M6 vs 650i M Sport Package

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by LSM

When I lived in Chicago I owned and drove M5, M6 the previous generation, a CLS63 and some 7's all winter. Snow tires they went through everything perfectly no need for AWD

I had a 2000 540/2003 GS430/2006 550/2008 M5 all with snows and thought I did fine in the Chicago winter. Then I got an AWD car (well it is a truck) and wow, even with all seasons, I'm blown away. It is not just snow, it is the rain and other crappy weather we get here. The AWD provides the ability to move and move quickly when you need to. I've been bitten by the AWD bug - even though it does bother me that with most BMWs you lose the sport suspension and active steering (5/6/7 series) when you go with this feature. Still the weather is bad enough often enough that if I have to give up one thing, it is the suspension in return for AWD.

Originally Posted by Twitch Massacre

Somehow I find this question a bit pointless in my opinion. My wife drives a 640i GC and as fine a car as it is, it does not hold a candle to the M6 or any M for that matter. Forget the extra HP, that's besides the point. The driving dynamics in the Ms are what it is all about, if you can't appreciate that then the M6 is just not for you (my wife included). The CF roof holds a practical purpose, it's not just there to look at (and I have to say on the F13 it's the best looking roof I've seen on a GT). The adaptive suspension, steering, throttle response have all been meticulously designed and optimized for each style of driving. And the M-DCT is the perfect pair for the S63TU. How can anyone prefer an 8 speed (torque converter) automatic to an automated dual clutch for sports driving? Enough of the aggressiveness was lost in phasing out the SMG III anyways, and yet with the smoothness of the M-DCT the M6 is finally every bit as good for daily driving as the non-M cars. For as much "spice" as M cars have lost over the years they are still the finest cars BMW produces. Every time I get a loaner it spends it's time garaged. There is just no going back. OP, if you simply want to get from point A to point B in a fine German automobile then get the 650i, you'll love it, but if you're looking to DRIVE, to really be immersed in an experience and be in control, then you know where to look. I'm sure by now you know exactly what you're looking for in a car and why.

The pro/con with a SMG and DCT is that the computer is doing the thinking for you. That's GREAT when you need it to shift lightning fast but not so good when you are slowing to a stop and then suddenly need to go. Now the computer has the clutch and is thinking "is he stopping or going?". My comments (and those of C&D) where the automatic is preferred somewhat to the DCT (RS7 vs. S7) deal with this exact issue. There are plenty of people on the Audi board who have had near death experiences when they needed the car to go and it didn't go - at least for a second or two - which of course feels like a lifetime when a truck is barreling down on you.

Oh and I had a 2008 M5 (manual btw) and a 2006 550 (automatic) and I preferred the 550. The M5 might have handled a little better, but I was not taking it to the track and the torque.. wow, the car (M5) had no torque. They have fixed that in the new one and damn, it is good looking, but I think I would still take it in stick oh and with AWD

['17 750i Msport]

Originally Posted by LSM

When I lived in Chicago I owned and drove M5, M6 the previous generation, a CLS63 and some 7's all winter. Snow tires they went through everything perfectly no need for AWD

I meant stock from the showroom, but yes, a good winter/tire package is a must in the northeast. Had Blizzak's on a 911 S and they handled the snow pretty good. But once the snowfall exceeded 5 or 6 inches ground clearance was an issue. I got tired of swapping the winter packages every winter. It certainly changes the dynamics of the car and if you get lucky with a mild winter it was a waste.

[GreyCoupe]

The V8 coupe with the sport package is the sweet spot for me. Sporty GT, not sports car. While the M6 fits this description too, it is a step more towards sports car. I find the M Sport package just right.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by mrjoed2

To add my 2 cents as I am waiting for my ED 650 Sport edition redelivery. The 650 has a couple advantages IMO. First colors, I wanted red, can't get it in the M6, orange is closest. No thanks. Losing the gorgeous sunroof is another minus with the M6. And I think the award winning ZF 8 speed auto is a better all around tranny than the DCT. Lastly love the LED fogs on the 650 - gone on the M6.

You mean CF roof is not as nice as sunroof or even nicer?
How do you compare ZF8 with DCT?

Originally Posted by mrjoed2

Well the roof option is certainly a matter of opinion. I would not have it under any circumstances. There is no fact the M6 is "significantly" better than the 650. It has 100 more HP but only 20 ft/lb more torque. Also will be installing the Burger tuning stage 1 to my 650 - which will bring me to 500hp and 510lb. And a price approx 20% higher is without a doubt quite a bit more for a M6. Not worth it IMO.

it's not just about power! the more important thing is how to manage and control that power and that's why you need sporty suspension and some fast transmission like DCT.

Originally Posted by mrjoed2

I just did a European Delivery on a 650 M Sport Edition. And would add for the difference between the 650 & M6 I can buy the wife a nice Honda Accord. And yes we can agree to disagree. BTW, If I was looking for the fastest street car around, I would have went for a Porsche 911 Turbo - would eat any M car. But wanted a luxury V8 GT.

I don't know why you and other people talk about 911TT while the discussion is about BMW 6 series which is a GT car! I mean the one who wants 6 series has a reason cannot be compared with a 2 seats sport car like 911. and also you have to pay alot to get 911 TT or TTS.

please read my quote on other thread:

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

And also there are lots of difference between M6 and 650. Since I have experience with two cars (I owned/own 650i M-Sport package and M6) , I can tell you the difference. Beside the aggressive look (front, rear, those big rotors and brilliant calipers) , power, torque, steering, suspension, throttle response, differential and transmission are totally different. The transmission by itself makes two car completely different. ZF8 is really awesome transmission. it's smooth and fast, but not as fast as DCT when you want to change the gear manually or it changes in automatic. overall 650i/640i are luxury cars and M6 is sport-luxury car .... Oh I forgot to say about amazing MDM mode

and +1000 to whatever LSM said

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

You mean CF roof is not as nice as sunroof or even nicer?

???? I'm kind of confused by this. Can you see through the CF roof? If not, then it is not nicer. The M6 GC is one of the darkest interiors I've ever been in. The lack of sunroof in that car removes it from my list and many other's list. So no, it is not as nice - in fact, the painted roof and black sunroof look better - to me at least.

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

How do you compare ZF8 with DCT?

Most would say that the ZF8 is superior for daily driving. The DCT blows it away on the track of course, but I'm thinking that most of us spend our time on the street.

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

it's not just about power! the more important thing is how to manage and control that power and that's why you need sporty suspension and some fast transmission like DCT.

None of that matters in a Chicago winter. I'll take on any M6 from Nov-March here But seriously, the 650 is pretty doggy off the line. I would hope the M6 does not have the lag - the way the turbos are plumbed should eliminate most of that.

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

I don't know why you and other people talk about 911TT while the discussion is about BMW 6 series which is a GT car! I mean the one who wants 6 series has a reason cannot be compared with a 2 seats sport car like 911. and also you have to pay alot to get 911 TT or TTS.

I would expect the M6 and M6GC to be compared to the 911 and not the 911TT. In that case just like all of your points above such as
"it's not just about power! the more important thing is how to manage and control that power and that's why you need sporty suspension and some fast transmission like DCT."
go against the M6 and go in favor of the more nimble 911.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by doug_999

???? I'm kind of confused by this. Can you see through the CF roof? If not, then it is not nicer. The M6 GC is one of the darkest interiors I've ever been in. The lack of sunroof in that car removes it from my list and many other's list. So no, it is not as nice - in fact, the painted roof and black sunroof look better - to me at least.


Most would say that the ZF8 is superior for daily driving. The DCT blows it away on the track of course, but I'm thinking that most of us spend our time on the street.


None of that matters in a Chicago winter. I'll take on any M6 from Nov-March here But seriously, the 650 is pretty doggy off the line. I would hope the M6 does not have the lag - the way the turbos are plumbed should eliminate most of that.


I would expect the M6 and M6GC to be compared to the 911 and not the 911TT. In that case just like all of your points above such as
"it's not just about power! the more important thing is how to manage and control that power and that's why you need sporty suspension and some fast transmission like DCT."
go against the M6 and go in favor of the more nimble 911.

All of your comments are just preference and I think your car (650i Xdrive GC) is the best choice for you! my mentality is different!
According to your last comment (911 compare to M6GC) , how do you want to compare a 3000 lb, small (176" long), rear engine, 2 door, Sport car with a 4400 lb, big (197" long), front engine, 4 door, GT car? which part is comparable?

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

All of your comments are just preference and I think your car (650i Xdrive GC) is the best choice for you! my mentality is different!

Totally agree. Was just showing that both of our comments are preference.

Except for the sunroof (j/k)

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

According to your last comment (911 compare to M6GC) , how do you want to compare a 3000 lb, small (176" long), rear engine, 2 door, Sport car with a 4400 lb, big (197" long), front engine, 4 door, GT car? which part is comparable?

Each of those cars is not only cross shopped, but compared against each other over and over (Car mags, boards, etc.). Even BMW is guilty of this as witnessed by their brochure that says
"a machine by and for those who must go further, faster.....when you unleash it on curves, you will gain a sense of control you've never experienced before. You will be able to feel both its precision uniting with its beautifully engineered high performance...."

So the comparison here is that they are both sports cars, both cost about the same, and well, considered in the same segment by most people.

(ultimately I agree with you - two very different cars - just pointing out the world doesn't see it our way).

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

All of your comments are just preference and I think your car (650i Xdrive GC) is the best choice for you! my mentality is different!

Originally Posted by doug_999

Totally agree. Was just showing that both of our comments are preference. Except for the sunroof (j/k)

Your's were preference not mine Seriously, all of my comments are about performance and they are referring to the purpose of an M car even the CF roof will reduce the weight to improve the performance of M car (powerful, light and fast); Now if you don’t want that performance, it means you don’t need M car. Simple , but if you drive the M6 for couple hours, you will feel what I’m talking about.

You referred to Chicago winter and I agree with you that maybe M6 is not a good choice for that weather and that’s why I said 650i Xdrive GC is the best choice for you, but my original quote was on other member’s quotes in this thread “ M6 vs 650i M Sport Package” comparing two cars and commenting to save money by tuning the 650i M Sport package to get extra HP and torque. My point is even having the same power does not mean the same handling! I saw a guy who had a tuned Camaro with 700+ HP and I asked him about his car to compare with my previous 650i. He simply said 650i can catch him easily in every aspect (due to traction/handling issue his car had because of that 700+ HP) except high speed!. The same thing here... A tuned 650i even with M Sport package does not have the same handling M6 has.
As far as sunroof, they were talking about look, not seeing through and IMO, CF roof is much nicer (more good looking) than sunroof!

Again, 650i is a beautiful, nice, luxury car and M6 is a powerful Sport-luxury car. Two different animals for two different tastes. Anyone who has/had both cars can tell you the significant difference easily.

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

According to your last comment (911 compare to M6GC) , how do you want to compare a 3000 lb, small (176" long), rear engine, 2 door, Sport car with a 4400 lb, big (197" long), front engine, 4 door, GT car? which part is comparable?

Originally Posted by doug_999

Each of those cars is not only cross shopped, but compared against each other over and over (Car mags, boards, etc.). Even BMW is guilty of this as witnessed by their brochure that says "a machine by and for those who must go further, faster.....when you unleash it on curves, you will gain a sense of control you've never experienced before. You will be able to feel both its precision uniting with its beautifully engineered high performance...." So the comparison here is that they are both sports cars, both cost about the same, and well, considered in the same segment by most people.(ultimately I agree with you - two very different cars - just pointing out the world doesn't see it our way).

How does anyone in the planet want to compare a big heavy muscle car to a small light sport car which is 1400 lb lighter and 23” shorter??? How do you expect the same handling on curves? I really don’t know people criteria (I mean those car mags), but to me it does not make sense at all! You should agree with me in this (hopefully)

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Your's were preference not mine Seriously, all of my comments are about performance and they are referring to the purpose of an M car even the CF roof will reduce the weight to improve the performance of M car (powerful, light and fast); Now if you don’t want that performance, it means you don’t need M car. Simple , but if you drive the M6 for couple hours, you will feel what I’m talking about.

You wrote "You mean CF roof is not as nice as sunroof or even nicer?". The fact is that many of us prefer the sunroof over the CF roof and many prefer it the other way. So the CF roof is a preference

Even worse, if BMW was really serious about the M6 they would do something real about the weight and not do gimmicky things like the CF roof. I'm betting that if you could get a M6 or M6GC without sunroof it would perform almost exactly the same as one with a CF roof.

But I digress

As for the 911 and M6 - well they are both 4 seat $100K sports cars, so they are going to be compared to each other.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by doug_999

You wrote "You mean CF roof is not as nice as sunroof or even nicer?". The fact is that many of us prefer the sunroof over the CF roof and many prefer it the other way. So the CF roof is a preference

You can prefer Toyota over Ferrari, but it doesn’t change the fact

Originally Posted by doug_999

Even worse, if BMW was really serious about the M6 they would do something real about the weight and not do gimmicky things like the CF roof. I'm betting that if you could get a M6 or M6GC without sunroof it would perform almost exactly the same as one with a CF roof. But I digress

Actually they did a good job to reduce the weight. They replaced most of the mechanical steal parts with aluminum. Even the body! M6 (and 6 series) have aluminum door/ quarter panel and hood. Fenders and trunk are plastic. The forged light rims help to reduce the weight as well. There is no frame and in fact the unibody beside the rear and front sub-frames act like frame! Look at the picture I attached…

Carbon roof.
Ultra lightweight with finesse. The contoured roof made of CFRP high-tech material effectively lowers the weight and centre of gravity for even better driving characteristics. Whether in motor racing or in aviation – wherever maximum performance has to be supplied with minimum weight under extreme conditions, carbon-fibre reinforced plastic is employed. In the BMW M6 Coupé, this innovative composite material with its outstanding properties guarantees a maximum of stability and protection. The lower weight reduces the vehicle’s centre of gravity – the basis for even more precise handling and higher speeds when cornering. Dynamic contours follow the ideal line of characteristic M design, thus giving the roof an elongated appearance. The BMW M6 Coupé appears to lie even lower and more firmly on the road
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...ontop.html#t=l
For sure the next generations of all Sport cars will have more CF.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by doug_999

As for the 911 and M6 - well they are both 4 seat $100K sports cars, so they are going to be compared to each other.

So based on your logic, why don’t you or anybody compare MB S63 or E63 or CLS63 or Porsche Panamera turbo S or GTR or …. To 911? All have 4 seats and 100K+… correct?

[davuusM6GC]

Originally Posted by Twitch Massacre

Somehow I find this question a bit pointless in my opinion. My wife drives a 640i GC and as fine a car as it is, it does not hold a candle to the M6 or any M for that matter. Forget the extra HP, that's besides the point. The driving dynamics in the Ms are what it is all about, if you can't appreciate that then the M6 is just not for you (my wife included). The CF roof holds a practical purpose, it's not just there to look at (and I have to say on the F13 it's the best looking roof I've seen on a GT). The adaptive suspension, steering, throttle response have all been meticulously designed and optimized for each style of driving. And the M-DCT is the perfect pair for the S63TU. How can anyone prefer an 8 speed (torque converter) automatic to an automated dual clutch for sports driving? Enough of the aggressiveness was lost in phasing out the SMG III anyways, and yet with the smoothness of the M-DCT the M6 is finally every bit as good for daily driving as the non-M cars. For as much "spice" as M cars have lost over the years they are still the finest cars BMW produces. Every time I get a loaner it spends it's time garaged. There is just no going back. OP, if you simply want to get from point A to point B in a fine German automobile then get the 650i, you'll love it, but if you're looking to DRIVE, to really be immersed in an experience and be in control, then you know where to look. I'm sure by now you know exactly what you're looking for in a car and why.

This post is what makes me think twice about getting anything but the M6!!! If money wasn't an issue....

[Bönz]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

There is no frame and in fact the unibody beside the rear and front sub-frames act like frame!

All modern cars are built like this. In most cases sub-frames do add structural rigidity to the unibody.

The CF roof of the M6 does a better job of lowering the center of gravity than saving weight. If I recall the weight reduction is about 32 pounds over the glass power sunroof, not much on a 4200 pound car, but it's off the top which helps lower CG. In fact, BMW lists unlaiden weight of the M6 at only 20 pounds less than the 650i. I can gain and lose that much weight just by skipping dessert. More to the point, this difference can change based on options.

What really makes the M6 the M6 is the S63 engine, DCT and its suspension tune.

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

So based on your logic, why don’t you or anybody compare MB S63 or E63 or CLS63 or Porsche Panamera turbo S or GTR or …. To 911? All have 4 seats and 100K+… correct?

sigh...
the 911 and M6 are two door cars....

The E63/Panamera/M5 are four door cars...

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Bönz

All modern cars are built like this. In most cases sub-frames do add structural rigidity to the unibody.

The CF roof of the M6 does a better job of lowering the center of gravity than saving weight. If I recall the weight reduction is about 32 pounds over the glass power sunroof, not much on a 4200 pound car, but it's off the top which helps lower CG. In fact, BMW lists unlaiden weight of the M6 at only 20 pounds less than the 650i. I can gain and lose that much weight just by skipping dessert. More to the point, this difference can change based on options.

What really makes the M6 the M6 is the S63 engine, DCT and its suspension tune.

Actually I was referring to the nice job BMW did to lower the weight by removing the frame of this big car like what you said all modern cars built like this. I think for this size and this performance this is the lowest weight cab be achieved.
Agree about Center of Gravity and that’s why I posted the link referring to both weight and center of gravity.
Beside the engine, transmission and suspension you mentioned, I believe the differential (Avtive M LSD differential), steering and braking systems are also major factors to make M6.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by doug_999

I would expect the M6 and M6GC to be compared to the 911 and not the 911TT. In that case just like all of your points above such as
"it's not just about power! the more important thing is how to manage and control that power and that's why you need sporty suspension and some fast transmission like DCT."
go against the M6 and go in favor of the more nimble 911.

Originally Posted by doug_999

sigh...
the 911 and M6 are two door cars....

The E63/Panamera/M5 are four door cars...

Ok, at least M6GC is out of comparison now since it's 4 door
Now you are going by door 911 vs M6 coupe!
Still different cars even if they have the same numbers of doors... Sport vs GT

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Actually I was referring to the nice job BMW did to lower the weight by removing the frame of this big car like what you said all modern cars built like this. I think for this size and this performance this is the lowest weight cab be achieved.

Didn't the M6 gain almost 500 lbs between the E63 and the F12?

I really hope BMW doesn't think the same way you do. Because I'm positive they can do better (and I suspect they know it too based on what happened with the new M3/M4 losing weight rather than gaining).

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by doug_999

Didn't the M6 gain almost 500 lbs between the E63 and the F12?

500 lb ???? really?? you mean E63 or E64? I thought E64 was 4400 lb and F12 is 4500 lb !!!!

E64:
http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-M6-2010/specs/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M6
http://www.edmunds.com/bmw/m6/2009/f...tyle=101109234

F12:
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...fications.aspx

I think we have to compare Coupe to Coupe and Convertible to Convertible correct?
FYI F12/F13 are bigger than E63/E64 and has more power and torque and is much faster

I really can't understand your logics at all; however I'm trying
Why are you comparing different cars all the time when there are not the same? E63 and F12 have just one common word .... M6 Convertible ...
are they the same car? same engine? same drive train? the same power and torque? suspension and steering? interior and exterior? the same options?
Dude, I'm again confused...
Unfortunately people think a lighter car is always faster... yes it's faster but if it has more power and if it's controllable/drivable ... you can put the S63 engine on E92 body and call it faster than M6, but is that car drivable? or need thousands of dollars to design specific suspension, drivetrain and .... to be able to be driven! it's not just weight and power... have you ever driven C5 or C6 Corvette? powerful + light with no traction for low dollar... now your favorite car (911) power + light + traction... twice the price for 911 base

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

500 lb ???? really?? you mean E63 or E64? I thought E64 was 4400 lb and F12 is 4500 lb !!!!

E64:
http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-M6-2010/specs/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M6
http://www.edmunds.com/bmw/m6/2009/f...tyle=101109234

F12:
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...fications.aspx

I think we have to compare Coupe to Coupe and Convertible to Convertible correct?
FYI F12/F13 are bigger than E63/E64 and has more power and torque and is much faster

I really can't understand your logics at all; however I'm trying
Why are you comparing different cars all the time when there are not the same? E63 and F12 have just one common word .... M6 Convertible ...
are they the same car? same engine? same drive train? the same power and torque? suspension and steering? interior and exterior? the same options?
Dude, I'm again confused...
Unfortunately people think a lighter car is always faster... yes it's faster but if it has more power and if it's controllable/drivable ... you can put the S63 engine on E92 body and call it faster than M6, but is that car drivable? or need thousands of dollars to design specific suspension, drivetrain and .... to be able to be driven! it's not just weight and power... have you ever driven C5 or C6 Corvette? powerful + light with no traction for low dollar... now your favorite car (911) power + light + traction... twice the price for 911 base

I forgot that the vert preceded the coupe - so I meant the F13 vs. the E63. The E63 has a weight (depending on where you get your sources from) anywhere between 3,770 and 3,909 and the F13 has a weight of 4,255 per the bmw website. So... the M6 Coupe has gained between 346 to 485 lbs. So... BMW did not do a nice job lowering the weight.

And I assure you that if BMW were to lower the weight of the M6, it would perform better.

PS - now we are talking corvettes? Interesting. Once again, the 911 and the M6 are cross shopped and considered in the same segment - two door, four seat sports cars costing $100K. You can question it all you want, but it is the fact and once again, to be clear, if you read my posts, I said "ultimately I agree with you - two very different cars - just pointing out the world doesn't see it our way"

peace out

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by doug_999

I forgot that the vert preceded the coupe - so I meant the F13 vs. the E63. The E63 has a weight (depending on where you get your sources from) anywhere between 3,770 and 3,909 and the F13 has a weight of 4,255 per the bmw website. So... the M6 Coupe has gained between 346 to 485 lbs. So... BMW did not do a nice job lowering the weight.

And I assure you that if BMW were to lower the weight of the M6, it would perform better.

PS - now we are talking corvettes? Interesting. Once again, the 911 and the M6 are cross shopped and considered in the same segment - two door, four seat sports cars costing $100K. You can question it all you want, but it is the fact and once again, to be clear, if you read my posts, I said "ultimately I agree with you - two very different cars - just pointing out the world doesn't see it our way"

peace out

hopefully you read my previous post ...
BMW made a bigger and more powerful car (F13 vs E63) which is heavier to met the requirement (power and handling). They could build it lighter? Maybe yes by using more CF like the driveshaft, trunklid,...they did for M3/M4 or what they did for i8 and build a CF unibody! I don't know M6 needs or it's practical, but for sure CF increases the price significantly! maybe it's engineering or marketing point...

Again, M6 is not a 911's competitor .... peace out

[Bönz]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Actually I was referring to the nice job BMW did to lower the weight by removing the frame of this big car like what you said all modern cars built like this. I think for this size and this performance this is the lowest weight cab be achieved.
Agree about Center of Gravity and that’s why I posted the link referring to both weight and center of gravity.
Beside the engine, transmission and suspension you mentioned, I believe the differential (Avtive M LSD differential), steering and braking systems are also major factors to make M6.

I don't understand "removing the frame". Almost no car has had a frame for over 30 years, certainly not any BMW. Unibodies took over in the late 70s and 80s. You are correct on the LSD, and there are other minor differences as well, but my point is that the weight (due to CF roof or anything else) is not the primary difference between the M6 and 650.

I also disagree with your "lowest weight cab" comment. Full aluminum structures like those from Jaguar, Audi and on the Corvette are much lighter, regardless of size. Considering their size, the F13s are not light. BMW could most certainly build a lighter car that would still handle all the power they can throw at it. But it costs either money or content.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Bönz

I don't understand "removing the frame". Almost no car has had a frame for over 30 years, certainly not any BMW. Unibodies took over in the late 70s and 80s. You are correct on the LSD, and there are other minor differences as well, but my point is that the weight (due to CF roof or anything else) is not the primary difference between the M6 and 650.I also disagree with your "lowest weight cab" comment. Full aluminum structures like those from Jaguar, Audi and on the Corvette are much lighter, regardless of size. Considering their size, the F13s are not light. BMW could most certainly build a lighter car that would still handle all the power they can throw at it. But it costs either money or content.

If you read my previous quotes, I said the same things.
The thing is I was quoting other members' quote in this thread and you and another one quoted on my comments to "correct" me, missing my points. CF reducing the weight and center of gravity. this is just an example of reducing the weight not the only one. Unibody and removing the frame is another one. all of these help to reduce the weight. He said BMW did not a good job and was referring to the "good job" ... I mentioned the more CF to reduce the weight, increase the cost and exampled the i8 ... the only concern about extra weight is handling IMO and cost. that's why I compared Corvette with 911....

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

hopefully you read my previous post ...
BMW made a bigger and more powerful car (F13 vs E63) which is heavier to met the requirement (power and handling). They could build it lighter? Maybe yes by using more CF like the driveshaft, trunklid,...they did for M3/M4 or what they did for i8 and build a CF unibody! I don't know M6 needs or it's practical, but for sure CF increases the price significantly! maybe it's engineering or marketing point...

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Unfortunately people think a lighter car is always faster... yes it's faster but if it has more power and if it's controllable/drivable ... you can put the S63 engine on E92 body and call it faster than M6, but is that car drivable? or need thousands of dollars to design specific suspension, drivetrain and .... to be able to be driven! it's not just weight and power... have you ever driven C5 or C6 Corvette? powerful + light with no traction for low dollar... now your favorite car (911) power + light + traction... twice the price for 911 base