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      06-05-2014, 12:18 PM   #1
bigbrian
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Blow Off Valves - M6 S63TU?

Has anyone installed aftermarket blow off valves or external waste gates on these cars? I am venturing out of my 'comfort zone' asking this so any input is appreciated (good or bad). Thanks!

Brian
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/// 2o13 m6 f13 . jb4 tuned . meth injected . msr intake . 21" adv1 wheels . eisenmann race w/ catless DPs . vorsteiner full aero . accuair e-level w/ bagged KW V3 struts . dinan sways . bel stir+ w/ alp jammer . jl audio subs
/// 2o13 x5m e70 . velos tuned . 22" adv1 wheels . dropped on kw variant3 coilovers . passport 9500ci radar & jammer. gets groceries fast

Last edited by bigbrian; 06-05-2014 at 12:37 PM..
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      06-05-2014, 12:53 PM   #2
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I believe the waste gate is part of the garret turbo housing . The bov are recirc so I would image easly replaceable with after market units .

The Bov won't make any performance improvements , but will give you better sweeeeesh noise ! . I am looking forward to your feedback on your Dp and resonator deletes . Will you be monitoring the AFR due to better flow with the system ?

Are you using a piggy back at the moment ?
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      06-05-2014, 03:02 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michel lane View Post
I believe the waste gate is part of the garret turbo housing . The bov are recirc so I would image easly replaceable with after market units .

The Bov won't make any performance improvements , but will give you better sweeeeesh noise ! . I am looking forward to your feedback on your Dp and resonator deletes . Will you be monitoring the AFR due to better flow with the system ?

Are you using a piggy back at the moment ?
Do you happen to know of the "better" manufactures of the aftermarket BOVs? I will do my homework as well (obviously) but if I can find the top dog in the space that would be great. I am mainly looking for the added "swooooooooshhhh" noice (I know kind of dumb but it's a preference).

I am not currently monitoring AFR however somewhere along the line I will install an AFR gauge. So with that said I won't know AFR values immediately after the install of the DPs and mid pipes.

I am using the BMS JB Stage 1 (piggy back) from Burger Motorosports. It's set at +3 on the boost setting.

Brian
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/// 2o13 m6 f13 . jb4 tuned . meth injected . msr intake . 21" adv1 wheels . eisenmann race w/ catless DPs . vorsteiner full aero . accuair e-level w/ bagged KW V3 struts . dinan sways . bel stir+ w/ alp jammer . jl audio subs
/// 2o13 x5m e70 . velos tuned . 22" adv1 wheels . dropped on kw variant3 coilovers . passport 9500ci radar & jammer. gets groceries fast
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      06-05-2014, 03:16 PM   #4
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There are many Bov available . Some are piston based and some are diaphragm based . The stock units are diaphragm based to reduce the size of the units. I would suggest finding the location of the stock units and measuring the take off hose . Then you can pair up the Bov according to the size of the hose .

Turbo smart , Tial , Hks , even some cheap ebay units do a pretty good job. Make sure you position the BOV away from the turbo's or near the exhaust manifolds. Sometimes the Bov releases oil residue from the turbo's so it will ignite near a strong heat source .

I would start at finding the size first then work out which manufactures support the hose size . If it's a 2 bolt design , then you may need to fabricate an attachment to the new Bov .

I would recommend a AFR gauge before WOT when changing the exhaust setup . Look at AEM solution , wireless solution and uses your mobile phone as gauge.
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      06-05-2014, 03:23 PM   #5
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I would also like to see a aftermarket blow of valve.
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      06-05-2014, 03:24 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michel lane View Post
There are many Bov available . Some are piston based and some are diaphragm based . The stock units are diaphragm based to reduce the size of the units. I would suggest finding the location of the stock units and measuring the take off hose . Then you can pair up the Bov according to the size of the hose .

Turbo smart , Tial , Hks , even some cheap ebay units do a pretty good job. Make sure you position the BOV away from the turbo's or near the exhaust manifolds. Sometimes the Bov releases oil residue from the turbo's so it will ignite near a strong heat source .

I would start at finding the size first then work out which manufactures support the hose size . If it's a 2 bolt design , then you may need to fabricate an attachment to the new Bov .

I would recommend a AFR gauge before WOT when changing the exhaust setup . Look at AEM solution , wireless solution and uses your mobile phone as gauge.
Thanks for the information michel as this definitely gives me somewhere to start!

I am curious as to why the AFR is so important with the new exhaust setup (catless DPs and resonator delete)... What would change (that is of importance) once the spent gasses are exiting through the exhaust pipes (biggest difference being no cats). The mixture into the engine would be the same/unaffected so what is the issue on spent gasses existing (from an AFR standpoint) if nothing is changing on the intake? I am truly asking out of curiosity as I was unaware there could be potential issues here. Or are you referring to AFR being of importance w/ aftermarket blow off valve in place?

Brian
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/// 2o13 m6 f13 . jb4 tuned . meth injected . msr intake . 21" adv1 wheels . eisenmann race w/ catless DPs . vorsteiner full aero . accuair e-level w/ bagged KW V3 struts . dinan sways . bel stir+ w/ alp jammer . jl audio subs
/// 2o13 x5m e70 . velos tuned . 22" adv1 wheels . dropped on kw variant3 coilovers . passport 9500ci radar & jammer. gets groceries fast
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      06-05-2014, 04:18 PM   #7
michel lane
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When you are running turbo charged cars with cats as a stock setup, there are restrictions on the flow of gases out of the exhaust due to the restrictions. If you remove these restrictions then the gases will flow better , causing over boost . Over boost usually takes the fuelling map out of its optimum zone, it may cause the car to run lean or rich .

The piggy back ECU will increase the boost by fooling the Ecu on the readings. Depending on how much the map has been adjusted to compensate for over boost , you may fall into an area of the map which has more or less fuel or ignition timing .

Most cars will compensate for around 10% over boost , but when you combine increase of boost with de-cats you will get more boost, therefor falling into area's of the map where it is not running optimal.

People have this understanding that more boost creates more power , this is not that case when you are using a stock ecu with piggyback unless the fuelling and ignition has been reviewed. My knowledge with the bmw piggyback is very slim unfortunately as I am familiar with stand alone ecu such as motek ,Aem, syvecs.

Sometimes you gain more peak power but when you look at the map, you may be surprised that you are actually getting less power before peak compared to the stock setting .

Running lean causes higher EGT , which will cause hotter running engines therefore result in piston failures .
Maybe I am just to cautious , but from experience in the past with big HP cars , it works out better.

Last edited by michel lane; 06-06-2014 at 03:30 AM..
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      06-05-2014, 04:28 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michel lane View Post
When you are running turbo charged cars with cats as a stock setup, there are restrictions on the flow of gases out of the exhaust due to the restrictions. If you remove these restrictions then the gases will flow better , causing over boost . Over boost usually takes the fuelling map out of its optimum zone, it may cause the car to run lean or rich .

The piggy back ECU will increase the boost by fooling the Ecu on the readings. Depending on how much the map has been adjusted to compensate for over boost , you may fall into an area of the map which has more or less fuel or ignition timing .

Most cars will compensate for around 10% over boost , but when you combine increase of boost with de-cats you will get more boost, therefor falling into area's of the map where it is not running optimal.

People have this understanding that more boost creates more power , this is not that case when you are using a stock ecu with piggyback unless the fuelling and ignition has been reviewed. My knowledge with the bmw piggyback is very slim unfortunately as I am familiar with stand alone ecu such as motek ,Aem, syvecs.

Sometimes you gain more peak power but when you look at the map, you may be surprised that you are actually getting less power before peak compared to the stock setting .

Running lean causes higher EGT , which will cause hotter running engines therefore result in piston failures . I currently run the BMS and have set it to 2.75 and it feels faster then set at 3 , but this suits my style of driving. The delivery of power just feels smoother , have a read on the thread from my dyno experience with AFR .

Maybe I am just to cautious , but from experience in the past with big HP cars , it works out better.
This is great information and I definitely appreciate you taking the time to explain it. Now that you have explained it I understand the importance of monitoring the AFR with the car de-catted.

I am going to hop over and order an AFR gauge now vs. waiting a while to do it. I might bump down the setting on the BMS until I can get an AFR reading (it's currently set at 3) just to be on the safe side.

Thanks again for the info!

Brian
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/// 2o13 m6 f13 . jb4 tuned . meth injected . msr intake . 21" adv1 wheels . eisenmann race w/ catless DPs . vorsteiner full aero . accuair e-level w/ bagged KW V3 struts . dinan sways . bel stir+ w/ alp jammer . jl audio subs
/// 2o13 x5m e70 . velos tuned . 22" adv1 wheels . dropped on kw variant3 coilovers . passport 9500ci radar & jammer. gets groceries fast
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      06-05-2014, 04:30 PM   #9
michel lane
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After seeing various dyno readings with de-cats, exhaust , piggyback etc.. I was a little concerned on the AFR readings on the runs . Some where hitting 14:1 and some 15:1 , I know I keep banging about this , but knowledge shared in this area is always a good contribution to the forum, before someone's engine goes bang ! . An ideal reading is between 11.5:1 to 12.5:1 on full boost .

I know the boost controller will accommodate for boost correction , but will it compensate in contribution with the piggyback which is fooling the boost settings already ?
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      06-05-2014, 04:35 PM   #10
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I am currently waiting for mine to arrive. The bmw has 2 narrow band lambda sensors before the cats , I would weld the wideband further down the stream of the lambda sensor.
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      06-05-2014, 05:04 PM   #11
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I just ordered the AEM AFR gauge found here: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/avm-30-4100

You think welding it right after the downpipe connects to the mid pipe would be a good location? Or would you do it further up on the downpipe after the secondary o2 sensor? I would rather NOT remove the downpipe if not needed.

Brian
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/// 2o13 m6 f13 . jb4 tuned . meth injected . msr intake . 21" adv1 wheels . eisenmann race w/ catless DPs . vorsteiner full aero . accuair e-level w/ bagged KW V3 struts . dinan sways . bel stir+ w/ alp jammer . jl audio subs
/// 2o13 x5m e70 . velos tuned . 22" adv1 wheels . dropped on kw variant3 coilovers . passport 9500ci radar & jammer. gets groceries fast
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      06-05-2014, 10:25 PM   #12
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Guys I'm getting ready to combine ethanol along with stage 2 bms. For meth. What is your guys input on that?
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      06-05-2014, 10:51 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlashM6 View Post
Guys I'm getting ready to combine ethanol along with stage 2 bms. For meth. What is your guys input on that?
When did the BMS Stage 2 come out? What are the advantages over Stage 1?

Brian
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      06-06-2014, 12:36 AM   #14
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That location would be fine . Will you be running ethanol mix with the fuel or spray ? I used to run a spray with my other car when run higher bots then normal , this will reduce detonation considerably .

Having a mix with the fuel, I would suggest looking at the fuel rail and materials used to contain the fuel mixture . Some hoses and alloys corrode with alternative additive if used often . I ran a mix with my single supra for around 5 months which gave me an additional tuning scope , but unfortunately after after closer inspection with the fuel lines/rails
/injectors , I noticed considerable chemical corrosion . This meant replacing effected items such as fuel lines and injector seals.

The benefits were substantial initially , but the long term potential problems were not cost effective. After this I just used used a water injection spray system to add ethanol into the intake chamber when running high boost .

The best solution in my views for these cars to gain more power correctly is to access the ecu and modify the fuelling and ignition map. Alternatively a replacement Ecu would be the next best bet . I have a friend who developed a be spoken programable ecu called syvecs for the GTR /Supra/TVR and now working on the V10 R8 .

Hopefully when he finished with his new toy , he could have a look at the setup on the M6.
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      06-06-2014, 05:06 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbrian
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlashM6 View Post
Guys I'm getting ready to combine ethanol along with stage 2 bms. For meth. What is your guys input on that?
When did the BMS Stage 2 come out? What are the advantages over Stage 1?

Brian
For meth. Is what I'm hearing?
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      06-06-2014, 08:04 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlashM6 View Post
For meth. Is what I'm hearing?
I know there are input fields on my current BMS Stage 1 for meth values. I have no idea if they are functional or there for "future use".

It will be interesting to see how we can safely pull more power out of these cars. I agree the biggest bang will come when/if someone unlocks the ECU. Until then it's bolt on parts.

Lot of good info in this thread. I will update ya'll to what happens both sound clip and air fuel ratio wise once I get er' put together.

Brian
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      06-06-2014, 12:01 PM   #17
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Looking forward to it
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      06-06-2014, 02:07 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michel lane View Post
I believe the waste gate is part of the garret turbo housing . The bov are recirc so I would imagine easily replaceable with after market units .
Sorry, Michael, but the S63TU does not use blow off valves.

http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=773514

Also, more on this terrific blog owned by a fellow member here:

http://m5carblog.blogspot.ca/2013/01/engine-turbos.html

Quote:
However, the combination of the design of the compressor vanes, Valvetronic and computer control make the system insensitive to pump, and hence no blow-off valve is needed.
Sure, you can install aftermarket ones and get turbos with external wastegates.
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      06-06-2014, 03:04 PM   #19
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Meth plus bms is coming soon.
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      06-07-2014, 02:31 AM   #20
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Thanks for the info , well I guess the designs for this engine are more advance than most standard cars .
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      06-07-2014, 01:30 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s62 View Post
Also, more on this terrific blog owned by a fellow member here:

http://m5carblog.blogspot.ca/2013/01/engine-turbos.html
I have been trying to find something like this since I purchased the car. This is a GREAT write up on the specifics of the engine. Thanks!

btw... It definitely answers my question.

Brian
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/// 2o13 m6 f13 . jb4 tuned . meth injected . msr intake . 21" adv1 wheels . eisenmann race w/ catless DPs . vorsteiner full aero . accuair e-level w/ bagged KW V3 struts . dinan sways . bel stir+ w/ alp jammer . jl audio subs
/// 2o13 x5m e70 . velos tuned . 22" adv1 wheels . dropped on kw variant3 coilovers . passport 9500ci radar & jammer. gets groceries fast
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      06-19-2014, 10:23 AM   #22
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You are welcome, Brian.
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