in this segment of the market will buy a car based purely on numbers alone, a significant portion of the reason we buy a car is the visceral emotional feeling that a particular car creates in us as we sit behind the wheel and take a curve like a bat out of hell.


I, for one, am hoping that the next generation CLS will be a kick-ass car, because that'll only make BMW work that much harder on the next generation 6 series, and that's can only be a good thing, because that's what I plan on getting next.

Last edited by BMWMilan; 02-03-2013 at 10:37 PM.
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      02-03-2013, 10:09 PM   #98
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Very well said. Actual buyers in this segment take a lot more into consideration. Not that I'm a "fanboy" but BMW has the edge in the brand cache' also; although a 911 might be the next car.
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      02-03-2013, 11:17 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jg_BMW_indy View Post
Very well said. Actual buyers in this segment take a lot more into consideration. Not that I'm a "fanboy" but BMW has the edge in the brand cache' also; although a 911 might be the next car.
You think BMW has a $20-30K brand cache?
I don't think people are saying the 650i is not a nice car just overpriced when compared to the competitors. At it's price point you are looking at competitors upscale division in Audi's RS and MB AMG cars. These cars will have performance to match the M6 and also be more exclusive and have more cache. I think if you take these into factors than the 650i is a hard sell.
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      02-04-2013, 10:55 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW View Post
You think BMW has a $20-30K brand cache?
I don't think people are saying the 650i is not a nice car just overpriced when compared to the competitors. At it's price point you are looking at competitors upscale division in Audi's RS and MB AMG cars. These cars will have performance to match the M6 and also be more exclusive and have more cache. I think if you take these into factors than the 650i is a hard sell.
There is no way to account how much any one person values brand cache.

For example, by all accounts (numbers wise) the GTR is an equal or "better" car than the 911 C4S, but the 911 is easily priced about 30k more than the GTR.

Same is true with the base Vette and base 911, i.e., numbers wise the Vette matches up to the 911 line by line, but the Porsche is about 2x as much as the Vette, yet just about everyone will prefer a Porsche.

Is the Porsche brand cache worth anywhere from 30k to 50k? That's an individual question to which there is no "right" answer.
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      02-04-2013, 11:04 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by ipsedixit View Post
Is the Porsche brand cache worth anywhere from 30k to 50k? That's an individual question to which there is no "right" answer.
There at least is an explanation for why Porsche's prices are higher -their assembly process is entirely geared towards custom orders. Porsche doesn't build cars with packages, lines, or prepackaged option groups in high volume anticipating market demand; every car is a custom order. Even the ones in dealer inventory are spec custom orders by the dealers.

For better or worse, legitimate or no, this is one reason Porsches cost so much.
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      02-04-2013, 01:35 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by ipsedixit View Post
There is no way to account how much any one person values brand cache.

For example, by all accounts (numbers wise) the GTR is an equal or "better" car than the 911 C4S, but the 911 is easily priced about 30k more than the GTR.

Same is true with the base Vette and base 911, i.e., numbers wise the Vette matches up to the 911 line by line, but the Porsche is about 2x as much as the Vette, yet just about everyone will prefer a Porsche.

Is the Porsche brand cache worth anywhere from 30k to 50k? That's an individual question to which there is no "right" answer.
As much as what you are saying is totally true and I agree with you but what I am saying is for the knowledgeable the RS and AMG cars should have a higher prestige/cache. We aren't talking Corvette and Porsche here. We are talking Audi and AMG cars which are hand assembled by their custom division. Only the people who wants to be brand whores won't know that the AMG and RS cars aren't superior in quality/parts and materials, and craftsmanship, not to mention exclusivity which this segment most likely also look at. Lastly resale for the AMG and RS cars should be superior just like the M6 will be as they are more exclusive.
Please don't look at it that I am putting your vehicle down, but look at it from an enthusiast and unbiased stand point that the 650i is a awesome vehicle that is just overpriced when compared to the competitors.
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      02-04-2013, 06:03 PM   #103
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BMW is priced higher than Audi and MB, but IMO the 6GC looks a lot better too! I used to own the 2012 Mercedes CLS550 and I loved it. I wish I never got rid of the car honestly, but that's another story. Now I own a 2013 640i GC and my wife says she "hands down" thinks it's better than the CLS550 even though the CLS is a V8. It looks better, drives smoother, and the interior is way better. Also, most people are getting great deals on the 6GC. I got 10k off my car which made it less than the CLS I previously owned and about 3k more than the A7 I priced (all the cars were discounted). Also, I would've received an even bigger discount on the 650iGC but I opted for better gas milage.

I've owned Audi's, BMW's, and Mercedes and I think all of them make great cars but, as for the four-door coupe I think the 6GC has the wow factor. Great performance and superior styling!! Also, if you can get 10k off it's a no brainer (atleast for me).
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      02-04-2013, 07:53 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post
There at least is an explanation for why Porsche's prices are higher -their assembly process is entirely geared towards custom orders. Porsche doesn't build cars with packages, lines, or prepackaged option groups in high volume anticipating market demand; every car is a custom order. Even the ones in dealer inventory are spec custom orders by the dealers.

For better or worse, legitimate or no, this is one reason Porsches cost so much.
The fact that you can order a Porsche bespoke or a la carte, does not mean that all of them are produced that way, esp. the ones on dealer lots.

In fact, Porsche does have packages for their cars, and most of the cars are built with one of their standard packages, e.g. Premium Pkg or Premium Pkg Plus w/Sports Seats, etc., and then they add on popular stand-alone options like bigger wheels, etc., which is the way most cars are configured these days, be it BMW, Mercedes, Chevrolet, etc.

But even if everything was bespoke, I'm not sure that that alone would command the price premium for Porsches.

All I'm saying is that when someone compares a GTR to a 4S, and then concludes the 4S is a better car, the general riposte is not, "No way! The 4S is like 30k more!"
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      02-05-2013, 12:37 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipsedixit View Post
The fact that you can order a Porsche bespoke or a la carte, does not mean that all of them are produced that way, esp. the ones on dealer lots.

In fact, Porsche does have packages for their cars, and most of the cars are built with one of their standard packages, e.g. Premium Pkg or Premium Pkg Plus w/Sports Seats, etc., and then they add on popular stand-alone options like bigger wheels, etc., which is the way most cars are configured these days, be it BMW, Mercedes, Chevrolet, etc.

But even if everything was bespoke, I'm not sure that that alone would command the price premium for Porsches.

All I'm saying is that when someone compares a GTR to a 4S, and then concludes the 4S is a better car, the general riposte is not, "No way! The 4S is like 30k more!"
That's how I feel. I don't know how it's ok for Porsche to be expensive and the other brands can't and I'm not talking about their 2 doors cars but about the Panamera and Cayenne where they cost more than their competitor.
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      02-05-2013, 01:32 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by WhyGeeGee View Post
That's how I feel. I don't know how it's ok for Porsche to be expensive and the other brands can't and I'm not talking about their 2 doors cars but about the Panamera and Cayenne where they cost more than their competitor.
Ahh have you driven the Porsche Cayenne and Panamera? Nothing in the class handles and performs as well as the Panamera and the Cayenne.
If you look at the Cayenne Turbo S compared to the X6M it isn't even close on the tracks and the Cayenne is a full blown SUV. Look at the 0-60, 1/4 mile numbers and the X6M is faster but put it on a track and the Cayenne really shows it's heritage.

http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/b...bo_s_mkii.html

Then we look at the M5 vs a Panamera Turbo S and the Porsche beat the M5 on all the tracks both cars have been on. Yes different conditions etc., but we don't really know if it all favored the Porsche. Also the Panamera is a larger car than the M5 yet still capable of beating a smaller car around the track is no simple feat.

http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/b...a_turbo_s.html

The main point is that if you are going to charge more than your competitors like Porsche does than you better beat your competition in all aspects of performance/handling. Not to mention Porsche is always on the top in reliability easily beating BMW, Audi, and MB.

In the 650iGC comparison it is an all round nicer car in design but it didn't beat the competition in handling/performance and is asking for $20-30k more?
I think that the fact that BMW is discounting this car by $10k tells you something about the pricing of this car. Go into Audi and ask about the pricing discount for the S6, S7 and they will laugh at you atlleast here in Canada they will. I doubt they are discounting the AMG much either.
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      02-05-2013, 02:05 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW View Post
Ahh have you driven the Porsche Cayenne and Panamera? Nothing in the class handles and performs as well as the Panamera and the Cayenne.
If you look at the Cayenne Turbo S compared to the X6M it isn't even close on the tracks and the Cayenne is a full blown SUV. Look at the 0-60, 1/4 mile numbers and the X6M is faster but put it on a track and the Cayenne really shows it's heritage.

http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/b...bo_s_mkii.html

Then we look at the M5 vs a Panamera Turbo S and the Porsche beat the M5 on all the tracks both cars have been on. Yes different conditions etc., but we don't really know if it all favored the Porsche. Also the Panamera is a larger car than the M5 yet still capable of beating a smaller car around the track is no simple feat.

http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/b...a_turbo_s.html

The main point is that if you are going to charge more than your competitors like Porsche does than you better beat your competition in all aspects of performance/handling. Not to mention Porsche is always on the top in reliability easily beating BMW, Audi, and MB.

In the 650iGC comparison it is an all round nicer car in design but it didn't beat the competition in handling/performance and is asking for $20-30k more?
I think that the fact that BMW is discounting this car by $10k tells you something about the pricing of this car. Go into Audi and ask about the pricing discount for the S6, S7 and they will laugh at you atlleast here in Canada they will. I doubt they are discounting the AMG much either.
Price and value are subjective. Aston Martin Rapide is twice the price of 650i GC, and it doesn't out perform anything on this list. Yet, I saw it here and there, so there are people that will buy it for some of its unique elements. They should have included it in this race because it belongs to 4 doors coupe class.

Performance wise, GTR would beat anything on this list at similar price and it will haul 4.

Good handling and good driving experience are different issues. GTR is great handling, but BMW is great driving experience.
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      02-05-2013, 02:24 PM   #108
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I think the point you're missing is that MSRPs are as the S in the acronym implies, purely suggested prices. In reality as with any commodity the market dictates the true price.

I can't comment about Canada, but in the UK there are big discounts available on all these cars, including the S7. At present the 640d, A7 bi-turbo and S7 are pretty close to parity for pre-reg/demo cars (3 months old with a couple of thousand miles on them). Finance deals aren't that far off either if you bide your time.

In my experience MSRPs are vastly inflated across the range. And I think this practice is primarily in place to make finance deals look more attractive then they really are. Instead of charging 20% less, but a realistic interest rate, manufacturers are bumping the MSRP and quoting a lower interest rate (plus other incentives such as dealer contributions). It's simply a way for premium manufacturers to avoid more obvious headline discounts which they feel devalue their brand.

Ultimately why does the MSRP matter to the consumer (the person that's actually buying the car). All I care about when cross shopping is what I'm asked to pay and i make my decision based on that.

And to be honest when youre dropping ~$100k, oddly enough quoted figures and perceived cache of an M/AMG/RS badge may not matter as much. An S7 still looks almost the same as a standard A7 to my eye, which I see regularly. It's funny how one may define rarity/desire ability/preference in a different way when they're taking the massive depreciation hit, rather then debating it as a hypothetical.

Of course things may be different in your market. Your priorities may be different. But I've been dragged kicking and screaming from two door coupes/sports cars due to circumstances. My priorities were aesthetics/how the car drives (I generally prefer RWD)/practicality. Price within 10-15% wasn't that relevant to me. Nor was a marginal difference in performance. Given that, the GC won hands down over the A7/S7/CLS/Panemera (they were all well within my price range,I just couldn't stomachs the looks of the panamera). The one car that gave me pause for thought was the upcoming Quattro Porte, but I still wasn't comfortable with a Maser as my only daily driver . That may well change in a year, but I hope not as ill have to take a swift kick in the balls if I decide to change that quickly

Last edited by Mentos; 02-05-2013 at 02:28 PM. Reason: .
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      02-05-2013, 08:06 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW View Post
Ahh have you driven the Porsche Cayenne and Panamera? Nothing in the class handles and performs as well as the Panamera and the Cayenne.
If you look at the Cayenne Turbo S compared to the X6M it isn't even close on the tracks and the Cayenne is a full blown SUV. Look at the 0-60, 1/4 mile numbers and the X6M is faster but put it on a track and the Cayenne really shows it's heritage.

http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/b...bo_s_mkii.html

Then we look at the M5 vs a Panamera Turbo S and the Porsche beat the M5 on all the tracks both cars have been on. Yes different conditions etc., but we don't really know if it all favored the Porsche. Also the Panamera is a larger car than the M5 yet still capable of beating a smaller car around the track is no simple feat.

http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/b...a_turbo_s.html

The main point is that if you are going to charge more than your competitors like Porsche does than you better beat your competition in all aspects of performance/handling. Not to mention Porsche is always on the top in reliability easily beating BMW, Audi, and MB.

In the 650iGC comparison it is an all round nicer car in design but it didn't beat the competition in handling/performance and is asking for $20-30k more?
I think that the fact that BMW is discounting this car by $10k tells you something about the pricing of this car. Go into Audi and ask about the pricing discount for the S6, S7 and they will laugh at you atlleast here in Canada they will. I doubt they are discounting the AMG much either.
In the US it's a buyers market and I don't know anyone looking to pay full price for any car. USAA bank has a car buying service with exclusive member savings and the A7/CLS/6GC/ and panamera were all discounted. I didn't look into the S7 or AMG because I wasn't looking to purchase either one. Audi offered around 5-7k off the A7. CLS was 6-8. Panamera was 10-11k. 6GC 10k. Of course all discounts are subject to change and they normally do base on sales. When the A7 first dropped in 2012 the discounts were higher 7-8k. All of these cars were spec to my preference and with them all being within a couple thousand apart and the panamera/6GC at the same price I went with the 6GC. Who cares about three/tenths of a second? I think the overall package matters more. Also the A7 & 640iGC have the same stats.
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      02-05-2013, 11:44 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by neversummer78 View Post
Price and value are subjective. Aston Martin Rapide is twice the price of 650i GC, and it doesn't out perform anything on this list. Yet, I saw it here and there, so there are people that will buy it for some of its unique elements. They should have included it in this race because it belongs to 4 doors coupe class.

Performance wise, GTR would beat anything on this list at similar price and it will haul 4.

Good handling and good driving experience are different issues. GTR is great handling, but BMW is great driving experience.
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