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| 05-19-2013, 01:35 AM | #23 |
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2013 M6 Coupe SG, VSE 003's 21, Akropovic Evo Carbon, KW V3, AMS DP's, Vorsteiner Full Aero, Gruppe M Intake, Bel Stir Plus & V1 with HP Laser Interceptors, P3Cars Gauges, JL 2X12W6Subs, 35%tints.
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| 05-19-2013, 05:00 AM | #24 | |
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now the same thing with just you in your car, time difference will be about 1-2secs max, for about 200kg weight difference, for the 150-300kmh time ( guessing 150-300kmh should be done in a 700hp sedan/Limo/coupe in about 18 secs, we speak about 10% maximum increased time by 150-200kg extra weight) Assuming you accelerat already before 150kmh, so the Car is already accelerating when reaching 150 kmh and you will see that the extra weight isnt a big facture, or almost no factor. Once the care is rolling and full accelerating in higher speed, the extra wait doesnt count mutch, as i said. Dry it with the v-box and you will find it out, on the real world. It is a different stroy when the cars are standing still or begining to accelerate, once in the forward movement of acceleration no big difference even with 200kg extra. high speed acceleration is mainly depending on the performance of the engine. (power available - power required = performance) (when drag, and gearing stay the same) and a 700 hp car must outrun a 500 hp porsche in a different way. i hate it to say but a 700hp amg, 5,5 liter biturbo would destroy a 500 hp 911 turbo.... never the less as i assuming you live near germany (or maybee in germany), we may should met up taken my v-box and i proof my statements on extra weight being a minor factor on highspeed acceleration. Either with my cars or with your doesnt matter. I am quiet often in the cologne aeria or Hamburg region with some perfect highways.. could be fun.. Last edited by m-ch; 05-19-2013 at 05:07 AM.. |
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| 05-19-2013, 09:56 AM | #25 | |
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But I would like you to explain me one thing... you said that a 700hp car should outrun a 500 hp car doesnt matter what it weighs.. now the 740HP rs6 got embarrased by the M6. If you would run the RS6 vs the porsche turbo, what would happen??? It wouldnt even see the porsche... oh no wait, the rs6 is not tuned by Manhart Racing so thats a different story right??Only cars by Manhart Racing dont have the power right? Then you would come up with some other nonsense explanations....on a side note, I also raced a 430 scuderia with the m6 and the scuderia has 10hp more and around 300kg less than the turbo pdk but guess what...the scuderia was left behind badly...how can you explain that? How can it be that a stronger and lighter ferrari is slower than the turbo pdk?? Dont worry, videos will be on youtube shortly! Since you are always so close to cologne, why dont you pass by in wuppertal and I can even offer you to drive the car yourself with v box!!! But no, I am sure you would never do that just as all the other haters that just write BS all over the forums... I am outta here... to all other members, apologies for my reaction but I am just sick of it that every single thread, video, post or anything that includes manhart racing gets spammed with some useless comments by some people that heard somenthing from somebody who heard something from somebdoy who heard somehing from somebody and so on!!! Last edited by Simon*X; 05-19-2013 at 12:07 PM.. |
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| 05-19-2013, 01:20 PM | #26 | |
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concerning the rs6 700hp+ i said if gearing is the same. Obvious 6 gear in the rs6 isn't up to date, as well the autotranny of this car neither, and doesnt help, same goes for the sl 65 amg black series with 5 gear... again weight is a minor factor on a steady acceleraton car, given the hardware externals are the same How mutch slower would your m5 700hp be with 3 persons on board vs 1 person on a high speed run 200-300kmh, as per yours understanding weight matters that much on high speed acceleration.. i doubt it would be more than 1-1,5 secs.. over 20 secs of acceleration Simone you can turn it the way like you want it. Most peolpe in german part got your attention by the big fail off your biturbo m3 with apparently 750 hp and was messured in the grip rtl2 chanel with about 5xx hp and lost to the golf hpg. I now heating was the problem (think so) but then again why taking part with a product witch still have some major bugs.. and will that happen on other products you make.. is this question so wrong.. No i dont pass at Wuppertal, as long you sold me a tune with more torque than the gearbox is made for. http://www.getrag.com/de/252 Now some tuning people will say there are safety margin etc, but in fact they don't now how the margin is applied by Getrag, every one is willing to hear what he wants to hear special when it comes to tuners and there clients.. I will be interested when you are able to offer a reinforced gearbox witch is appropriate to the torque your tunes claims. A good thing this forum is open to every one, and to every respectful thread and questions, as well to your business witch you trie to sell over here. You can call all people heaters witch are skeptical to your product, but you cant stopping us to ask question and to have doubts, on hp claims, on long life cycles on the tunes etc. At the end, i am happy for those witch are happy with your product or other tuning products, but to call people haters when digging a bit and asking questions, is far off from a serious company behave.. |
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| 05-19-2013, 01:42 PM | #27 | |
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Funny how you just keep on making up different explanations every time you are proven wrong. But I'm sure you believe that you are correct and that the Youtube videos don't prove anything and that for every car the MHR beats you have a new explanation why the other car was so slow. You are one funny guy  Why no comment from you on what Mr. Simon (not Simone) said about the races with the Ferrari? And why not take up the offer of a testride? After all it's not your car or gearbox, since you are so concerned about the gearbox... But, no I guess that would probably be a possibility to be proven wrong again... |
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| 05-19-2013, 02:06 PM | #28 | |
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lets try it out. Long story keep it short, when adapting the software on my gt2 by schmirler (rs-tuning) we did some on "street programming" and per se the car with 2 person and roughly 80kg fuel was just a tiny bit slower on high speed acceleration than the car with just me and minimum fuel... (that is the real world physic) and by the way a proper software tune should be done. I can highly recommend where ever you tune to get your tune adapted on the street by the tuner sitting next to you with his laptop onboard over the interface. Cost more but it is worth.. Why a test ride i know how 700 hp really fells on a gt2, it is fast believe me or not, what is the porpose for a test ride and small talk when i know that i do not tune one part of my m5f10, where there isnt solution for the other part, right now. Thats like people try to get testride cars by dealer, knowing they wont get the car anyway. Not realy fair not my cup of tea. Prove me to be wrong on the gearbox, how many km since tuning, how many hard acceleration, how many race start.... |
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| 05-19-2013, 03:02 PM | #29 | |
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One extra passenger (80kg) and 60kg of fuel is 140kg or a 9% weight increase. Difference between 1500kg and 2000kg is 500kg, or a weight difference (increase) of 33%. Still doesn't matter? |
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| 05-19-2013, 03:14 PM | #30 | |
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in my car schmirler programmer about 95kg and fuel about 70kg, total about 160-170kg difference equals 1 second over 18 sec accelerating.. so really minimum difference, witch you couldnt notice with out a gps device. |
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| 05-19-2013, 04:20 PM | #31 | |
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1 sec of 18 sec is 5,5%, the weight increase is 10% (just taking your numbers as given and not questioning them here). So an added weigth of 10% increases acceleration times with 5,5% (weigth makes a difference). 300kg should be a weight increase of approximately 18-20%. And, (just guessing here based on your numbers): An increase in acceleration times of roughly 11%. That means your 18 sec run takes two more seconds if the car weighs 18-20% more. Thats quite a lot... In fact 2 seconds is 140 meters at 250km/h. How many "car lengths" is that...??? If you had done your runs with two cars racing each other, instead of on your own in one car you would see that the car with low fuel and driver only, would be approximately 60-70 meters ahead (1 sec at 250km/h is 70 meters) of the car with more fuel and passenger after 18 seconds... (This a simplified presentation, not taking into account that the difference obviously doesn't suddenly happen at 250km/h but builds up over the entire run). So, even if you couldn't "feel" it, the difference would be very visible... I agree that you won't really "feel" the added weigth of a passenger, but that doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference. Increased weigth actually makes quite a big difference if you start looking at it, analyzing acceleration times. The bigger the weigth increase the bigger the impact. Weigth allways makes a difference during acceleration (unless you have found a way around Newtons laws of physics). The "problem" is that the human body is not able to tell the difference between an acceleration of 5m/s2 and 6m/s2 (just an example). You can tell the difference between 1G and 8G, but not between 3,5 or 4... But the object that accelerates faster gets to the finish faster, regardless of whether we can "feel" the difference. Last edited by Boss330; 05-19-2013 at 04:58 PM.. |
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| 05-20-2013, 03:50 AM | #32 |
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In short what you are saying is that weight only matters significantly from standstill and up to a certain speed, and after that speed weight suddenly makes no difference.
Let's try to keep it as simple as possible: You are riding your bicycle. Alone and cycling at 20km/h you start to accelerate and gain speed quite easily. Try to have a passenger on that bike and do the same. You sure weigth still doesn't make a difference at speed? Newtons second law clearly shows that the mass (weigth) of the accelerated body has a vital importance on the acceleration. Can't believe that we are actually discussing Newtons laws of physics and if they apply on acceleration at speed... |
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| 05-20-2013, 04:04 AM | #33 | |
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the energy you need for accelerate a weight when standing still is much higher then, once rolling, (let aside the drag) And in my measurement (a specific time frame ex 150kmh-300kmh) i am not only rolling, i am already full accelerating before 150kmh. Therefor the additional weight has almost no impact, and plays a minor role. on the other hand, two very same car from standstill up to 150 kmh, one light, the other heavy, (say 300kg difference) the time difference will be much higher ( in %) on that excersise than the one i did discribe above. other thing keep in mind the very same car ( weight and Power) in the very same place on the very same atmospheric condition will post on every single run (say 5 runs 150-300kmh) different results of about 2 secs. Various factor, internal heating, boost, etc.. plays a major rolle. |
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| 05-20-2013, 09:16 AM | #34 |
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Not sure why everyone is in arms about the numbers posted for the Manhart setup. I agree that it certainly is making more than stock, and as to how much who knows. But remember Automobile magazine here in the US took their stock M6 to a specialty shop (I think Telos engineering) who does engine design and dyno work for the big 3 and their car pulled 579 rear wheel hp. Now we all have seen the debates over how to properly dyno the new M engines and the whole Noele engineering thing related to that topic and also to the fact that they supposedly provide the tune for Manhart. All I can say is the factory car makes at least 600hp in optimum conditions and BMW is known to be conservative in their numbers. Also tuning this engine to make an additional 90-100hp with intake, exhaust, and software is not impossible or even unbelievable. My exhaust adds about 15hp (Akrapovic) and it seems the intake system offered in Japan and available from IND adds about the same so that means adding only 70hp. Dinan does that with the tune for the X5 and X6 M engines although they are not the 'tu' versions of our M cars.
And as for the argument over transmission specs and reliability well only BMW really knows that because they spec their transmission for their cars. The cars are specific, the cooling is specific, so you cannot just make a post from the Getrag website and assume those are the max numbers. Then again BMW does limit the torque to boost long term reliability. Peace, Noushy |
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| 05-20-2013, 12:27 PM | #35 | |||
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So, a object that is moving has inertia and therefor a resistance to change it's velocity (quantified by it's mass) unless an external force is applied that decelerates or accelerates that object. On a car that external force is either the brakes or the engine (and rolling resistance, aerodynamic drag etc). If we for one moment disregard aerodynamic forces working against acceleration: Then the exact same force is required to change the velocity from 10-11km/h as it is from 180-181km/h (notwithstanding aerodynamic drag). It doesn't matter if the body is moving at 10, 15, 100 or 200km/h. To accelerate it 1km/h takes the same amount of force. The only variable is the weight of the body that is being accelerated. If we analyze your "theory", any car will accelerate just as fast from 150km/h regardless of it's weigth, because somehow weight suddenly and magically doesn't make any difference... Let me reiterate Newtons second law: a=F/m Acceleration is determined by two factors and those factors only; The external Force(s) applied on the object divided by that objects mass (m). The external forces (F) is determined by engine power (minus transmission losses etc), which is the positive, or accelerative, force. On the other hand you have rolling resistance, aerodynamic drag etc. that is a negative force or a force working against the engines positive force. F is therefor a product of "Engine force - Negative forces" Ftotal = Fengine - Fnegative As you probably know, Fnegative will increase as speed increases due to higher aerodynamic drag, rolling resistance etc. That means that Ftotal gets smaller and smaller as speed builds. That is also the reason acceleration decreases as speeds build. Not because mass suddenly becomes insignificant, but because the engines power has to work against greater and greater external forces working against the accelerative force of the engine. When Ftotal divided on mass (m) becomes 1 you have no acceleration anymore. The mass (m) of the accelerated body is constant. Also since weight doesn't matter after 150km/h (according to your theory). Why doesn't the stock M6 run close or beat the 911 Turbo? After all the 911 Turbo S had 540hp and the M6 has 560hp. That should then mean that the M6 should outaccelerate the 911 Turbo S after 150km/h because the M6 is more powerful. Wonder why that doesn't happen... You might choose not to believe in Newtons laws on physics, but even at 150km/h the accelerated body needs to make a speed change to be accelerating. To make a speed change an external force needs to be applied. That external force needs to overcome the mass of the accelerated body to be able to accelerate it, regardless of at which speed you are doing the acceleration. To accelerate from 100-150 or from 150-200, the engine still has to accelerate the entire weight (mass) of the car. There is just no way around that fact, like it or not. A heavier car needs more power to be accelerated, at ANY speed. I will try one more really simple example for you: You have a water well you pick up water from with a bucket and a rope. The rope is attached to the bucket and you have a pulley with a lever on to lift up the bucket. First scenario: The bucket is empty and you start slow and gradually increases the speed you lift the bucket with (acceleration) Second scenario: The bucket is half full and you start slow and gradually increases the speed you lift the bucket with (acceleration) Third scenario: The bucket is full and you start slow and gradually increases the speed you lift the bucket with (acceleration) Which of these scenarioes will need the most power to lift and accelerate the bucket? And at what speed while lifting the bucket does the weight of the bucket stop making a difference in how much force you need to apply to keep on accelerating? Same principle applies to an accelerating car. The difference is that the aerodynamic forces are acting against acceleration on a car. Or, let's say that a fast moving train is moving at 200km/h and is accelerating up to 300km/h (note, it's moving at over 150km/h so that weight is not an issue  ). In the first scenario it's only the locomotive and no railroad cars behind it. In the second scenario it's the locomotive and 10 railroad cars behind it. According to your theories both scenarios should get to 300km/h using the same time... Not very likely is it? Let me finish by quoting: Quote:
Last edited by Boss330; 05-20-2013 at 03:49 PM.. |
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| 05-20-2013, 02:59 PM | #36 | |
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You later wrote that it's transmission isn't up to date anymore (6 speed auto vs 7 speed DCT). Tranmissions obviously makes a difference. So, let's say that the RS6 looses 50 more horsepower through the transmission than the M6. That should mean that the RS6 in reality is at 690"M6 hp". So, if they accelerate at allmost the same level then it would be safe to say that the M6 at least has 690hp. But it seemed like the MHR M6 outaccelerated the RS6 so maybe it even has more than 700hp... |
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| 05-20-2013, 03:46 PM | #37 | |
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my word was "it is a draw" on post 12 (go figure) so obviusly the boosted m6 should win against it. But turn it as you want to, or as you wish too.. Last edited by m-ch; 05-20-2013 at 04:01 PM.. |
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| 05-20-2013, 04:00 PM | #38 | |
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Have you ever try it out..the weight plays a minor roll, your engin is fighting against the drag, thats what slows us mostly down, on the high speed run What you think will be the factor of drag and factor of weight at hihgspeed to break us down. 10/1, 20/1, i dont know exactly but it must be huge towards the drag. and again if you have 3 people or 1 people in your car it doesent mattter mutch, ( you cant feel it) on high speed, acceleration, but has a big impact from standstill and lower speed.. coming back to the manhart m6 vs 911 pdk, that just doesnt look at 200hp difference, i do not believe it. Unless this very same car does 0-300 in about 27-29 secs flat, or 100-300 in about 23-26 secs. That must the terrain for the 700hp m6/m5 with 7 speed double clutch.. |
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| 05-20-2013, 08:32 PM | #39 |
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If we let aside the fact that Boss330's physics lectures OWNS everyone in this thread
 , why are we discussing acceleration from 150km/h when the cars in the videos start their runs at 50km/h? (A speed where I hope even m-ch would say weight has a big effect on acceleration)Considering that the Porsche gets the jump and pulls ahead during the first part of the race, the M6 must pack a pretty serious punch to be able to real it in and eventually pass it. Especially when you see how badly the stock M6 got beaten by the TT. It's not really fair to compare a stock M6 and a tuned M6 based on two different videos racing two different cars, but we can conclude that the Manhart M6 clearly is faster than a stock one. |
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| 05-21-2013, 01:15 AM | #40 | |
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If you really believe that, then there is no point arguing anymore as you clearly live in a world where the mass of the accelerated body does not matter during acceleration. Yes, aerodynamic drag obviously is a factor, which I have also explained above. But remember that both cars will have to overcome aerodynamic drag, so both have to deal with the same forces (depending on Cd). Porsche claims a Cd of 0,31 for the 911 Turbo and BMW claims 0,32 for the M6. So, even aerodynamic drag is smaller for the 911. The M6 has more weight and more aerodynamic drag to overcome than the 911... Let's try a different example (assuming similar aerodynamic coefficient of drag for both cars and not considering other factors): Acceleration from standstill: 100% engine power (F) is used to accelerate the mass 0% engine power is used to overcome aerodynamic drag (Fnegative) Acceleration from 80km/h: 80% engine power (F) is used to accelerate the mass 20% engine power is used to overcome aerodynamic drag (Fnegative) Acceleration from 160km/h: 40% engine power (F) is used to accelerate the mass 60% engine power is used to overcome aerodynamic drag (Fnegative) Acceleration from 250km/h: 20% engine power (F) is used to accelerate the mass 80% engine power is used to overcome aerodynamic drag (Fnegative) (note that these are just made up numbers and does not represent a specific vehicle) As you can see aerodynamic drag "eats up" more and more of the engines power, leaving less and less to cope with accelerating the mass of the vehicle. In the example at 250km/h above the Porsche would have 100hp available to accelerate the cars mass (20% of 500hp = 100hp). Do you seriously suggest that 300kg extra doesn't make any difference for those 100hp that is available to overcome the mass of the car? The MHR M6 would have 140hp available (20% of 700hp = 140hp). Power to weight ratio in this scenario: Porsche 100hp/1600kg = 0,0625 MHR M6 140hp/1900kg = 0,073 (Stock M6 would be 0,059 in this scenario and that also explains why that gets beaten by the Porsche) So, the MHR comes out slightly ahead of the Porsche on power available to accelerate the mass of the car at 250km/h. Which coincidentally also matches the results in the race between them... (and don't forget that the BMW actually has more drag resistance than the Porsche so it needs even more power to overcome the aero drag...) So, if aerodynamic drag is something both cars have to overcome in equeal measure (or rather, the BMW more than the Porsche). Then, what is the remaining factor that is different between the two cars? Oh, yeah. Weight!!! Put a small trailer that weighs 300kg behind the Porsche and see what happens (in a real world situation)... Last edited by Boss330; 05-21-2013 at 08:38 AM.. |
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| 05-21-2013, 01:23 AM | #41 | |
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Post # 18 is Franz Simon's reply to you that you will be surprised when you see the video between the RS6 and the MHR M6 Post # 19 is where you suddenly changes your mind and states that the RS6 is not any competition after all... So, in post # 19 you have knowledge of what Simon has said about the race between the MHR M6 and the MTM RS6. A bit strange that the RS6 then all of a sudden isn't any competition anymore... Why didn't you say that before? |
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| 05-21-2013, 02:41 AM | #42 | |
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- the reason why there are no advertisements on the m-forum is because we are not a sponsor and have no advertising rights there, as simple as that! On a side note, we havent started the thread here as also here we have no advertising rights so i am just commenting here without any kind of advertising. - What does it matter if WE seperated from Günther? It seems like you think that you know sooo much.. but in fact you dont know anything except things that some people may write on the forums. - of course you woulndnt pass by as you are afraid to be prooven wrong and then you wouldnt have any ammunition to bash every single thread anymore. - get your facts straight please. The link to the gearbox you have sent is the one for the e 9x M3 DCT which is rated 700NM. Yes basically the gearbox is the same, except some very essential things! A stock M5/M6 has 680NM and they do more on the dyno whereas the press cars are rated 720NM and do around 750NM, sometimes even more on the dyno. That doesnt make sense, does it? You think that BMW would use a Gearbox that in stock condition of the car is already at and even over its limit? - What do you have to say about the Race against the RS6 MTM? Soon there will also be a race published regarding a 458 and a 430 scuderia, as well as an M5 F10 vs a C63 Black Series. I am keen to hear your comments to that. - the Manhart M5 has covered over 30.000 Kilometers by now and the M6 was just finished before the event. So 1500 kilometers to sweden, around 25 races almost back to back on that day and another 1500 kilometers back. BTW, i have no clue why that Porsche Turbo PDK was so fast as it was faster then other even lighter cars with more hp... Dario, i am not here to argue or anything i just would like you to start respecting our work and if things are black on white then accepting it. Btw, you have PM. Last edited by Simon*X; 05-21-2013 at 02:48 AM.. |
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| 05-21-2013, 03:02 AM | #43 | |
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Anyway, by your logic, if you remove 300kg from a 700hp M6, how much faster do you think it would be from 50-270+kmh? Last edited by MJones3; 05-21-2013 at 11:34 AM.. |
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