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      07-20-2017, 11:54 AM   #595
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Originally Posted by Huz-Z View Post
I'm just keen to see what the thing is going to look like with the camo removed. Isn't the big reveal supposed to happen next month?
I agree, I can't wait to see. I hope it has some of the 8 series concept detailing and spirit.

Big reveal will be at Pebble Beach, 8/15.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...ours-delegance
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      07-20-2017, 12:57 PM   #596
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunker View Post
...says the only single solitary person in the world who is thinking this.
says the single solitary person in the world who probably still likes soft tops. LOLOLOL
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      07-20-2017, 02:33 PM   #597
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Can't disagree w/ the comment that M should be reserved for coupes, but then again, it's not as if the convertible counterpart is far behind in performance.

As for the previous Z4 gen, wasn't it developed as a convertible? I think that the coupe was ironically *heavier* by, what, 15-35kg?, so that sucked.
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      07-20-2017, 04:27 PM   #598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
It has the new Octangular kidney grille which will be seen on the new 8er.
That being said, i think this can turn out really great, or really bad. Either way, im happy to see bmw stepping out of its comfort zone, and pushing new designs. Maybe they realized that making facelifts isn't enough anymore.

I would be careful though. They are taking cues from the stunning 8er concept..which has alot of new design languages, but being a concept, they were as aggressive as it gets, and that way it came out really nice. Lets see what happens when they tone these down and implement them to the lineup.

I guess we will find out next month with the rumored Z4 concept which should preview closely the production car, much like the 4-series concept some years back.
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      07-20-2017, 04:48 PM   #599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
Can't disagree w/ the comment that M should be reserved for coupes, but then again, it's not as if the convertible counterpart is far behind in performance.

As for the previous Z4 gen, wasn't it developed as a convertible? I think that the coupe was ironically *heavier* by, what, 15-35kg?, so that sucked.
Correct ... The Z4M-C is heavier than the roadster
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      07-21-2017, 12:11 AM   #600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
Can't disagree w/ the comment that M should be reserved for coupes, but then again, it's not as if the convertible counterpart is far behind in performance.

As for the previous Z4 gen, wasn't it developed as a convertible? I think that the coupe was ironically *heavier* by, what, 15-35kg?, so that sucked.
Wow that's crazy on the coupe being heavier ..


CS is reserved for coupes
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      07-21-2017, 12:17 PM   #601
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
For the time being there will be the Z4 M.Performance.
I am not optimistic about a Z4 M. That market has and continues to shrink.

Are there plans for a coupe, or will that be reserved for Toyota's version?
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      07-21-2017, 12:57 PM   #602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Wow that's crazy on the coupe being heavier ..


CS is reserved for coupes
What's CS?

Ya, I always wondered about why the coupe was heavier....they couldn't be bothered to take out the reinforcements and just tacked on the roof? I wonder how many other cars have the coupe being heavier also?
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      07-21-2017, 01:08 PM   #603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
I wonder how many other cars have the coupe being heavier also?
Pagani Huayra is one:

http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2017/2/2...Coupe-7737629/

Here's another one, but its pretty obscure:

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/mazda...-it-1618120073
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      07-22-2017, 11:48 AM   #604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GabeS View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bunker View Post
...says the only single solitary person in the world who is thinking this.
says the single solitary person in the world who probably still likes soft tops. LOLOLOL
Yeah, no. Hardtops are the dumbest thing to ever happen to convertibles. Well, after automatics.
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      07-22-2017, 05:10 PM   #605
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I know there was a lot of back and forth on this, but are we still expecting the BMW to be a roadster only and the Toyota a coupe?
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      07-22-2017, 09:31 PM   #606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supra93 View Post
I know there was a lot of back and forth on this, but are we still expecting the BMW to be a roadster only and the Toyota a coupe?
Initial rollouts will be BMW roadster, Toyota coupe. Time will tell as to what else emerges.
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      07-22-2017, 10:34 PM   #607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Yeah, no. Hardtops are the dumbest thing to ever happen to convertibles. Well, after automatics.
Maybe you should change your name to Gray Beard lol.

No one prefers the rag if the wt diff is not significant. The tech is there.

Get w/ the times bro.
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      07-22-2017, 11:05 PM   #608
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Yeah, no. Hardtops are the dumbest thing to ever happen to convertibles. Well, after automatics.
Maybe you should change your name to Gray Beard lol.

No one prefers the rag if the wt diff is not significant. The tech is there.

Get w/ the times bro.
Funny, since BMW is going back to the soft top for the next 4er, and the Z5, leaving them with no folding hardtops. Looks like that goofball design came and went. It's the SMG of convertible tops.
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      07-22-2017, 11:21 PM   #609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Funny, since BMW is going back to the soft top for the next 4er, and the Z5, leaving them with no folding hardtops. Looks like that goofball design came and went. It's the SMG of convertible tops.
Meh, BMW has been going backwards, period. Check out the supercar marques, most of them hardtops. It's over.
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      07-23-2017, 05:48 AM   #610
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Every time I look at used cars with folding hardtops the questions about whether they still work or not abound. They're cute and clever but their mechanisms don't stand the test of time.
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      07-23-2017, 12:00 PM   #611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
Meh, BMW has been going backwards, period. Check out the supercar marques, most of them hardtops. It's over.
Don't worry about it - ragtops will fade away with the grandfathers from the 40's. Soft tops look like shit. Ferrari got rid of it for a reason and McLaren didn't even bother considering it - and if anyone's going to be worrying about weight and aesthetics, it's those two.
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      07-23-2017, 12:27 PM   #612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
No one prefers the rag if the wt diff is not significant. The tech is there. Get w/ the times bro.
Yet everyone is going back to fabric on everything that can't get away with a Folding Hard Targa configuration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
Meh, BMW has been going backwards, period. Check out the supercar marques, most of them hardtops. It's over.
Hmm what's very different about their design and purpose? Guess Mercedes is backwards too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobysaurus View Post
Don't worry about it - ragtops will fade away with the grandfathers from the 40's. Soft tops look like shit. Ferrari got rid of it for a reason and McLaren didn't even bother considering it - and if anyone's going to be worrying about weight and aesthetics, it's those two.
They aren't full cabriolets. A targa top into what would be empty space anyway gives it a tiny edge.

Imagine the next 4 series going this route so the boot is usable...


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      07-23-2017, 12:48 PM   #613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Not really since drop top M vehicles are very popular. The last M roadster sold well in its day for what it was (a low volume vehicle to begin with) - more so than the coupe, in fact. Today, we have the M4 convertible which also sells well. Furthermore, currently there is no M6 (and 6 series) coupe being sold in the US at all - just the convertible and gran coupe. And, finally, there is an M8 convertible in the works too.

Just to keep this on topic, in case people are waiting to pounce, I'd prefer if we don't turn this thread into a debate about how, despite being marketable vehicles, convertibles don't truly deserve the M label because they are too heavy/slow/girly/whatever.
The E89 wasn't "popular". Total production was down over 42% compared to the E85. The F83 does a decent amount but that is a different market segment. The F13 was axed as F06 ate most of it up. The F12 models will probably get the early axe as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I suppose its a matter of perspective. Like I say, it was conceived as a low volume vehicle to begin with. On the other hand, sure, there is a reason why there was no E89 M and no G29-based M is currently planned either.

In any case, let's not forget that I was responding to this point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
Any full ///M... really only make sense if the BMW is a Coupe...
As the numbers from the wikipedia page you linked to show, the roadster outsold the coupe in both the US and ROW. You point out that the coupe was not on the market as long. Ok, fair enough, but in any case, roadster sales made up a significant portion of the total volume. And since the two models shared many parts, without those sales, the situation goes from less than ideal to disastrous. So if we are saying that there is no business case for an M roadster, then a coupe-only effort would make even less sense.

I think the real problem lies here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Z4_(E85)#Production

Very telling. Once you take the performance of the M model out of the equation, coupe sales become a tiny fraction of roadster sales. So, its hard to justify the coupe to begin with. And, if there is no series coupe, obviously there can't be an M coupe either.
The E85/6 M's arrived at a very bad economic time that significantly impacted sales. The market didn't stabilize when the E89 arrived and continued to decline. The already high price would have made a Z4M too expensive (nearly as much as an M6 Conv). Without the Toyota Strategic Investment Agreement, the G29 would have been shelved. In fact, the decision to execute that portion of the agreement was not made until the very last minute.

It isn't hard to justify. The potential number of conquest/Loyalty/Upsell transactions over the M40i Roadster are catastrophically low. The fact that there IS a series coupe opens up an opportunity for those markets that have adopted the UNGTR's and are taking advantage of the free-trade agreements. An M Coupe would cost no more to bring to market than the Roadster and allows a unique positioning plan.


Quote:
Originally Posted by supra93 View Post
I know there was a lot of back and forth on this, but are we still expecting the BMW to be a roadster only and the Toyota a coupe?
As far as the contract is concerned, those two are all it includes. If anything is added, it won't be for a few years.
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      07-23-2017, 01:24 PM   #614
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
Yet everyone is going back to fabric on everything that can't get away with a Folding Hard Targa configuration.



Hmm what's very different about their design and purpose? Guess Mercedes is backwards too.
Rag=backwards, period. No argument can be made. "Everybody"? Many ppl regress, so others should follow suit?

Re supercar brands, sure, but they could've been lazy like BMW and put a rag and called it the day, but luckily they're not and actually did something much better. Never cared for Merc, such a boring, non-sporty brand for old rich dudes. Their latest offering is just uber-rice German-style.

Last edited by tranquility; 07-23-2017 at 01:48 PM..
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      07-23-2017, 02:16 PM   #615
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Originally Posted by wdb View Post
Every time I look at used cars with folding hardtops the questions about whether they still work or not abound. They're cute and clever but their mechanisms don't stand the test of time.
What cars have you looked at with a folding metal roof, and how many of those did not work?

I've looked at ragtops and everyone had an issue. Weathered fabric,rips, tears, etc.
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      07-23-2017, 03:21 PM   #616
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
Rag=backwards, period. No argument can be made. "Everybody"? Many ppl regress, so others should follow suit?

Re supercar brands, sure, but they could've been lazy like BMW and put a rag and called it the day, but luckily they're not and actually did something much better. Never cared for Merc, such a boring, non-sporty brand for old rich dudes. Their latest offering is just uber-rice German-style.
Hmm going in together (McLaren and Ferrari) on the same Webasto roof that weighs 101lbs is some how not being lazy? What are Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Audi, Porsche, Rolls Royce, etc etc doing? Whole lazy lot of 'em.
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