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      12-19-2014, 12:40 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr24 View Post
I really can't believe you guys have argued for 2 pages about this....
LOL... There is another 2 page argument in another thread too
Actually this thread was supposed to be B6 vs M6 while the other one was M4 vs 650i... but ended up to M4 vs M6
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      12-19-2014, 10:11 AM   #46
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Still, NO DCT in the B6 is a deal-breaker. I'm surprised nobody else mentioned this....
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      12-19-2014, 11:59 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnell_1 View Post
Still, NO DCT in the B6 is a deal-breaker. I'm surprised nobody else mentioned this....
I did (in post#34) but didn't get attention because he is just ignoring everything
Or maybe just you and I can understand what's the huge difference between ZF8 and DCT
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      12-19-2014, 12:18 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M6-Coupe View Post
I did (in post#34) but didn't get attention because he is just ignoring everything
Or maybe just you and I can understand what's the huge difference between ZF8 and DCT
I'm on the DCT crack - can't go back!
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      12-19-2014, 08:27 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M6-Coupe View Post
I did (in post#34) but didn't get attention because he is just ignoring everything
Or maybe just you and I can understand what's the huge difference between ZF8 and DCT
Maybe because that had nothing to do with our conversation?

And while DCTs are cool - an auto (especially that damn ZF) can be amazing - especially when coupled with AWD.



and yes, that's the RS7 not the S7 (more expensive and not much more performance) and yes, the RS7 is 300lbs lighter than the B6 xDrive.

However, we when talk straight line performance.... this is what I'm talking about.

And sorry cjackson1906, I missed that you already posted this video.
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      12-20-2014, 12:22 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
Maybe because that had nothing to do with our conversation?

And while DCTs are cool - an auto (especially that damn ZF) can be amazing - especially when coupled with AWD.


and yes, that's the RS7 not the S7 (more expensive and not much more performance) and yes, the RS7 is 300lbs lighter than the B6 xDrive.

However, we when talk straight line performance.... this is what I'm talking about.

And sorry cjackson1906, I missed that you already posted this video.
FYI, RS7 is the fastest (or one of the fastest) AWD, Sedan cars currently incurrent market with amazing Quattro component; however in rolling start still M6 beats her.From standstill RS7 is faster than M6 (0-60 , 0-100) but not in rolling (ie 5-60, 60-130 mph,etc)... but what's the point of re-posting this video? I think now you want to compare M6 with RS7 right?
Or if you brought the example of RS7 to say B6 is doing the samething, then you are completely wrong! 4800 lb is a lot heavy!

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...pe_first_test/

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t-drive-review

Also again for your information when you say "not much more performance" (RS7 over S7), keep in mind that RS7 has 100 lb-ft more torque and 110 HP more power than S7.... and you say "not much more" ?


Dude, again I ask you to do yourself a favor and go and test drive M6. Then S7 and B6 and M4 and RS7 and.... then come back to me and talk about your experiences.... it's funny that every time you start a new subject " M6 vs xx?".... (xx is changing every time) and as soon as I answer you and question you, you immediately change that subject and start new one lol
I highly believe you need to test drive to feel the difference between ZF8 and DCT...

I just leave this link (C&D) here for you; however it's re-posted but since you are relying on C&D, it's some food for thought

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...specs-page-5-2
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      12-20-2014, 09:22 AM   #51
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Unless I'm reading your C&D post wrong, the RS7 is in fact faster in the quarter mile - or did I get that wrong? And from 5Mph (C&D rolling start) the advantages of AWD go away - however check out what happens from 50-70 with the RS7

Pick up a magazine - see what A8s, S7s, S6s are doing in terms of performance. I think you will be amazed and suspect like I do, that the S6/S7 engine is way underrated.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...0t-test-review
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...s6-test-review
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...rm-test-review

Alas, we have taken this conversation far enough off topic. I think I've proven my point and you think you have proven yours.
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      12-20-2014, 11:50 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
Unless I'm reading your C&D post wrong, the RS7 is in fact faster in the quarter mile - or did I get that wrong? And from 5Mph (C&D rolling start) the advantages of AWD go away - however check out what happens from 50-70 with the RS7
No you didn't read it wrong and I didn't claim M6 is faster in quarter mile! I said: "From standstill RS7 is faster than M6 (0-60 , 0-100) but not in rolling (ie 5-60, 60-130 mph,etc)... but what's the point of re-posting this video?"
1. what was your point from posting this video?
2. after quarter mile M6 waks away (ie 0-130mph or 0-300 km/h)
3. 50-70 is "Top Gear" means both cars are in highest possible gear for that speed (like 4 or 5)... it's not a criteria to see which car is more powerful to walk away...

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
Pick up a magazine - see what A8s, S7s, S6s are doing in terms of performance. I think you will be amazed and suspect like I do, that the S6/S7 engine is way underrated.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...0t-test-review
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...s6-test-review
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...rm-test-review
It's amazing that when I claim "M5/M6 are underrated by BMW" you point to BMW website out, but in case of AUDI you point to magazines! I hate to say but if you really like (or love) Audi, you are driving wrong car and wasting your time in wrong forum... go get one of those amazing underrated A6/S6/RS6/A7/S7/RS7/A8/S8... specially since and all of them are AWD! FYI, Quattro is one of the best AWD in current market much better than BMW xDrive ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
Alas, we have taken this conversation far enough off topic. I think I've proven my point and you think you have proven yours.
You didn't prove anything (or maybe proved to yourself) and I don't think that I was successful to prove the "real world challenges" to you; however I did my best to bring all the realities to your attention. I don't mind to continue this conversation, but I have to pack since I'm leaving country for about two weeks on Monday... hopefully you don't want to change the subject to another "M6 vs xx", but if you want to bring another one like MB or GTR , let me know
Oh BTW, M6 is even faster than GTR "in rolling"
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      12-20-2014, 12:15 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M6-Coupe View Post
2. after quarter mile M6 waks away (ie 0-130mph or 0-300 km/h)
3. 50-70 is "Top Gear" means both cars are in highest possible gear for that speed (like 4 or 5)... it's not a criteria to see which car is more powerful to walk away...
re: #2 - where/when are you racing a car past the quarter mile in full throttle? Or do you just like to tell people "you realize, that eventually my car will pull away from you? Not on any street or in the quarter mile - but if we could find a runway, I could eventually beat your car"

re: #3 - It is not a criteria for that? Really? What is it for then exactly?


Quote:
Originally Posted by M6-Coupe View Post
It's amazing that when I claim "M5/M6 are underrated by BMW" you point to BMW website out, but in case of AUDI you point to magazines!
Interesting. I'm not sure I remember saying the M5/M6 were underrated - please point this out. I did point to the magazines to prove my point that the Audi 4.0 is an amazing engine and must be underrated for what it delivers - and thus backing up why I believe the S7 is the best balance of performance and luxury at the given price point (and yet I do agree with you that I like the BMW line-up better, but I'm not silly enough to say that that my $100K GC is the best balance of performance and luxury at this price point - cause it is not).


Quote:
Originally Posted by M6-Coupe View Post
hate to say but if you really like (or love) Audi, you are driving wrong car and wasting your time in wrong forum... go get one of those amazing underrated A6/S6/RS6/A7/S7/RS7/A8/S8... specially since and all of them are AWD! FYI, Quattro is one of the best AWD in current market much better than BMW xDrive ....
Let's go back - I said the B6 gets to 60mph faster than the M6 and has a higher stock top speed. You then posted a video of a B6 coupe RWD and it kind of went downhill from there. With regards to Audi, I'm just able to accept it for what it is. Doesn't mean I prefer Audi or am on the wrong board - it just means I'm mature and can discuss other car makes and point out when they are superior. Speaking of which, has the M6 won any comparison reviews?


Quote:
Originally Posted by M6-Coupe View Post
You didn't prove anything (or maybe proved to yourself) and I don't think that I was successful to prove the "real world challenges" to you; however I did my best to bring all the realities to your attention.
In both of our debates I've used reputable sources. I close with the numbers from BMW
B6 xDrive
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...rformance.aspx
With a 4.4-liter Bi-Turbo V-8 engine two turbochargers with variable valve control (Double-VANOS and Valvetronic) and high-precision direct injection, plus electronically controlled engine cooling. Boasting 540 hp and 540 lb-ft of torque, the BMW ALPINA B6 achieves a 0-60 time of just 3.7 seconds and a top speed of 198 mph.

BMW AG test results. BMW urges you to obey all posted speed laws and always wear safety belts.


and the M6 Coupe
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...fications.aspx


Performance
Top speed
155 mph

Acceleration 0-60 mph
4.1 sec

BMW AG test results. Actual acceleration results may vary, depending on specification of vehicle; road and environmental conditions; testing procedures and driving style. These results should be used for comparison only and verification should not be attempted on public roads. BMW urges you to obey all posted speed laws and always wear safety belts


And you point to the fact that they have a mistake on their stats (the runflats) and that must mean all of their stats are wrong. That's a silly argument. I suggest you go read Freakanomics - its a good read.

So BMW thinks the B6 is considerably faster to 60, and allows it to go to 190+ from the factory, all you need to do is find a video or a reputable side by side comparison test showing otherwise and I'll write on this board "M6 Coupe was right - the B6 xDrive is slower to 60 than the M6"

and since I just know you by now, you will point out that the 4.1 number from BMW is crazy high - however, remember, that would mean the 3.6 number for the B6 is crazy high too

Enjoy your vacation. I will miss our discussions.
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      12-20-2014, 02:10 PM   #54
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I'm beginning to think you should meet, drop trou, see who's is bigger, and be done with it. 😉
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      12-20-2014, 02:18 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
re: #2 - where/when are you racing a car past the quarter mile in full throttle? Or do you just like to tell people "you realize, that eventually my car will pull away from you? Not on any street or in the quarter mile - but if we could find a runway, I could eventually beat your car"

I enjoy reading your comments that are going to self-answer the other comments of yours... you are right! where you can find a street to pass after 1/4 mile? and where you can find a street to go as high as 190+ mph? talking about performance and specification! M6 is walking away after quarter mile "if" there is a 1/2 or 1 mile race. It's specification!



re: #3 - It is not a criteria for that? Really? What is it for then exactly?

FYI, Top Gear results depend on gear ratio and axle ratio. a car with "higher" gear ratio * axle ratio may have better top gear; however still power, drivetrain transfer (ie AWD or RWD), torque, weight distribution are other important factors... for example at 40mph your car have better acceleration at second gear than fourth gear because the gear ratio in second gear is higher than fourth gear (ie 3.14 vs 1.67)... since DCT is 7 speed vs 8 speed ZF8, at higher gears such as 6 vs 6, ZF8 has higher gear ratio... it's a little complicated since you need to consider all factors, but overall it's not a perfect criteria. as you can see top gear 30-50 is opposite of 50-70 in case of RS7 vs M6... The point is no one races at top gear.


Interesting. I'm not sure I remember saying the M5/M6 were underrated - please point this out. I did point to the magazines to prove my point that the Audi 4.0 is an amazing engine and must be underrated for what it delivers -


I mentioned several times that M5/M6 are underrated. I even mentioned that the actual power/torque of S63TU in these cars is 618/576 vs the factory claim 560/502 and so the actual 0-60 is much faster than what you find in website...


and thus backing up why I believe the S7 is the best balance of performance and luxury at the given price point (and yet I do agree with you that I like the BMW line-up better, but I'm not silly enough to say that that my $100K GC is the best balance of performance and luxury at this price point - cause it is not).

Maybe S7 has better performance than 650iGC (at this time I have no data to compare these cars) but not luxurious. Your $100K GC has a lot more options and much more gorgeous ( I know it's subjective) than S7.

Let's go back - I said the B6 gets to 60mph faster than the M6 and has a higher stock top speed. You then posted a video of a B6 coupe RWD and it kind of went downhill from there. With regards to Audi, I'm just able to accept it for what it is. Doesn't mean I prefer Audi or am on the wrong board - it just means I'm mature and can discuss other car makes and point out when they are superior. Speaking of which, has the M6 won any comparison reviews?

And I stood corrected about B6 RWD; however after explaining that even those magazines (ie C&D) measurement (0-60) for B6 and M6 are identical and please don't miss the main point that those numbers are for M6GC which is 100-200 lb heavier than my "M6 Coupe"... hell for god sake look at the link I posted! B6 weigh 4800 lb... come on dude... use your common sense! how this heavy car can go faster than 500-600 lighter M6 (that has more power and torque (in real world) and a faster tranny) even with AWD???... As far as Audi you mentioned S7 beats up entire BMW M5/M6...and no you are wrong! M5/M6 beat up S7 in every single criteria unless you want to point out the price! still I believe you have to compare S7 to 650i GC and not M6


In both of our debates I've used reputable sources. I close with the numbers from BMW
B6 xDrive
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...rformance.aspx
With a 4.4-liter Bi-Turbo V-8 engine two turbochargers with variable valve control (Double-VANOS and Valvetronic) and high-precision direct injection, plus electronically controlled engine cooling. Boasting 540 hp and 540 lb-ft of torque, the BMW ALPINA B6 achieves a 0-60 time of just 3.7 seconds and a top speed of 198 mph.

BMW AG test results. BMW urges you to obey all posted speed laws and always wear safety belts.


and the M6 Coupe
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...fications.aspx


Performance
Top speed
155 mph

Acceleration 0-60 mph
4.1 sec

BMW AG test results. Actual acceleration results may vary, depending on specification of vehicle; road and environmental conditions; testing procedures and driving style. These results should be used for comparison only and verification should not be attempted on public roads. BMW urges you to obey all posted speed laws and always wear safety belts


And you point to the fact that they have a mistake on their stats (the runflats) and that must mean all of their stats are wrong. That's a silly argument. I suggest you go read Freakanomics - its a good read.

You keep missing the points....
I do agree that it's a silly argument when you even don't want to accept the reality or want to ignore it because you don't like it ... Dude I'm engineer and I have been trained to be conservative to accept everything unless it's either proven or know how to prove it. I don't buy the marketing strategy statement of BMW or other automakers... as a side note, I said either it's mistake (intentionally) or maybe it's not the fastest possible (ie MDM or Launch Control)


So BMW thinks the B6 is considerably faster to 60, and allows it to go to 190+ from the factory, all you need to do is find a video or a reputable side by side comparison test showing otherwise and I'll write on this board "M6 Coupe was right - the B6 xDrive is slower to 60 than the M6"


The issue is that even if I find and post the video, will be ended up to be quoted " posting homemade videos" and I did and you did lol... I posted the TFL showed M6 Coupe with 2 heavy guys was faster than B6 XDrive with a lighter race driver...
BTW, I really don't care and whether you write or not! The main reason I kept this conversation, was to educate you and TBH I got a lot educations... I really didn't know that M5/M6 are faster than most of the cars in 5-60 mph including crazy fast AWD RS7 and AWD E63 AMG. In addition I learned that most of the time cars with AWD (RS7) or less weight (M4) have better 50-70 Top gear numbers than 30-50.. I also realized that I will miss "My M6 Coupe" if I trades her in



and since I just know you by now, you will point out that the 4.1 number from BMW is crazy high - however, remember, that would mean the 3.6 number for the B6 is crazy high too


Oh interesting! BMW claims 4.1 for M6 and 3.7 for B6. Real world (C&D, TFL) measures the same or slower for B6, but faster for M6 ... you rely on BMW, but accept C&D as reliable source! I'm confused



Enjoy your vacation. I will miss our discussions.
Thanks, I think I will miss too
And you missed my first question
1. what was your point from posting this video?


Edit: My comments are in bold
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      12-20-2014, 04:05 PM   #56
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I certainly don't want to get in the middle of this, but point of order: C&D's top gear acceleration run, in cars with automatic transmissions, allow the tranny to downshift. They just floor it. In a true manual (3 pedals) they keep it in the highest gear even if it means lugging the engine. The point is to demonstrate passing power. With the DCT in the above chart, it must have been in auto mode.

Also, M6C, you mean a lower gear ratio in 2nd vs. 4th - higher number=lower ratio. And it's not complicated. The product of the transmission ratio and the final drive ratio is your ratio to the wheels. Certainly there are many other factors in determining a car's acceleration: engine output, gearing, drivetrain efficiency, tire diameter, aerodynamics, traction, ambient conditions, etc.

Regardless, all these cars are fast and can get you into trouble real fast on public roads. And for those of us that drive them, we should be glad we can afford them and should give them the respect that they deserve.

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      12-20-2014, 05:44 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bönz View Post
I certainly don't want to get in the middle of this, but point of order: C&D's top gear acceleration run, in cars with automatic transmissions, allow the tranny to downshift. They just floor it. In a true manual (3 pedals) they keep it in the highest gear even if it means lugging the engine. The point is to demonstrate passing power. With the DCT in the above chart, it must have been in auto mode.

Also, M6C, you mean a lower gear ratio in 2nd vs. 4th - higher number=lower ratio. And it's not complicated. The product of the transmission ratio and the final drive ratio is your ratio to the wheels. Certainly there are many other factors in deterring a car's acceleration: engine output, gearing, drivetrain efficiency, tire diameter, aerodynamics, traction, ambient conditions, etc.

Regardless, all these cars are fast and can get you into trouble real fast on public roads. And for those of us that drive them, we should be glad we can afford them and should give them the respect that they deserve.
Thanks for correcting me. I meant higher number (ie 3.14:1 vs 1.67:1). the point I was trying to make was to say the torque at wheel is higher in lower gear since the torque at wheel is the product of TQ(at crank)*gear ratio* axle ratio * (1- drivetrain loss)
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      12-20-2014, 06:11 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bönz View Post
I certainly don't want to get in the middle of this, but point of order: C&D's top gear acceleration run, in cars with automatic transmissions, allow the tranny to downshift. They just floor it. In a true manual (3 pedals) they keep it in the highest gear even if it means lugging the engine. The point is to demonstrate passing power. With the DCT in the above chart, it must have been in auto mode.

Also, M6C, you mean a lower gear ratio in 2nd vs. 4th - higher number=lower ratio. And it's not complicated. The product of the transmission ratio and the final drive ratio is your ratio to the wheels. Certainly there are many other factors in deterring a car's acceleration: engine output, gearing, drivetrain efficiency, tire diameter, aerodynamics, traction, ambient conditions, etc.

Regardless, all these cars are fast and can get you into trouble real fast on public roads. And for those of us that drive them, we should be glad we can afford them and should give them the respect that they deserve.
Bonz, well handled.
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      12-23-2014, 06:22 PM   #59
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Not sure I like the fact Alpina went with the Non M-Sport front bumper.
It just loses so much of that aggressive sports car look factor but i guess they wanted the subtle sedan look.
The M6 front bumper and intakes sweet, the M-Sport not so bad either but the non-M or B6, mmm not so pretty.

Aside from the fact it is B6 and that just sounds extremely rare I would take the M6 over it for all other reasons.
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