A warning about ceramic coatings

Opie55 · 10-05-2020, 09:05 AM

I learned a lesson I wish I had known in advance. The lesson is this - If your car is EVER parked in a location where it can get city water (not rainwater) on it that will dry there, like somewhere near a sprinkler system, do not get a ceramic coat (or at least not Crystal Serum Light, although my understanding is that they will all behave the same). I have parked my cars the same way in the same place for 30 years and never once had an issue with hard water spots. I put Crystal Serum Light on in April and now I have to buff it off and go back to wax. The water spotting is like nothing you've ever seen. It's almost comical how bad it is. Apparently this effect of ceramic coats is well known in the detailing world but mostly kept a little secret. And don't believe the hundreds of online sources that vinegar will remove them. It does not even touch these, and even if it did how often do you want to do that? Ceramic coats, for all the hype, are really for cars that are babied. But just one time with city water in the sun and it will likely be ruined.

Frupal · 10-05-2020, 09:14 AM

Sorry to hear you're having this issue, but very glad to know about it. Hard water spots drive me nuts!

Opie55 · 10-05-2020, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frupal

Sorry to hear you're having this issue, but very glad to know about it. Hard water spots drive me nuts!

And on a car your color it would be really bad. Mine is deep sea blue.

MMMM6GC · 10-05-2020, 10:49 AM

Yeah ceramic coatings don't prevent water spotting - see this video where CSL is being tested against the newer graphene coatings hitting the market. As a top protectant layer, they certainly shouldn't be enhancing the effects of water spotting, but are there to lessen the damage to your clearcoat (also to make routine cleaning easier).

In the video linked above, the hard water spots were ultimately only removed by polishing off the coating, which is better than polishing away clear.

Did you top your CSL with another coating by any chance? Exo is the recommended one and adds a lot more hydrophobic characteristics; further reducing chances of water sitting on the paint and the minerals embedding.

Opie55 · 10-05-2020, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMMM6GC

Yeah ceramic coatings don't prevent water spotting - see this video where CSL is being tested against the newer graphene coatings hitting the market. As a top protectant layer, they certainly shouldn't be enhancing the effects of water spotting, but are there to lessen the damage to your clearcoat (also to make routine cleaning easier).

In the video linked above, the hard water spots were ultimately only removed by polishing off the coating, which is better than polishing away clear.

Did you top your CSL with another coating by any chance? Exo is the recommended one and adds a lot more hydrophobic characteristics; further reducing chances of water sitting on the paint and the minerals embedding.

Yes, I topped it with EXO. But no, what I am saying is that those hydrophobic topcoats absolutely do enhance spotting - in a very major way. I have confirmed it on a pro detailers forum, and you can look on YouTube for a video called "The Dark Side of Ceramic Coatings" or some similar title. The prevailing theory is that because they cause tight droplets, the minerals are concentrated and held in place. Again - I have 30 years of parking cars in the same place under the same conditions with zero spotting until the ceramic coat was applied.

MMMM6GC · 10-05-2020, 01:12 PM

Fair enough - I'll keep an eye on it as I've recently applied CSL + EXO. I had major water spot issues and clearcoat damage before this as the paint on my car was certainly not cared for during previous ownership. Lots of compounding + polishing got it to an acceptable level. Hopefully garage storing will help long term but I'll be reviewing how CSL performs over the next year. I don't want to have to immediately wash the car after a drive on wet roads...

xxTHIR13ENxx · 10-05-2020, 01:30 PM

Wow, sounds horrible, and I'm sorry you're dealing with this after detailing, but SO glad you shared this.
Was considering a paint-correction and coating but I park on the streets at work, so yeah, not happening...

- Leo.

DMike · 10-05-2020, 01:52 PM

I applied csl + exo about a year ago and it still performs very well. Over here we wash our cars with regular, drinkable tap water that is relatively soft. No spotting so far, even though I have done several rinse only-no drying washes.

Opie55 · 10-05-2020, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DMike

I applied csl + exo about a year ago and it still performs very well. Over here we wash our cars with regular, drinkable tap water that is relatively soft. No spotting so far, even though I have done several rinse only-no drying washes.

The softness makes a big difference I'm sure.

JBF650 · 10-05-2020, 07:18 PM

well this is very interesting and sorry to read you've had such trouble with ceramic coatings and residual spray drying Opie. I was initially very sceptical of all this ceramic coating till I had my 6er buffed and surface prepared then ceramic coated. The job was frankly outstanding, I was super impressed with the results. I live in Sydney so perhaps our water isn't as 'hard' as where you are. I've never had a problem with water spotting at all since ceramic coating. Washing is a breeze and the beeding even after 14 months is sensational. I usually wash my car each week. While the 7 year guarantee they gave seems a bit unrealistic for the last year its been very good. I would say another year and id look to have it polished and ceramic coated again.

SilverSlug · 10-06-2020, 06:49 AM

So would a graphene coating on top of a ceramic coat help prevent water spotting?

Or is it better to use just a graphene coat by itself?

Opie55 · 10-06-2020, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBF650

well this is very interesting and sorry to read you've had such trouble with ceramic coatings and residual spray drying Opie. I was initially very sceptical of all this ceramic coating till I had my 6er buffed and surface prepared then ceramic coated. The job was frankly outstanding, I was super impressed with the results. I live in Sydney so perhaps our water isn't as 'hard' as where you are. I've never had a problem with water spotting at all since ceramic coating. Washing is a breeze and the beeding even after 14 months is sensational. I usually wash my car each week. While the 7 year guarantee they gave seems a bit unrealistic for the last year its been very good. I would say another year and id look to have it polished and ceramic coated again.

But does your car get water on it other than rainwater, that is allowed to dry on the surface without being wiped off? Mine did not spot from washing, because I dry wash water off right away. It spotted from a sprinkler system.

NytWolf · 10-06-2020, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverSlug

So would a graphene coating on top of a ceramic coat help prevent water spotting?

Or is it better to use just a graphene coat by itself?

The important thing to remember about water spotting is to know what water spotting is. Water spotting is the deposit of minerals after the water has evaporated away. If you have hard water, you will always have water spots. That is, if you don't rinse and dry the paint.

Ceramic coats is great for its hydrophobic properties. That property is also its greatest weakness. It beads water so well that it traps dirt from the vehicle's surface and minerals in city water into the water bead. When the water evaporates, the dirt and minerals are left behind.

Graphene's biggest improvement over ceramic is its claimed ability to disperse heat. With this ability, it is claimed to "prevent" water spots. Sure, if its claim is true, you may have less water spotting, but you will still have some.

IMO, you might have less water spotting overall, but left to the elements, no coating is going to prevent any water spots.

MMMM6GC · 10-06-2020, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverSlug

So would a graphene coating on top of a ceramic coat help prevent water spotting?

Or is it better to use just a graphene coat by itself?

Graphene coatings are a type of protective coating with graphene "shavings" (basically a powder form) added to a chemical mix. For example, Dr. Beasely's have been experimenting for 6 years with adding graphene into their ceramic coating mix and have not come out with a product that boasts better characteristics than their ceramic coatings, especially for the additional cost of the graphene additive. Other companies may claim different but this is a new area of research (read: hype) and lots of products are hitting the market to cash in - some are as bad as literally dying black a regular coating so it appears to have graphene in it. Some may be good - but we don't know the long term benefits vs ceramic coatings which have been on the market for a while.

Different ceramic coatings also have different layer-ability. For example CSL is not meant to be layered - i.e. adding a second coat is not possible as it won't chemically bond to the CSL layer below it to offer any benefit. Currently I'm not aware of any graphene coating designed to be added on top of a ceramic coat. You have to remember - the ceramic coat is meant as protective layer which is supposed to prevent substances/contaminants/chemicals bonding to it - i.e to make cleaning easier and protect your top coat. Adding a graphene coating will likely not stick to the ceramic below or produce unintended characteristics. FYI for increase water beading on top of a ceramic coat, you can use a spray on sealant.

All the more reason this water spotting issue is disappointing.

Opie55 · 10-06-2020, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NytWolf

The important thing to remember about water spotting is to know what water spotting is. Water spotting is the deposit of minerals after the water has evaporated away. If you have hard water, you will always have water spots. That is, if you don't rinse and dry the paint.

Ceramic coats is great for its hydrophobic properties. That property is also its greatest weakness. It beads water so well that it traps dirt from the vehicle's surface and minerals in city water into the water bead. When the water evaporates, the dirt and minerals are left behind.

Graphene's biggest improvement over ceramic is its claimed ability to disperse heat. With this ability, it is claimed to "prevent" water spots. Sure, if its claim is true, you may have less water spotting, but you will still have some.

IMO, you might have less water spotting overall, but left to the elements, no coating is going to prevent any water spots.

I realize what water spotting is, but it is not true that I "will always have water spots" if the water is hard - or at least not with the hardness we have here. That's my whole point. In 30 years of sprinklers hitting my cars, not once, not ever have I thought "I have water spots on my paint." And because of a project we have going on, my wife's car has been parked right by mine all summer. Hers has no ceramic coat and also has no water spots. None.

thebmw · 10-06-2020, 01:53 PM

As stated earlier, water spots are from hard water (calcium and other stuff) or soft water (sodium and other stuff). Either way, it's from minerals in water. I have both problems (really hard water thus really soft water after it is conditioned). So I can't wash my car the traditional way at home.

The real question is not whether water spots will happen, it is whether coatings of any kind offer a protective layer that prevents the water spots from permanently penetrating the clear coat. I believe they do, including simple wax. I learned the hard way many years ago that water spots do permanently penetrate clear coat if it has not been really well protected with some kind of coating.

xxTHIR13ENxx · 10-06-2020, 02:50 PM

This may be slightly off topic, but it relates to water spots, so maybe slightly on-topic still...

Anyways, I saw this video a while back and decided to give it a go. Washed the car, rinsed like I normally do and before drying I applied the wax as you dry, and wouldn't you know it, it worked great!

The water here in South Florida is ridiculous, and I always had horrible water spots after drying the car.
I'll be doing this method from now on.. just thought I would share.

- Leo.

10-05-2020, 09:05 AM	#1
Opie55 Colonel 1195 Rep 2,906 Posts Drives: '15 650i Convertible Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: US iTrader: (0)	A warning about ceramic coatings I learned a lesson I wish I had known in advance. The lesson is this - If your car is EVER parked in a location where it can get city water (not rainwater) on it that will dry there, like somewhere near a sprinkler system, do not get a ceramic coat (or at least not Crystal Serum Light, although my understanding is that they will all behave the same). I have parked my cars the same way in the same place for 30 years and never once had an issue with hard water spots. I put Crystal Serum Light on in April and now I have to buff it off and go back to wax. The water spotting is like nothing you've ever seen. It's almost comical how bad it is. Apparently this effect of ceramic coats is well known in the detailing world but mostly kept a little secret. And don't believe the hundreds of online sources that vinegar will remove them. It does not even touch these, and even if it did how often do you want to do that? Ceramic coats, for all the hype, are really for cars that are babied. But just one time with city water in the sun and it will likely be ruined. Last edited by Opie55; 10-05-2020 at 09:11 AM..
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10-05-2020, 09:14 AM	#2
Frupal Mad Fiddler 792 Rep 991 Posts Drives: 2016 BMW 640i GC Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Los Angeles iTrader: (1)	Sorry to hear you're having this issue, but very glad to know about it. Hard water spots drive me nuts!
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10-05-2020, 10:49 AM	#4
MMMM6GC First Lieutenant 275 Rep 333 Posts Drives: M6 GC Join Date: Nov 2019 Location: USA iTrader: (4)	Yeah ceramic coatings don't prevent water spotting - see this video where CSL is being tested against the newer graphene coatings hitting the market. As a top protectant layer, they certainly shouldn't be enhancing the effects of water spotting, but are there to lessen the damage to your clearcoat (also to make routine cleaning easier). In the video linked above, the hard water spots were ultimately only removed by polishing off the coating, which is better than polishing away clear. Did you top your CSL with another coating by any chance? Exo is the recommended one and adds a lot more hydrophobic characteristics; further reducing chances of water sitting on the paint and the minerals embedding.
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10-05-2020, 01:12 PM	#6
MMMM6GC First Lieutenant 275 Rep 333 Posts Drives: M6 GC Join Date: Nov 2019 Location: USA iTrader: (4)	Fair enough - I'll keep an eye on it as I've recently applied CSL + EXO. I had major water spot issues and clearcoat damage before this as the paint on my car was certainly not cared for during previous ownership. Lots of compounding + polishing got it to an acceptable level. Hopefully garage storing will help long term but I'll be reviewing how CSL performs over the next year. I don't want to have to immediately wash the car after a drive on wet roads...
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10-05-2020, 01:30 PM	#7
xxTHIR13ENxx First Lieutenant 209 Rep 315 Posts Drives: M6 Gran Coupe Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: Tamarac, FL iTrader: (1)	Wow, sounds horrible, and I'm sorry you're dealing with this after detailing, but SO glad you shared this. Was considering a paint-correction and coating but I park on the streets at work, so yeah, not happening... - Leo.
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10-05-2020, 01:52 PM	#8
DMike New Member 2 Rep 20 Posts Drives: BMW Z4 3.0i Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Helsinki, Finland iTrader: (0)	I applied csl + exo about a year ago and it still performs very well. Over here we wash our cars with regular, drinkable tap water that is relatively soft. No spotting so far, even though I have done several rinse only-no drying washes.
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10-05-2020, 07:18 PM	#10
JBF650 Second Lieutenant 116 Rep 248 Posts Drives: 2015 F13 LCI 650i Coupe Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Sydney Australia iTrader: (0)	well this is very interesting and sorry to read you've had such trouble with ceramic coatings and residual spray drying Opie. I was initially very sceptical of all this ceramic coating till I had my 6er buffed and surface prepared then ceramic coated. The job was frankly outstanding, I was super impressed with the results. I live in Sydney so perhaps our water isn't as 'hard' as where you are. I've never had a problem with water spotting at all since ceramic coating. Washing is a breeze and the beeding even after 14 months is sensational. I usually wash my car each week. While the 7 year guarantee they gave seems a bit unrealistic for the last year its been very good. I would say another year and id look to have it polished and ceramic coated again.
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10-06-2020, 06:49 AM	#11
SilverSlug Hey, where have you been all my life? 680 Rep 1,401 Posts Drives: 2011 M3 6MT Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: San Francisco, CA iTrader: (2)	So would a graphene coating on top of a ceramic coat help prevent water spotting? Or is it better to use just a graphene coat by itself?
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10-06-2020, 01:53 PM	#16
thebmw Post Advisor 1631 Rep 1,692 Posts Drives: More Manuals than Automatics Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Illinois iTrader: (10)	As stated earlier, water spots are from hard water (calcium and other stuff) or soft water (sodium and other stuff). Either way, it's from minerals in water. I have both problems (really hard water thus really soft water after it is conditioned). So I can't wash my car the traditional way at home. The real question is not whether water spots will happen, it is whether coatings of any kind offer a protective layer that prevents the water spots from permanently penetrating the clear coat. I believe they do, including simple wax. I learned the hard way many years ago that water spots do permanently penetrate clear coat if it has not been really well protected with some kind of coating.
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10-06-2020, 02:50 PM	#17
xxTHIR13ENxx First Lieutenant 209 Rep 315 Posts Drives: M6 Gran Coupe Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: Tamarac, FL iTrader: (1)	This may be slightly off topic, but it relates to water spots, so maybe slightly on-topic still... Anyways, I saw this video a while back and decided to give it a go. Washed the car, rinsed like I normally do and before drying I applied the wax as you dry, and wouldn't you know it, it worked great! The water here in South Florida is ridiculous, and I always had horrible water spots after drying the car. I'll be doing this method from now on.. just thought I would share. - Leo.
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