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      05-15-2014, 02:07 AM   #1
michel lane
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Tune questions

Hi all , I have been reading the various articles about different providers who can supply a tune for the car .Does anyone know if any of the providers have actually access the ecu , to change the fuelling and ignition table for there tunes ?.

I am a little concerned on some of the tunes after looking at the AFR tables on the dyno runs . I know the BMW ecu are pretty good , so they will pull the ignition if it detects knock, but this also means pulling the power .

I have seen a stock dyno run and in 4th , the AFR drop to around 12-12.6 on boost all the way to the red line between 4k to 8k rpm.

On other dyno charts with various mods , I have seen the AFR hover between 13-14 on a wideband . Now this tells me that the tune does not apply any additional fuel when the boost is turned up . On other dyno'd runs I have seen the AFR between 14-16 , which is crazy!

From a a tuning point of view , I find this a little uncomfortable , as the EGT (exhaust gas temperatures)will be getting pretty hot, which means cats will be heating up and pistons will be reaching there limits.

Does anyone know if these engines have forged pistons and rods ? As they have a heat range to around 1200 degrees C .

The ecu will pull power , but the whole point of a tune is to increase power , so in a way you are adding more boost to increase power , but the ecu has to pull timing to reduce knock which means reduction in power.

When I was building single Supra's that ran around 600 to 800hp, we always looked at producing the biggest gains in hp and torque with the fuel and ignition tables , but reducing the amount of boost. More boost means more heat , which results to things going bang ! .

I am taking the car to a Dastek dyno on Saturday to get a reading , these are 4 wheel drive dyno and are pretty accurate, they give a good flywheel HP reading. I tend to use Dastek and dyno dynamics units as they provide a pretty accurate figure when compared to each other .In the Uk most decent dyno'd provide a flywheel reading and not whp unless you use a hub dyno, which will give you a Hub reading . The whole point of this exercise is to clarify the AFR readings and not the HP gains .

I have also recently purchased a BMS piggy back tune , so I can get some runs with and without the tune . This will give me an idea if the fuelling is modified from the AFR readings . If the AFR increases then I am tempted to put an after market Fuel pressure regulator to increase the fuelling on boost , unfortunately this will increase fuelling across the rev band , so my mpg will decrease but boost fuelling will stay within the 12 range .But on the other hand wait until someone can give me positive feedback on a tune that address the AFR readings and shows some accurate results on a dyno .

I will be monitoring , AFR , boost , hp and torque , to see if they are consistent with each other .

What are people's thoughts on this ?
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      05-15-2014, 02:25 AM   #2
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I saw this thread the other day. you may be interested:
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=805300

BTW please post the dyno(s) result when are done
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      05-15-2014, 07:24 AM   #3
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Interested in this. I know that GMD and LSM have had the same concerns when seeing other dyno sheets. I've held off installing the BMS until it gets worked out.

I don't need a ton of HP, but would like it if it is safe and helps the 0-60 and 1/4 times.
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      05-15-2014, 09:11 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BTF12M6 View Post

I don't need a ton of HP, but would like it if it is safe and helps the 0-60 and 1/4 times.
That's my concern too
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      05-15-2014, 04:33 PM   #5
michel lane
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I think the biggest problem with all these tuning houses is that they create a hype, for the individuals that have a power obsession with HP ! We call them in dyno queens , great figures for pub talk but when it come to reliability and real life performance , they fail .
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      05-16-2014, 11:32 AM   #6
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I agree, the tuners make a lot of claims, and many people here don't care how it's achieved or if the results are even real. Does the car monitor EGT? if not, you're correct, high AFRs will do major damage to aluminum parts... piston, heads, and turbo.

I don't trust tuner's claims without backing them up with before and after Dyno runs, disclaimer on octane used (pump gas is only 91 octane here in CA), factual info on what they are doing to achieve these results (are they disabling any of the engine's self protection features?), and better yet, real track info. Melt down a piston, head, or turbo and that mod can end up being very expensive. Most aggressive tunes and air/exhaust flow improvements will require larger injectors to bring the AFR down.
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      05-16-2014, 11:44 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BTF12M6 View Post
Interested in this. I know that GMD and LSM have had the same concerns when seeing other dyno sheets. I've held off installing the BMS until it gets worked out.

I don't need a ton of HP, but would like it if it is safe and helps the 0-60 and 1/4 times.
I can tell you this. I had mine set at only 2.25 which is super mild and lower than what most set there's at. I hit 590hp and 545lb ft at the wheels which is close to 678 crank hp...Im now running at 3.0 with 100 octane and 91 octane mixed 50/50...Its insanely fast and gonna dyno it soon before I turn the boost back down. Its a PITA with the fuel mix but its fast!!! LOL
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      05-16-2014, 11:45 AM   #8
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Hopefully we should get a starting block of a standard car running shell optimax 98. I am not sure how that compares to US rating ? . Unfortunately there is no way of testing the EGT as I don't have a probe installed on the exhaust housing . But the AFR will give a good indication if the ECU has O2 feedback and puts more fuel into the car at higher boost .

Does anyone now if the other tuning houses which don't use piggybacks actually address the fuel and ignition map ? Does anyone have dyno run with AFR readings of one of these tunes ? .
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      05-16-2014, 11:51 AM   #9
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Hi LSM , I am not challenging the claimed figures or the power increase , what I am worried about is if it is running a safe Air Fuel ratio (AFR) mix as the standard would run ? . Who knows it may ? But I haven't seen any back to back before and after tune figures to compare results .

Maybe I am just being extra cautious as I have just spent £77k on a car .. And $500 on a tune , which does sell for around $2000 elsewhere .

I am sure many people would like to ask the question , is my car safe with these tunes as no one has actually cracked the ecu yet?
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      05-16-2014, 12:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSM View Post
I can tell you this. I had mine set at only 2.25 which is super mild and lower than what most set there's at. I hit 590hp and 545lb ft at the wheels which is close to 678 crank hp...Im now running at 3.0 with 100 octane and 91 octane mixed 50/50...Its insanely fast and gonna dyno it soon before I turn the boost back down. Its a PITA with the fuel mix but its fast!!! LOL
Do you have any traction issue (more than stock) when you start off the line?
and do you feel any shaking at rear wheels when the engine is cold and you start moving?
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      05-17-2014, 12:32 PM   #11
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Today was an interesting day, the weather was 24 degrees C ,not really weather for turbo charged cars !. I arrived at the dyno complex around 11.30 am , we started strapping the car on the rollers, this is a Dastek 4wd rolling road with limits of 1000 hp only.

As I mentioned before , the purpose of today was to make sure the AFR readings on the piggyback ecu were in line with the stock AFR tables .

On doing some 5 gear pulls on the dyno, traction was becoming an issues with the heat and the michelin super sports . The readings after 4 pulls varied from 580hp to 640hp . The dyno engineer said that the traction issue causes the dyno to read wrong and he would suggest looking at the lowest value . Unfortunately the graph is like the Himalayas but peak Hp was from 580 to 640hp.

The AFR readings started from 15 and down to 11.8 starting at 2500rpm to 7000rpm. When I installed the piggyback , the readings for the AFR were consistent with the stock reading , unfortunately with the setting set at 3 on the BMS ecu settings ,at 3300 went down to 9.5 and climbed at 5500 to 12.4.

This demonstrated why the car feels a little un responsive at those revs compared to stock as it's over fuelling and killing the power, then we changed the value of 3 down to 2.5 which is a stock setting on the BMS software ,The AFR readings were then comparable to stock at 12.5 -13.

So adjusting the setting in increments of .25 we got to 2.75 on the user interface , the AFR were comparable to stock , with around .4 difference to 7200rpm.

Even though peak hp seems better with setting set at 3 , it seems to rob power in the mid range , you can tell when you accelerate and hear the engine tone change to a lower frequency . Then you feel a huge serge in acceleration after 5500rpm because it is going leaner .

Top end hp is pointless when you loose the midrange torque and hp. The car is set to 2.75 on the BMS interface and it does feel very strong all the way through the rev range , it may loose a little hp top end but the overall drive is as good as stock .

After letting the tyres cool down , we managed to get 2 dyno runs with the piggyback set to 2.75 , it showed 650hp and 612lbs of torque with a discrepancy of around 15 on the second run. On the third run , the figure went to 730hp, but this was due to traction issues .

I achieved what I wanted to know about the AFR with the piggyback tune , but it shows that there is sacrifices if you want more hp up top . I am hoping to get on a hub dyno to get an accurate reading in the future. I am not really a dyno queen so numbers don't really matter, the sensation of the car is much stronger overall now and this is all the matters.
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      05-17-2014, 02:28 PM   #12
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Very nice thank you. Do you have the latest bms software or the earlier version?
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      05-17-2014, 04:04 PM   #13
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I currently run the latest software , I know from past experience I would never use apiggyback ecu, but in this instance , it actually works really well.
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      05-17-2014, 10:52 PM   #14
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Just to confirm, you felt that 2.75 was the sweet spot for the BMS to be set at?
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      05-18-2014, 01:34 AM   #15
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The car just felt much more responsive and the AFR readings where within the stock range at the lower Rpm and higher Rpm . What I noticed was that at 6000 to 7200 rpm , set on 3 , the AFR was around 12.8 to 13, by dropping it down to 2.75 the readings were more around 11.8 to 12.3 . I feel uncomfortable running at higher AFR compared to stock .

I suppose it's also down to the wideband you are using . I believe changing the exhaust system will make the system run leaner due to it being more efficient especially when changing the cats to non cats .

The base map will compensate for a small amount of changes but I believe substantial changes such as de-cats should be addressed within the ecu fuel and ignition table .

I suppose these are my views as different tuners have different views to what is safe in there eyes .I know you are only increasing boost by a small percentage , I think around 2psi in this case , but running a car within safe parameters has always been my goal in all the cars that I have owned, and remember it's not about the HP but about the way it delivers it , which makes the driving sensation more manageable .

I suppose what you could do if you are curious on wanting a little more power is to alter it to 2.85 and see how that performs when driving . Please remember , more boost means more heat ! . I have seen threads where members are running race gas or E86 injection to extract a little more HP from there cars for 1/4 times . I suppose this would be fine in lowering the AFR , but for every day situations is it worth all the hassle and expense ?.

1/4 times is related to power but also the setup of the cars . I remember changing the tyres and suspensions settings on my supra , but still running the same boost my time went from 11.2 best to 10.8 and that is a considerable amount of difference when it comes to drag racing.

I think , from my point of view changing the tires on the M6 to semi slicks will make a substantial difference in the handling and performance if you are driving the M6 hard.

Last edited by michel lane; 05-18-2014 at 01:43 AM..
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      05-19-2014, 05:56 PM   #16
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On the latest firmware 3.0 is the same as 2.5 on the older firmware, so if you are running 2.75 on the new firmware its like 2.25 on the older...
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      05-19-2014, 06:00 PM   #17
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Quote:
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On the latest firmware 3.0 is the same as 2.5 on the older firmware, so if you are running 2.75 on the new firmware its like 2.25 on the older...
running +3psi on the latest bms update, works out well with 94 octane. Raced & killed 2 motorcycles today
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      05-19-2014, 08:28 PM   #18
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running +3psi on the latest bms update, works out well with 94 octane. Raced & killed 2 motorcycles today
So is your best setting 3.0 on new firmware which is 2.5 on old? I run 3.0 on old firmware which is 3.0 x1.44 = 4.32 over stock but mix the gas as mentioned previously and it flyes...
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      05-19-2014, 09:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSM View Post
So is your best setting 3.0 on new firmware which is 2.5 on old? I run 3.0 on old firmware which is 3.0 x1.44 = 4.32 over stock but mix the gas as mentioned previously and it flyes...
yup, it's perfect for 94 octane.
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      05-21-2014, 12:50 AM   #20
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Did you get your tune AFR looked at ?
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      05-21-2014, 11:11 AM   #21
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My buddy with an M5 set his BMS at 2.75 on the latest software. He had his set at 3 prior. He said that the car feels much smoother at 2.75 then it did at 3.0. He said he was experiencing some hesitation at 3.0.
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      05-21-2014, 02:57 PM   #22
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That makes sense , from my experience it seems that the stock ecu was just dumping to much fuel with the higher setting in mid range. I am currently installing an AEM wideband with a wireless feature to connect to my iPhone, this allows me to monitor the readings . I know it's anal , but it's the only way I am sure it's not running lean .

At 2.75 the car drives like stock , but gives you a kick in the back on acceleration in 3rd and 4th. Does anyone have any dyno results with AFR readings with there tune ?
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