M School

[C5driver]

Has anyone attended the 2 day M School and if so, any advice, tips or tricks (other than not crashing into things) prior to attending?

BMW has partnered with the Thermal Club (http://www.thethermalclub.com/), in the Palm Springs area, to not only provide a West Coast performance driving school, but also a West Coast location to do PCD.

I'm planning on December or January when the ambient temps are lower.

[chask]

I'm jealous. Good luck and have fun. I hope you come away with a great deal of knowledge and new respect for your car. Performance driving is a lot of fun. Having the opportunity to learn from someone who really knows is a great thing to take advantage of. I wish they did one of those around me. It's been a long time since that sort of thing was possible. I learned a lot just watching one of the guys BMW took around the country to demonstrate their cars to the dealership sales people.

Speaking of which, this reminds me about something you might want to be aware of. One of the stories I heard of the salesmen school they (BMW) ran at Lime Rock was about another driver - a pretty famous guy who has been on TV from time to time (still see/hear him these days). This was when BMW introduced some new front suspension for the 7 series that was supposed to make the car very stable and forgiving under difficult circumstances. To demonstrate this they had set up this large puddle or pool of water on one side of the track (so only one side of the car would hit it) near the end of a long straightaway (so the car was moving at a very high rate of speed at the time it hit it). I want to say BMW had brought 4 or 5 drivers and the cars were filled with sales people; one in front and at least two if not three in back (for some reason I want to say three in back but that might be wrong). Just as he was about to hit this puddle this driver would turn to glance in that back (as if to speak with someone back there), putting his right arm up on the seat beside him in order to get an easier view of the person back there. With the technology of the day (prior to this new suspension) this maneuver would have almost guaranteed a spin and at least quite a bit of out of control travel. And as I remember the story they were traveling at somewhere around 100 mph or above. Needless to say there were some screams, gasps accompanied by a lot of white knuckled grasps on whatever was close that could have easily removed very secure parts of the interior. But something BMW had done with the new suspension and linkage on the 7 series had all but made that nearly impossible. It was ingenious and worked very well. The guy I worked with at the time (the one who told me the story) had been one of those drivers and he demonstrated it to me with a car in the shop at the time. Got to admit I was a bit apprehensive that first time, even though I knew for certain what the new suspension was supposed to be capable of. The way it was told to me I am not sure if it was so much to mess with the sales people but to really stick the memory home of what the car could do and just how special this suspension really was. I also have a feeling though that the driver had a bit of mischievous streak too.

Another guy who was in that same shop ended up at McClaren in Detroit. When I saw him again at McClaren during a trip to the SAE Exposition he told me a story about a contest in their shop. They were campaigning a Group6 car driven by Hans Stuck - want to say it was a Bimmer but I can't remember for sure now (late 70's, early '80's). The winner got a ride around the track with Stuck. As if by divine providence, the guy who won was the guy who pretty much everyone at McClaren generally considered to be the best/craziest fast driver of everyone working there. He went out with Stuck and got so scared he made Stuck stop the car about half way around and walked back.

The point of this is - be careful what you wish for. And who you choose to ride with on the track . . . you may very well get more than you bargained for - far more.

BTW - I've been on one of those rides. And I thought I could drive fast. Boy was I wrong.

I still hear this guy in the story occasionally on one of the racing series I watch with a passion. I always remember him because he drove one of my favorite production cars (the one I owned) for a while in a sanctioned series here in the US. These days he sounds like such a nice guy, with a calm, reassuring voice, coupled with a thought provoking commentary that evokes in me the wisdom of his years in racing. Then I think back about what he did to those poor sales people. I think I was told one guy about lost it (diaper time) and I don't remember but I want to say there may have been a pair or two of wet pants too. Almost everyone screamed; or wanted to.

Yeah, some of those guys are really that fast. But you can definitely learn a lot. Probably a really good idea driving a M.

I never been but the guy who gave me a ride was a driver for them (at least on the dealer demos) and extremely good. I would highly recommend it. If I weren't in such bad shape (to make the trip) or it was closer you couldn't keep me away.

[A Frankfurt]

A couple of my clients (males and females) have attended the BMW performance driving school. All have come back with great feedback on not only a awesome experience but much improved driving skills.
You really push all the M cars to its limits and your own.
Being I'm from southern california I will be attending the west coast driving school to get my own experience.

[dsad1]

Just placed an order for a X5M, I am thinking of possibly changing it to a performance center delivery. Everyone says it's a blast.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by djsaad1

Just placed an order for a X5M, I am thinking of possibly changing it to a performance center delivery. Everyone says it's a blast.

Do you still have B6 on order?

[chask]

I tried editing my post above but got some sort of database error - maybe they're doing maintenance right now.

I wanted to add that I did not mention names because the story was told me in confidence and I am not absolutely sure the guy in the first story would want his name out in conjunction with that tidbit. I assure you that about all of you who remember back to the 60's thru the 80's would know both these names, and many of you for whom that is ancient history would too. As I said, the one in the first story is still in the media doing stuff for a racing series. Except for this little bit of devilish humor (I would have done it too) I also heard nothing but glowing praise about the guy in the first story, not to mention that he was doing exactly what BMW wanted (I was told that every sales person walked away with a solid belief in the ability of that year's 7 series); maybe just not exactly how, but no one was endangered in any way. He was (probably still is) a truly great driver. In addition to being one of the better drivers around I also heard he was one exceptionally neat guy too - I always have wished I had gotten to meet him. I would ride with him any time and it would be a dream fulfilled to be taught to drive by him. I feel the same way about the other guy too; even though I learned a lot from him just riding with him so much. I'll confess I thought I was going to die a couple of times, even though he was never out of control nor was the car ever anywhere near in trouble.

I'd also like to say something else from my experience. I have no clue what everyone's skills are so I'll speak only of mine, but I suspect that the majority of us are not that much different in this area. I used to think I was very fast. And compared to the people around me I was. I was easily about as fast as if not faster than the fastest people I knew, and head and shoulders faster than the vast majority of the rest of them. But I had never been in a car with someone who was truly good on a competitive level. My first dose of reality came riding with a former SCCA national champion. He took a corner I often drove at nearly twice the best speed I could manage. The really humbling part was knowing he was actually not even trying to push hard it and probably could have gone even faster. My next dose of humiliation was with a guy who actually drove in the Indy 500. I know because it was documented on TV more times than I can recall. Remember the old ABC Wide World of Sports promotional ad and usual intro to their sports coverage where they show all these various sports ABC covered all over the world, then the narrator talks about "the thrill of victory . . . and the agony of defeat"? I forget the sport they displayed while the narrator said "the thrill of victory" (some girl gymnast I want to say) but for "the agony of defeat" they showed a brief clip of a driver getting out of an Indy car (that had obviously gone off the track and was stuck in the infield) and then throw his helmet down hard onto the ground. That was the him. I have another story about his skill behind the wheel (this post is already too long), but it is a testimony to his phenomenal ability though. Anyway, they both were so much better it was embarrassing. And they weren't even the best around.

For the record - I would love to attend that course. If I weren't in such bad shape (health issues make the trip almost impossible for me) or if it was closer to me I'd sign up in a heartbeat and travel about anywhere to be there. What a great opportunity, not to mention a fun trip! I doubt if I ever had it in me to drive like those guys I mentioned above or the ones I watch on TV now, but I know I could have been a lot better with some training and practice. Perhaps if I had started with some training early enough, and got lots of practice.

Take advantage of this if you can. Don't try to kid yourself. You would not own an M6 if you did not like the idea of what the car can do; what it's designed to do. Frankly I cannot believe anyone who would own a M series car would not think that, and especially not a M6 owner. I'll bet your only regret afterwards will be that you did not do it sooner, and more often.

You might also consider getting some kind of performance monitor and getting used to it before you go. Not trying to recommend a brand but something along the lines of a VBox or a DriftBox (slower position acquisition rate but it records the drift angle too), perhaps with a camera or two. I've never owned one or used one (any kind of performance monitor) but I've been thinking about it now that I have a M6. There are several brands out there that do the same thing as a VBox or maybe even more. Some will allow you to record a full day's driving and later overlay performance information on top of the video. Some I looked at will even put two runs side by side - two of yours, or one of yours and one of another car. A few can even divide up the track into segments (or sectors as they say on Formula One) then help you recognize where you might pick up some time in each of them. I would think it would be a good way to follow up on what you learned (something else to do in the evenings), not to mention having a record of what you did at the school for after you get home (assuming they will let you record it). It's something I would do if I were going to go. I hope some others will chime in on this. This is definitely one area where I am way beyond my understanding of performance driving and I'd love to hear what someone who knows has to say about these things.

[dsad1]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Do you still have B6 on order?

Yeah, I am curious what will be first. B6 ED, or X5M delivery.

[AllCarbonEverything]

I will be attending but if you look now the first open classes are october or november. they fill up quite fast.

[C5driver]

Originally Posted by chask

The point of this is - be careful what you wish for. And who you choose to ride with on the track

So you're saying bring some Dramamine?

Originally Posted by chask

Yeah, some of those guys are really that fast. But you can definitely learn a lot.

In gunfighting, fast is smooth and smooth is fast. I would imagine the same principles apply on the track, especially with vehicle dynamics.

[C5driver]

Originally Posted by Autohaus Frankfurt

Being I'm from southern california I will be attending the west coast driving school to get my own experience.

When were you thinking? Looks like I'll be going in January.

[Mr.SugarSkulls]

Originally Posted by C5driver

When were you thinking? Looks like I'll be going in January.

Maybe if we do a group they'll give discounts?! *AhemM6coupeahem*

Ps shipping vessel assigned! Leaves the 24th, arrives to port Hueneme July 18th! (Which also happens to be my birthday )

[C5driver]

Originally Posted by chask

I have another story about his skill behind the wheel (this post is already too long), but it is a testimony to his phenomenal ability though. Anyway, they both were so much better it was embarrassing. And they weren't even the best around.

Every dude on the planet with a normal testosterone count is a(n) 1. expert shooter, 2. race car driver, and 3. MMA fighter. Just ask YouTube.

I must need TRT, because I'm heading into this class as the proverbial human sponge and hoping to have some good take aways for real life/street/emergency situations.

AutoX and track days may be in the future.

Originally Posted by chask

You would not own an M6 if you did not like the idea of what the car can do; what it's designed to do. Frankly I cannot believe anyone who would own a M series car would not think that, and especially not a M6 owner. I'll bet your only regret afterwards will be that you did not do it sooner, and more often.

Exactly. It's cool to have the bling bling mods, but it would be interesting to check out the limits of the M6 and compare it to the 2, 3, and 4, with professional instruction and in a controlled environment.

Originally Posted by chask

You might also consider getting some kind of performance monitor and getting used to it before you go.

Good idea.

[C5driver]

Originally Posted by AllCarbonEverything

I will be attending but if you look now the first open classes are october or november. they fill up quite fast.

Dec and Jan have no one enrolled. When will you be going?

[C5driver]

Originally Posted by Mr.SugarSkulls

Maybe if we do a group they'll give discounts?! *AhemM6coupeahem*

January??

Originally Posted by Mr.SugarSkulls

Leaves the 24th, arrives to port Hueneme July 18th! (Which also happens to be my birthday )

How cool is this?! Congrats Rob!

[chask]

Originally Posted by chask

I tried editing my post above but got some sort of database error - maybe they're doing maintenance right now.

I wanted to add that I did not mention names because the story was told me in confidence and I am not absolutely sure the guy in the first story would want his name out in conjunction with that tidbit. I assure you that about all of you who remember back to the 60's thru the 80's would know both these names, and many of you for whom that is ancient history would too. As I said, the one in the first story is still in the media doing stuff for a racing series. Except for this little bit of devilish humor (I would have done it too) I also heard nothing but glowing praise about the guy in the first story, not to mention that he was doing exactly what BMW wanted (I was told that every sales person walked away with a solid belief in the ability of that year's 7 series); maybe just not exactly how, but no one was endangered in any way. He was (probably still is) a truly great driver. In addition to being one of the better drivers around I also heard he was one exceptionally neat guy too - I always have wished I had gotten to meet him. I would ride with him any time and it would be a dream fulfilled to be taught to drive by him. I feel the same way about the other guy too; even though I learned a lot from him just riding with him so much. I'll confess I thought I was going to die a couple of times, even though he was never out of control nor was the car ever anywhere near in trouble.

I'd also like to say something else from my experience. I have no clue what everyone's skills are so I'll speak only of mine, but I suspect that the majority of us are not that much different in this area. I used to think I was very fast. And compared to the people around me I was. I was easily about as fast as if not faster than the fastest people I knew, and head and shoulders faster than the vast majority of the rest of them. But I had never been in a car with someone who was truly good on a competitive level. My first dose of reality came riding with a former SCCA national champion. He took a corner I often drove at nearly twice the best speed I could manage. The really humbling part was knowing he was actually not even trying to push hard it and probably could have gone even faster. My next dose of humiliation was with a guy who actually drove in the Indy 500. I know because it was documented on TV more times than I can recall. Remember the old ABC Wide World of Sports promotional ad and usual intro to their sports coverage where they show all these various sports ABC covered all over the world, then the narrator talks about "the thrill of victory . . . and the agony of defeat"? I forget the sport they displayed while the narrator said "the thrill of victory" (some girl gymnast I want to say) but for "the agony of defeat" they showed a brief clip of a driver getting out of an Indy car (that had obviously gone off the track and was stuck in the infield) and then throw his helmet down hard onto the ground. That was the him. I have another story about his skill behind the wheel (this post is already too long), but it is a testimony to his phenomenal ability though. Anyway, they both were so much better it was embarrassing. And they weren't even the best around.

For the record - I would love to attend that course. If I weren't in such bad shape (health issues make the trip almost impossible for me) or if it was closer to me I'd sign up in a heartbeat and travel about anywhere to be there. What a great opportunity, not to mention a fun trip! I doubt if I ever had it in me to drive like those guys I mentioned above or the ones I watch on TV now, but I know I could have been a lot better with some training and practice. Perhaps if I had started with some training early enough, and got lots of practice.

Take advantage of this if you can. Don't try to kid yourself. You would not own an M6 if you did not like the idea of what the car can do; what it's designed to do. Frankly I cannot believe anyone who would own a M series car would not think that, and especially not a M6 owner. I'll bet your only regret afterwards will be that you did not do it sooner, and more often.

You might also consider getting some kind of performance monitor and getting used to it before you go. Not trying to recommend a brand but something along the lines of a VBox or a DriftBox (slower position acquisition rate but it records the drift angle too), perhaps with a camera or two. I've never owned one or used one (any kind of performance monitor) but I've been thinking about it now that I have a M6. There are several brands out there that do the same thing as a VBox or maybe even more. Some will allow you to record a full day's driving and later overlay performance information on top of the video. Some I looked at will even put two runs side by side - two of yours, or one of yours and one of another car. A few can even divide up the track into segments (or sectors as they say on Formula One) then help you recognize where you might pick up some time in each of them. I would think it would be a good way to follow up on what you learned (something else to do in the evenings), not to mention having a record of what you did at the school for after you get home (assuming they will let you record it). It's something I would do if I were going to go. I hope some others will chime in on this. This is definitely one area where I am way beyond my understanding of performance driving and I'd love to hear what someone who knows has to say about these things.

Originally Posted by C5driver

So you're saying bring some Dramamine?

In gunfighting, fast is smooth and smooth is fast. I would imagine the same principles apply on the track, especially with vehicle dynamics.

No, Dramamine won't help this. It's hard to describe what it is like going into a corner so fast you think there is no way you won't go careening off into the a wall somewhere. All you think is there is no way you are coming out of it alive. And that is not tongue in cheek - the first time he did it really fast I actually thought I was going to die right then. Of course it was on a winding road in New England, the ones typically lined with the stone walls made from stones that grow out of the farming land right next to them. This particular corner was marked 20 mph (down from 30). It was sort of a J shape with a little S coming off the lower part of the J. In all I would say it was about a 245-260 degree turn. I could comfortably do it at around the speed limit and much above 25 was pushing it - a lot. I should add that there was nothing anywhere near this corner except for a relatively dry depression and a reasonably sized tree on the inside of the turn(s) (what it was meant to go around) and stone walls on the outside. As you went down a bit into this turn complex you could clearly see any traffic coming the other way. There was no danger of hurting anyone but yourself, and at the speeds most could take that corner, the worst case would be a little fender bender - the way the turn worked driving it, the main trouble would be sliding off into the outside and scraping the wall.

This particular time he approached it from the S side at nearly 50-55, slowed to 45-50 or so as he went into it and accelerated about half way into the J. I guess at the speed because I was so terrified. I only noticed the speed once we got close half way around the lower part of the J where he started to accelerate hard again.

Yeah, one thing I learned is that smooth is vital. Even if the car is light, there is still inertia in the mass. It's takes time to get that inertial momentum changed to a new direction (the lighter the less time). It's not too hard to kick the tail from side to side, but doing it at just the right moment is. The biggest problem is that the faster you go the less time you have to react, and there is rarely any time for a correction. You really have to be thinking ahead and moving in anticipation of what is going to happen next. I think where you get into trouble when driving at that limit is if your movement is wrong (not perfect for that situation). This throws you off going into the next sequence. If that "corner" ends up in a short straight no big deal. But if it's the start of another maneuver then the entire next sequence will be even further off (be off the best line) and you will have to slow down from that edge or limit, or you go off the track or spin. Guys who can consistently do this time and time again are pretty rare. I've never been but from what I understand about it driving school will help you learn to feel the car and how to anticipate these things - what you have to do to put the car in the right attitude to keep the speed up. I may not have said the above correctly but it's basically what I remember hearing from the guy who took me into that corner. Among other things - I believe he taught for a while at one of the premier driving schools of the day, I know he was a SCCA national champion, and that BMW hired him at least at one time to go around the country demonstrating the cars to sales people. Needless to say, he was/is very good. I suspect though that he was not one of the best or he probably would have been racing more. Then again he had a family and perhaps did not want that lifestyle nor to accept the risks associated with it.

Originally Posted by C5driver

Every dude on the planet with a normal testosterone count is a(n) 1. expert shooter, 2. race car driver, and 3. MMA fighter. Just ask YouTube. . . .

Can we talk about shooting here? Seriously? You guys are from CA. No offense but over this way there are some people who say La La Land for all the anti-weapon and other stuff going on that many on your coast seem to want to push this way.

Originally Posted by C5driver

. . . I must need TRT, because I'm heading into this class as the proverbial human sponge and hoping to have some good take aways for real life/street/emergency situations. . . .

This is the absolute best attitude. I think you are going to come away with everything you hope for, and probably then some.

Originally Posted by C5driver

. . . AutoX and track days may be in the future.

Again the perfect attitude in my mind. This stuff is for the track - a controlled environment where you can learn without accidentally harming anyone and there is help should you have a problem.

The only caveat is from some of the videos I see online. There are several of the Nurbergring that show open track days with idiots out there no paying attention to faster cars coming up behind them. I see a lot of pretty bad body damage if not totaled cars from some slow idiot suddenly taking the fast line on a corner just as a really fast car is closing on them. A few of those cars even do some heavy duty flipping. We used to call them endos at the dirt track (open wheel dirt racers got into that a lot, especially with the newer guys out there) - the car up in the air flipping with the nose then rear hitting the ground and only stopping when enough speed has been shed by the repeated banging of ends of the car on the road surface. This is not something you want to do to that beautiful car of yours. Just keep your distance. Know who else is out there and their abilities (especially if they are newbies). Best to ask people who have gone - ones who know the track and what the particular open days are like. I have seen a post or two by the guy at Trinity (Joe I think) that make me think he would be a good one to ask - looked like he had a lot of experience and was pretty good from some of the comments I read and looking at the pictures he posted. Isn't he over your way? I'm sure there are a lot of others around here who would be good to ask too - he's just the one that first came to mind since I just read that thread.

Originally Posted by C5driver

Exactly. It's cool to have the bling bling mods, but it would be interesting to check out the limits of the M6 and compare it to the 2, 3, and 4, with professional instruction and in a controlled environment.

To me low performance cars driven like a little old lady are dangerous. If for nothing else, it's not safe to pass people. And safely merging into highway speed traffic from 25-35 mph city streets is harder too. Just like braking, you need to be driving a car that is responsive, and I mean in all modes - braking, turning, stopping and getting going. Driven responsibly I think that is probably a far safer car.

I'm not advocating driving fast, just driving safely. Don't dawdle and get where you are going as quickly as you safely can. That way you minimize the time you are exposed to other traffic and the idiots out there who might cause you to be in an accident. Driving skills like those taught in driving schools on the street are to help you get out of those bad situations safely. I'm not going to jinx myself by bragging about it but let's just say last time I had an interaction with another car or a police officer about my driving was before many of you were born, and no one would say I putz around on the road. I just keep my focus on the road and other cars around me and try to minimize the time I have to be around them.

Originally Posted by C5driver

When were you thinking? Looks like I'll be going in January.

Originally Posted by C5driver

Dec and Jan have no one enrolled. When will you be going?

Boy that is tempting. Cold is definitely better for turbo motors.

Where is this place? There is a show in Vegas sometime in January I like to try to attend but after this last year I don't think I am up to flying there anymore. If the dates coincide maybe I could do this at the same time. I'd love to have some professional training. Not to mention the fun of driving around a track.

Read up on those performance monitors. I think of the ones I have checked out so far I'd get one with a GPS sensor that does the maximum sampling rate of the GPS (20 Hz), except for that DriftBox that also does the drift angle (it's only 10 Hz but that drift angle might make up for it. I have read that the drift angle is helpful for serious driving improvement (that last tenth or two in a sector). I'd talk to the VBox people to see what they say, and to other people who use one or another brand. I guess a lot of it depends on how serious you want to get. You can easily spend $2-5K on a system with a few cameras, lots of vehicle inputs and plenty of recording time. That would buy some nice performance mods and a good tune. But if you already have that stuff and you want to go faster I guess it's the next step. It's certainly what the pros seem to be doing.

I think I would also want to be able to overlay various vehicle parameters on the video of the track image to see how the car was doing with the way I was controlling the car (the brake, throttle and steering wheel) in addition to as much of what is going on with the car as I could record (RPM, gear, maybe boost, and possibly others that elude me right now). The current gear could be grabbed with proper location of a camera or a picture in picture image of the gear selection on the dash displayed along the bottom of the track video.

I'll send you a couple of PM's about some of this. This is already way too long for a post.

[PEHM5]

I attended the M Performance School a couple of weeks ago at the Thermal Facility. It was the one day course and it was FANTASTIC! You spend the day driving M3s and M4s. I came away with a much better understanding of the capabilities of the M cars handling and performance. The best part after spending the day driving the M cars was the ride along with the instructors who demonstrated the full potential of these vehicles with the traction control completely turned off! Trust me...you WILL enjoy your time at the BMW track. I sure did in-spite of the 112 degrees outside temperature.

[C5driver]

Originally Posted by chask

Where is this place?

Thermal, CA! Just outside palm Springs.

[C5driver]

Originally Posted by PEHM5

I attended the M Performance School a couple of weeks ago at the Thermal Facility. It was the one day course and it was FANTASTIC! You spend the day driving M3s and M4s. I came away with a much better understanding of the capabilities of the M cars handling and performance. The best part after spending the day driving the M cars was the ride along with the instructors who demonstrated the full potential of these vehicles with the traction control completely turned off! Trust me...you WILL enjoy your time at the BMW track. I sure did in-spite of the 112 degrees outside temperature.

Great to hear this. Any exposure to F10s or F13s?

[PEHM5]

Only the instructors were driving the F10s. The F13 were parked. The students were limited to the M3 &4s. I own a F10 M5 and at least for me, the M3 and 4s were appropriate for the class. You will come away from the course with a much better appreciation on how well those M cars are built. They were driven hard and took the punishment without any mechanical issues.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by PEHM5

I attended the M Performance School a couple of weeks ago at the Thermal Facility. It was the one day course and it was FANTASTIC! You spend the day driving M3s and M4s. I came away with a much better understanding of the capabilities of the M cars handling and performance. The best part after spending the day driving the M cars was the ride along with the instructors who demonstrated the full potential of these vehicles with the traction control completely turned off! Trust me...you WILL enjoy your time at the BMW track. I sure did in-spite of the 112 degrees outside temperature.

How much the one day school cost?

[PEHM5]

The M school courses: $1550 for the one day and $3995 for the 2 day course. If you own a M car, it's worth the time and cost. Basically, you arrive arrive 8:15am and spend approximately an hour in the morning going over the what you'll be doing during the course of the day. Once you leave the classroom, you're out in the cars learning cornering techniques, braking, maneuvering, and skid control. Other than the 1 hour lunch break, your out in the cars until 4:30 pm. At the end of the day and if you're up to it, the instructors will take you out on the course and demonstrative how these M cars really handle.

[Mr.SugarSkulls]

Ouch...little steep for my likes.