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      03-23-2015, 12:47 AM   #23
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Agree with the weather conditions but ultimately its not a very difficult car to drive with dsc on. The problems arise with it off where people lose control without even driving it aggressively.

Bottom line is if you havent driven any type of sports car previous to an M6 youre gonna feel overwhelmed. Otherwise you should be able to transition over fairly quickly.
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      03-23-2015, 09:48 AM   #24
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It is possible to lose control of any powerful RWD car. The unfortunate reality of the modern performance car marketplace is that many people who can afford excellent performance cars do not have the time or availability to practice driving them or learn real dynamic driving skills- they are of course busy earning a living. It is this market environment that has been a windfall for manufacturers building AWD vehicles. Building an AWD performance car caters (not exclusively, but certainly in part) to those who are interested in very high performance, but do not have the availability to earn the requisite driving skill to operate a very high performance car.

Ultimately, Audi's RS models place the front drive axle at the front of the transmission, positioning the engine ahead of that by default. Unfortunately this is dynamically inferior- this AWD drivetrain arrangement impacts polar moment, instant center, roll axis, and a host of other factors which all lead to understeer and poor dynamics at the limit. While this option does appeal to a certain segment, Audi AWD specifically is a substantial compromise from a performance standpoint.

BMW's M cars are deeply rooted in their Motorsport heritage, and I as an M car enthusiast feel extremely fortunate that the M engineers have not forgotten this. M cars are truly designed to be capable in a road course environment, and to be engaging to drive on the track and on the street. Unfortunately, just like a real racing car, M cars (and any other RWD performance cars) command respect and a modicum of driving skill. The fact that high performance cars required driving skill, competence, and practice to drive at their limit was once a component of the prestige and exclusivity of owning a performance car at all, and I, for one, thank M for sticking to that party line.
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      03-23-2015, 10:09 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Ilia@IND View Post
It is possible to lose control of any powerful RWD car. The unfortunate reality of the modern performance car marketplace is that many people who can afford excellent performance cars do not have the time or availability to practice driving them or learn real dynamic driving skills- they are of course busy earning a living. It is this market environment that has been a windfall for manufacturers building AWD vehicles. Building an AWD performance car caters (not exclusively, but certainly in part) to those who are interested in very high performance, but do not have the availability to earn the requisite driving skill to operate a very high performance car.

Ultimately, Audi's RS models place the front drive axle at the front of the transmission, positioning the engine ahead of that by default. Unfortunately this is dynamically inferior- this AWD drivetrain arrangement impacts polar moment, instant center, roll axis, and a host of other factors which all lead to understeer and poor dynamics at the limit. While this option does appeal to a certain segment, Audi AWD specifically is a substantial compromise from a performance standpoint.

BMW's M cars are deeply rooted in their Motorsport heritage, and I as an M car enthusiast feel extremely fortunate that the M engineers have not forgotten this. M cars are truly designed to be capable in a road course environment, and to be engaging to drive on the track and on the street. Unfortunately, just like a real racing car, M cars (and any other RWD performance cars) command respect and a modicum of driving skill. The fact that high performance cars required driving skill, competence, and practice to drive at their limit was once a component of the prestige and exclusivity of owning a performance car at all, and I, for one, thank M for sticking to that party line.
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      03-23-2015, 01:21 PM   #26
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Check out my cars, the owner of the company I work for has had a couple of RS6's including the current model, which you guys don't get over there. I also drove an RS3 when I was thinking about one of those versus an M135i or 435i GC, but then I drove the C63 and fell in love with it.

The Audi's all feel VERY heavy at the front and don't like changing direction because as Ilia said they place the entire engine in front of the front wheels. It's like being on one of those spinny things at a playground and sticking your legs out versus holding them in.

If you like going around corners I would stay away from any Audi apart from of course the R8.

An interesting issue with the RS6 that I have never seen mentioned in a review is the torque steer that it has, the front diff is mounted quite some distance out to the side (have a look at quattro cutaways online to see this) and it means that the entire car pulls to the left just like a turbo FWD car. Absolutely horrible if you enjoy powering out of corners!

I note that xdrive and 4matic have the diff next to the engine which means it is much furthe forward but still offset to one site. I haven't seen anything mentioning the same torque steerbehaviour with either system though.
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      03-23-2015, 08:06 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilia@IND View Post
It is possible to lose control of any powerful RWD car. The unfortunate reality of the modern performance car marketplace is that many people who can afford excellent performance cars do not have the time or availability to practice driving them or learn real dynamic driving skills- they are of course busy earning a living. It is this market environment that has been a windfall for manufacturers building AWD vehicles. Building an AWD performance car caters (not exclusively, but certainly in part) to those who are interested in very high performance, but do not have the availability to earn the requisite driving skill to operate a very high performance car.

Ultimately, Audi's RS models place the front drive axle at the front of the transmission, positioning the engine ahead of that by default. Unfortunately this is dynamically inferior- this AWD drivetrain arrangement impacts polar moment, instant center, roll axis, and a host of other factors which all lead to understeer and poor dynamics at the limit. While this option does appeal to a certain segment, Audi AWD specifically is a substantial compromise from a performance standpoint.

BMW's M cars are deeply rooted in their Motorsport heritage, and I as an M car enthusiast feel extremely fortunate that the M engineers have not forgotten this. M cars are truly designed to be capable in a road course environment, and to be engaging to drive on the track and on the street. Unfortunately, just like a real racing car, M cars (and any other RWD performance cars) command respect and a modicum of driving skill. The fact that high performance cars required driving skill, competence, and practice to drive at their limit was once a component of the prestige and exclusivity of owning a performance car at all, and I, for one, thank M for sticking to that party line.
Well said. I do have time to learn how to drive the car. Any suggestions on a good place to practice?
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      03-24-2015, 12:25 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by nyy13lal24dal9 View Post
I do have time to learn how to drive the car. Any suggestions on a good place to practice?
Here.

I haven't taken any of the courses (yet), but I did get a taste of the track when I took delivery of my car there. It looks like it is lots of fun and very educational.

Last edited by JimM6GC; 03-24-2015 at 12:31 AM..
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      03-24-2015, 10:03 AM   #29
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Bought my first M6 at 19. I'm 25 and on my second. I'm still alive... I think.

Truth is what your brother is telling you is borderline ridiculous. No modern car is a death trap. No matter how powerful and what drivetrain bias it's designed around. RWD, 600hp or not there's driver aids like the traction and stability control system that should keep you from wrecking yourself and others so long as you use them within reason. Go for a proper test drive. If you truly like the car, buy it, if not, move on.
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      03-24-2015, 11:17 AM   #30
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I would listen to your mate, get a mercedes and be safe and slow.

RWD kills.
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      03-24-2015, 11:33 AM   #31
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This thread just gave me cancer
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      03-24-2015, 10:38 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyy13lal24dal9 View Post
Well said. I do have time to learn how to drive the car. Any suggestions on a good place to practice?
Long time Porsche guy here now with 4 M's under my belt in 3 years and a fellow LI'er.

HPDE is where you and the car you love (not up to anyone else's opinion) need to go and here is where you will find the right guys to help you learn how to drive your car with confidence and at your own pace. No need to be a hero out of the box. Go practice and have fun. You'll realize that you can learn a lot in a short time very inexpensively.

https://www.bmwcca.org/forum/index.p...g-island.9422/

Now; if you want to talk violent sledge to the head power and veritable death on wheels; after you're done getting upto the black and red run groups, I'll take you out in my 997 GT2 630 HP from 6 cyclinders and all rear wheel drive!!
They don't call it the widow maker for nothing!!
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      03-24-2015, 11:02 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by nyy13lal24dal9 View Post
So finally I got a dealer to give me a good deal on an M6GC. I'm about to pull the trigger, but I was just wondering how bad is the RWD on the car? My brother (had 2 M3s, Audi S5, among many other cars) says that its a huge mistake getting an M6 because of the RWD. He says you basically can't do anything with the car or you lose traction and spin out. He calls it a "highway monster". He says with an Audi you can punch the car around corners and really "fly" around with it. He said that I'm going to constantly lose control of the car and probably crash it a few times. I have never driven an AWD car, I am used to 4matic with Mercedes. Is there any truth to what he is saying?
Why the GC? You're 22....you don't need to be ferrying more kids around. Get the coupe and have fun.
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      03-24-2015, 11:16 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsr racer
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyy13lal24dal9 View Post
So finally I got a dealer to give me a good deal on an M6GC. I'm about to pull the trigger, but I was just wondering how bad is the RWD on the car? My brother (had 2 M3s, Audi S5, among many other cars) says that its a huge mistake getting an M6 because of the RWD. He says you basically can't do anything with the car or you lose traction and spin out. He calls it a "highway monster". He says with an Audi you can punch the car around corners and really "fly" around with it. He said that I'm going to constantly lose control of the car and probably crash it a few times. I have never driven an AWD car, I am used to 4matic with Mercedes. Is there any truth to what he is saying?
Why the GC? You're 22....you don't need to be ferrying more kids around. Get the coupe and have fun.
This exact reasoning is why I changed my order from GC to coupe (I'm 26)
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      03-25-2015, 12:00 AM   #35
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This thread just gave me cancer
Looks like most of M6 drivers are in 20's...
I'm feeling old here LOL
25 years ago at age of 20, I was driving a 60HP car and I was so happy
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      03-25-2015, 09:58 AM   #36
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Looks like most of M6 drivers are in 20's...
I'm feeling old here LOL
25 years ago at age of 20, I was driving a 60HP car and I was so happy
I'd like to know what were we doing wrong. Mine was a German-made 1976 Capri 2 with the 2.6L V6 with all of 100(?)HP
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      03-25-2015, 10:00 AM   #37
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Why the GC? You're 22....you don't need to be ferrying more kids around. Get the coupe and have fun.
And the award for quote of the day goes to...RSR
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      03-25-2015, 11:07 AM   #38
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And the award for quote of the day goes to...RSR
seriously...what 22 yo considers a sedan over a coupe? and what was i driving at that age??.....a friggin' Schwinn. 10 speed

my first car was a '78 280Z at 25. got stolen in NYC.

just replaced it last year with a '71 240Z mint rotisserie restoration that i had shipped over from LA. mint specimen.
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      03-25-2015, 11:33 AM   #39
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I'd like to know what were we doing wrong. Mine was a German-made 1976 Capri 2 with the 2.6L V6 with all of 100(?)HP
We were not doing anything wrong... The world is changed now or was wrong at that time I was a kid when the first generation of 3 series (E21) came out as the replacement of 2002. It had a 4 cylinder engine (M10). later on in 1977 they introduced the new 2 liter six cylinder engine (M20) and then the 2.3 liter engine was mounted on 323 generating 143HP...
This car...
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      03-25-2015, 12:10 PM   #40
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couldn't resist a little hijack
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      03-25-2015, 12:49 PM   #41
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...and to continue the hijack...323 and 240z...state of the art for their day and still generational benchmarks.
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      03-25-2015, 12:53 PM   #42
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...and to continue the hijack...323 and 240z...state of the art for their day and still generational benchmarks.
iconic, even...
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      03-25-2015, 03:15 PM   #43
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...and to continue the hijack...323 and 240z...state of the art for their day and still generational benchmarks.
Speaking about "state of art" let me post this beauty too.
This car was king of the roads ...
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      03-25-2015, 03:18 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by rsr racer View Post
seriously...what 22 yo considers a sedan over a coupe? and what was i driving at that age??.....a friggin' Schwinn. 10 speed

my first car was a '78 280Z at 25. got stolen in NYC.

just replaced it last year with a '71 240Z mint rotisserie restoration that i had shipped over from LA. mint specimen.
I'm in my early 30's, so all of my 7 series were owned in my 20's. I blame it on my parents making me watch too many mafia movies growing up.
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