BMW vs. Audi

[WJGreer]

Originally Posted by 1BMW335

An '87 4000 and an 04 All Road - That's a long time ago and times have changed. Unfortunately, I don't think many people own BMW's for that long any more and lease them for 2-3 years tops.

Times have changed, yet they haven't. Audis are still belt-driven and, as I understand it, the engines must be lifted for a timing belt change. That's only one example, but I do know that my indy mechanic grudgingly approves of my BMW habit and talks me away from Audi whenever he can.

I haven't seen statistics for lease versus buy on BMWs recently. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that short-term leasing has overtaken long term ownership. Still, the most economical way to own an expensive German car is to buy CPO at about 2 years old and hold until about 90,000 miles. Prove me wrong.

Originally Posted by Rated ///M

Honestly, if anyone is getting closer to overtaking BMW, it's Mercedes-Benz. Audi still has a ways to go, I think. Still, nothing drives like a BMW....for now.

Agree; I find myself looking at the new MB models more than Audis. I like Audis but I don't trust them.

[1BMW335]

Originally Posted by WJGreer

Times have changed, yet they haven't. Audis are still belt-driven and, as I understand it, the engines must be lifted for a timing belt change. That's only one example, but I do know that my indy mechanic grudgingly approves of my BMW habit and talks me away from Audi whenever he can.

I haven't seen statistics for lease versus buy on BMWs recently. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that short-term leasing has overtaken long term ownership. Still, the most economical way to own an expensive German car is to buy CPO at about 2 years old and hold until about 90,000 miles. Prove me wrong.

Agree; I find myself looking at the new MB models more than Audis. I like Audis but I don't trust them.

Check your info, there are still engines out there belt driven, but their newer engines are chain driven. Back when you got your 2005 BMW maybe, but the majority are chain driven now. They have a bigger variety of engines in Europe, so there may be a few that are.

[WJGreer]

Originally Posted by 1BMW335

Check your info, there are still engines out there belt driven, but their newer engines are chain driven. Back when you got your 2005 BMW maybe, but the majority are chain driven now. They have a bigger variety of engines in Europe, so there may be a few that are.

That's great news. Can you post a source, though? A quick Google suggests that the newer Audi V8s are chain driven, but I'm not seeing anything about the 2.0 or the 3.0.

[Cl0ud7]

Originally Posted by Freon

If Company A spends $50 million a year in racing who is to say that Company B spending $50 million in more direct consumer-oriented R&D isn't servicing their customers better or producing a better product?

I prefer more direct measures. I wouldn't buy a car because the manufacturer races. If that truly trickles down and makes a better car, than show me it is a better car. Don't point to racing as proof that the car is better.

Well said

[white911]

Sorry to be so late here...
BMWs and Audis are both great cars -- choose the right tool for the job.

We had a choice to make recently. We chose Audi for the following reasons.

Requirements -- the car needed to be fun to drive, all weather, comfortable on long trips, occasional track use, four doors for access to the back seat.....

My wife and I are both Track driving Instructors in a broad range of platforms. Both of us have racing experience in a variety of platforms.

What began this insanity (of having a daily driver for occasional track use) was that one day the weather was terribly cold and I decided to take her B6 A4 to the track in completely stock condition. I drove it in the instructor session and was amazed at the balance at speed. Four wheel drive, I expected major push, and was pleasantly surprised. The totally stock brakes and fluid did not last very long and after 15 laps I was using the early toss technique to slow the car. This helped the brakes; but, they were in need of both new pads and fluid after the session.

This experience led me to make the decision that I needed a daily driver to replace the Boxster daily driver (911 track car) which I could still use as an occasional track car. I have track experience in a range of E46 M3. I did all the research and ordered a new (2008) 135I. I am very satisfied with my decision as a daily driver, not so much for occasional track use. The 135's brakes look great; but will not stop the car after between 2 and four laps regardless of what pad I put on and I have tried my favorite pads (Hawk Ht-10). The problem is not the pads or the fluid, it is well documented that the rotor is undersized for the weight and power of the car. Thing two, the car will not turn, it is as far from neutral as some of the worst handling front wheel drive cars I have driven. It is designed to push and ironically, as bad as it is, it turns in better than the 3 series. Turning off the aids to the maximum extent possible cooks the rear brakes in short order. Consider this, I wore out the rear brakes before I wore out the fronts.

I have found the aids to be far more intrusive in the BMW than other new cars I have experience with.

So the time came in August to replace the 2004 A4 with 85,000 miles on it, we looked at a variety of cars. Because of our good fortune with A4s, we purchased a 2013 Audi S4. We recently returned from a 2000 mile road trip and it filled that square as well, surprisingly even better than the A4 which was more comfortable than the 135I. Audi spent some time tuning that exhaust note. Fantastic!! Now I want to get a new exhaust for the 135I.

Despite what it may look like, my only beef with the 135I has to do with its pathetic perfomance on the race track. It seems like it was designed to look good at first glance on paper. A comparison of the brake specs would have helped me; but, why would I expect BMW to put beautiful looking six piston calipers on a 28mm thick rotor (stock rotor thickness on a 1985 Porsche 911 (2700 pounds with 100 less horsepower).

[jsedlak]

I just find Audis, VWs, etc boring to look at. The lines are just way too subtle. Even the R8... it's supposed to be this monster, and it looks plain and boring.

[ScarecrowBoat]

Originally Posted by white911

Sorry to be so late here...
BMWs and Audis are both great cars -- choose the right tool for the job.

We had a choice to make recently. We chose Audi for the following reasons.

Requirements -- the car needed to be fun to drive, all weather, comfortable on long trips, occasional track use, four doors for access to the back seat.....

My wife and I are both Track driving Instructors in a broad range of platforms. Both of us have racing experience in a variety of platforms.

What began this insanity (of having a daily driver for occasional track use) was that one day the weather was terribly cold and I decided to take her B6 A4 to the track in completely stock condition. I drove it in the instructor session and was amazed at the balance at speed. Four wheel drive, I expected major push, and was pleasantly surprised. The totally stock brakes and fluid did not last very long and after 15 laps I was using the early toss technique to slow the car. This helped the brakes; but, they were in need of both new pads and fluid after the session.

This experience led me to make the decision that I needed a daily driver to replace the Boxster daily driver (911 track car) which I could still use as an occasional track car. I have track experience in a range of E46 M3. I did all the research and ordered a new (2008) 135I. I am very satisfied with my decision as a daily driver, not so much for occasional track use. The 135's brakes look great; but will not stop the car after between 2 and four laps regardless of what pad I put on and I have tried my favorite pads (Hawk Ht-10). The problem is not the pads or the fluid, it is well documented that the rotor is undersized for the weight and power of the car. Thing two, the car will not turn, it is as far from neutral as some of the worst handling front wheel drive cars I have driven. It is designed to push and ironically, as bad as it is, it turns in better than the 3 series. Turning off the aids to the maximum extent possible cooks the rear brakes in short order. Consider this, I wore out the rear brakes before I wore out the fronts.

I have found the aids to be far more intrusive in the BMW than other new cars I have experience with.

So the time came in August to replace the 2004 A4 with 85,000 miles on it, we looked at a variety of cars. Because of our good fortune with A4s, we purchased a 2013 Audi S4. We recently returned from a 2000 mile road trip and it filled that square as well, surprisingly even better than the A4 which was more comfortable than the 135I. Audi spent some time tuning that exhaust note. Fantastic!! Now I want to get a new exhaust for the 135I.

Despite what it may look like, my only beef with the 135I has to do with its pathetic perfomance on the race track. It seems like it was designed to look good at first glance on paper. A comparison of the brake specs would have helped me; but, why would I expect BMW to put beautiful looking six piston calipers on a 28mm thick rotor (stock rotor thickness on a 1985 Porsche 911 (2700 pounds with 100 less horsepower).

I had a similar experience, took my 135i to the track and it was awful. It did fine, but I really felt how undersized the brakes were and how terrible the suspension/tire combo was for the track. On the street (i.e. 99.9% of the time) it always felt great, but yeah, the track really highlighted a lot of weaknesses.

[MisterSkiMask]

I also went from a 335 to an M5 (E60) and now I have a 2013 S4. It is the right fit for me for now. Deep down I think I am still a BMW guy, but BMW (IMO) dropped the ball on the new 3 series, the interior (seats specifically) in particular. I really like the new 5 series, but I wanted a smaller car.

The Audi styling grows on me more and more. The view from the back is a little soft.

[JoeyO]

I'm in the middle of comparing a A4 to the 328ix and if I wanted just base models with only 4WD and xenons, I can probably get them for:

A4 Quattro: $35K
BMW 328ix: $40K

In my opinion, an A4 is 95% the car of a BMW at 87% of the price. So it's hard not to look at Audi. Sure, a true enthusiast might detect slight differences but most people are not enthusiasts and likely would not. So BMW is essentially charging an extra $5K simply for its name. That irks me. In a a way, I wish Audi does steal sales from BMW, so then maybe BMW will lower its prices.

BTW I've owned both Audi's and VW and an Audi is not a VW in my opinion. You feel the difference in everything from the door slam to the bell tones. The VW screams utlity and the Audi screams class. So yea, I am a fan of Audi's but I'm also a fan of BMW's and can see +/- of both brands.

[JoeyO]

Originally Posted by HotIce

Honestly, if anyone is getting closer to overtaking BMW, it's Mercedes-Benz. Audi still has a ways to go, I think...

Actually Audi is a very close second to BMW, because these are the world sales for the first 3 quarters of this year:

BMW = 1.11 million vehicles.
Audi = 1.10 million vehicles
Mercedes-Benz = 0.96 million vehicles

[MisterSkiMask]

Originally Posted by JoeyO

I'm in the middle of comparing a A4 to the 328ix and if I wanted just base models with only 4WD and xenons, I can probably get them for:

A4 Quattro: $35K
BMW 328ix: $40K

In my opinion, an A4 is 95% the car of a BMW at 87% of the cost. So it's hard not to look at Audi. Sure, a true enthusiast might detect slight differences but most people are not enthusiasts and likely would not. So BMW is essentially charging an extra $5K simply for its name. That irks me. In a a way, I wish Audi does steal sales from BMW, so then maybe BMW will lower its prices. I've owned both Audi's and VW and an Audi is not a VW in my opinion. You feel the difference in everything from the door slam to the bell tones. The VW screams utlity and the Audi screams class. So yea, I am a fan of Audi's but I'm also a fan of BMW's and can see +/- of both brands.

A big part of what pushed me to Audi is that BMW is losing their BMW-ness. They are going to electric steering (Audi has had it for a while and it is pretty well dialed in) so the steering feel advantage is gone, they went to 'high mileage' narrow run flat tires, which erodes more feel and grip. My S4 (with sport diff, to be fair) does not plow like Audis have historically, it turns in nicely and the grip and balance is very good. I have not had it out on the track yet, but in the spirited driving that I do I am impressed.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by JoeyO

I'm in the middle of comparing a A4 to the 328ix and if I wanted just base models with only 4WD and xenons, I can probably get them for:

A4 Quattro: $35K
BMW 328ix: $40K

In my opinion, an A4 is 95% the car of a BMW at 87% of the price. So it's hard not to look at Audi. Sure, a true enthusiast might detect slight differences but most people are not enthusiasts and likely would not. So BMW is essentially charging an extra $5K simply for its name. That irks me. In a a way, I wish Audi does steal sales from BMW, so then maybe BMW will lower its prices.

BTW I've owned both Audi's and VW and an Audi is not a VW in my opinion. You feel the difference in everything from the door slam to the bell tones. The VW screams utlity and the Audi screams class. So yea, I am a fan of Audi's but I'm also a fan of BMW's and can see +/- of both brands.

The 3 you want should be negotiated comfortably below $40k.

I got mine with a $43.400 sticker for $38k, only $750 of that was for the BLUETOOTH delete sillyness.

[JoeyO]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

I got mine with a $43.400 sticker for $38k.

How the heck did you do that for a brand new 328? That's like $2K under invoice, assuming invoice is 92%. I was quoting Edmunds TMV numbers.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by JoeyO

How the heck did you do that for a brand new 328? That's like $2K under invoice, assuming invoice is 92%. I was quoting Edmunds TMV numbers.

Nice, right?

I had a $1000 Team USA rebate, $750 owner loyalty.

Then this was a car being built for a friend who came to find out it was built without Bluetooth like it was supposed to.

BMW took $750 off the sticker for the blunder.

He bounced from the deal and walked. I called his dealer and said I would take the car for the price he had left negotiations at(they matched BMW's $750 and a bit more).

On top of that BMW called my friend and cut him a $1000 to re-order which he did. He got the exact car over again.

Seeing how BMW NA was quick to make him happy. I sent a letter saying how I was unimpressed with BMW's handling over the Bluetooth fuckup. It was a good letter.

That led to a free $100 BMW Bluetooth speaker system and a month's payment refund of $500.

So all in all, got the car for $38k which makes it feel like a great value. Oh, but it doesn't have Bluetooth. B00-friggin-hoo.

[JoeyO]

Ah, I see. I wish that were the norm. I figure anywhere $500-$1000 over invoice and I'm happy. That's $40K which agrees with Edmunds TMV. Thanks for sharing.

[white911]

Originally Posted by Shyte

bmw generally has a quicker 0 to 60 acceleration

An M3 compared to an S4 on clean , dry pavement yes.

A 335 compared to an S4, don't think so.

Found this head to head

[azzurro]

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

I also went from a 335 to an M5 (E60) and now I have a 2013 S4. It is the right fit for me for now. Deep down I think I am still a BMW guy, but BMW (IMO) dropped the ball on the new 3 series, the interior (seats specifically) in particular. I really like the new 5 series, but I wanted a smaller car.

The Audi styling grows on me more and more. The view from the back is a little soft.

If you think the view from the back is a little soft, what about the side views? I think the front and rear views of the Audis look great but the side views are BORING.

The rear seat room in the S4 & S5 is much smaller than the 335i and the Audi nav with the $30 a month Google payment is just completely lame. The audi engines are great but not better than the BMW engine. The adaptive suspensions are also similar to the 335i.

Originally, I wanted to buy an S4 or S5 which end up costing more then the 335i. I just ended up liking the styling of the 335i more because everything else in my opinion were equal. The 335i is a little lighter too. Besides the other things mentioned, I just love BW EB ll color which solidified the deal.

[tdmallinbmw]

BMW's turbo lag with the new 3 series is almost non-existent however the Audi is very noticeable

[white911]

Originally Posted by tdmallinbmw

BMW's turbo lag with the new 3 series is almost non-existent however the Audi is very noticeable

I am very happy with the lack of turbo lag in my BMW!! But, turbo lag in a supercharged S4?

[Mike00]

So this is an interesting comparison and thread for me. I was thinking of purchasing a weekend driver like a vette or mustang 5.0 recently, a car I never would of purchased but the new models are nice for what they are. Test drove the 5.0 this weekend and as fun as the car was, the reality is it has more straight line then I thought I could ever use most days on the road and handling is improved but nothing to compare to a beamer/audi.

So I've switched gears and plan to go out test driving the 135is, 335i/ix and finally an audi s4. The big piece of this for me is that I live in the northeast. I'd rather not buy a winter beater and so the quattro is appealing to me and I don't think the ix can keep up with the s4.

ON the other hand I don't have to work when it snows heavily but I don't want a 335i or 135is if it means I'm screwed when I'm caught out in an inch of snow or dusting one day. I can deal with winter tires but I don't want to be screwed if I get caught in a bad situation. I own a bike so a 3rd vehicle for me is unappealing and quite frankly we only get snow 2-3 days a year if that in the Philadelphia area.

At this point it seems like the 335i and S4 are comprable the big question will be test drives, insurance costs. and if winter tires work for light snow/cold weather in the northeast.

This thread's been a good read though. Prices are so comprable that the few thousand difference (depending on options) between the two car is so negligible when you are spending 50,000 on a car.

[white911]

Originally Posted by Mike00

So this is an interesting comparison and thread for me. I was thinking of purchasing a weekend driver like a vette or mustang 5.0 recently, a car I never would of purchased but the new models are nice for what they are. Test drove the 5.0 this weekend and as fun as the car was, the reality is it has more straight line then I thought I could ever use most days on the road and handling is improved but nothing to compare to a beamer/audi.

So I've switched gears and plan to go out test driving the 135is, 335i/ix and finally an audi s4. The big piece of this for me is that I live in the northeast. I'd rather not buy a winter beater and so the quattro is appealing to me and I don't think the ix can keep up with the s4.

ON the other hand I don't have to work when it snows heavily but I don't want a 335i or 135is if it means I'm screwed when I'm caught out in an inch of snow or dusting one day. I can deal with winter tires but I don't want to be screwed if I get caught in a bad situation. I own a bike so a 3rd vehicle for me is unappealing and quite frankly we only get snow 2-3 days a year if that in the Philadelphia area.

At this point it seems like the 335i and S4 are comprable the big question will be test drives, insurance costs. and if winter tires work for light snow/cold weather in the northeast.

This thread's been a good read though. Prices are so comprable that the few thousand difference (depending on options) between the two car is so negligible when you are spending 50,000 on a car.

I chose the S4 for the reasons you mention -- A few friends have been bringing their stock Mustang (Boss 302 and Boss 302 Laguna Seca) to the track and their track performance is quite appealing with only track tires. On the other hand -- no where near the build quality and certainly they bring nothing to the table when the road conditions are less than perfect.

[Mike00]

Originally Posted by white911

I chose the S4 for the reasons you mention -- A few friends have been bringing their stock Mustang (Boss 302 and Boss 302 Laguna Seca) to the track and their track performance is quite appealing with only track tires. On the other hand -- no where near the build quality and certainly they bring nothing to the table when the road conditions are less than perfect.

You live in MD I see. If you were daily driving do you think you could get away with just the beamer in our neck of the woods with snows tires in the winter? I really don't need to drive to work if we have real snow but if I'm out in my car i don't want some flurries to impact my ability to get home. As long as I enjoy the test drives this weekend I'm pretty well set on one of these cars and this is a big deciding factor for me. Because from what I've read the 335ix will just not keep up with the s4. The 335i is a better comparison etc..

Insurance is surprisingly cheap on these cars so quite frankly I can't find any other deciding factor other than test drive and the awd piece.