Dyno'ed M6 on dynojet

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by LSM

Its says 100 Octane. The other says 91 octane. Wouldnt 3 parts 91 and 1 part 100 equal 93.25?? Honest question...

The octane rating may be but my point is the race fuel has additives that allow you're ECU to run more timing irrespective of its octane rating. The amount this is in play depends on the brand of race fuel and it particular formulation. The thing that keeps you're engine from blowing up when it is seeing a surprise 2.5 psi of extra boost is that it in real time adjusts fueling and cuts back timing because of its knock sensors. If it senses less knock it will retard timing less and you make more power. Very powerful modern ECU's like ours will run more aggressive timing than stock and make more power on race fuel. (i.e the E92 M3 did this) This is even more true on high boost high compression motors like the S63 tu. MMT like what Terry uses is an additive that reduces knock to give you the equivalence of a higher octane fuel. I'm saying most race fuels have similar additives in them besides also having a higher octane than pump gas. So its not apples to apples when you say I ran 1/3 parts 100 octane, vs me running 93 from the pump.
George

[LSM]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

The octane rating may be but my point is the race fuel has additives that allow you're ECU to run more timing irrespective of its octane rating. The amount this is in play depends on the brand of race fuel and it particular formulation. The thing that keeps you're engine from blowing up when it is seeing a surprise 2.5 psi of extra boost is that it in real time adjusts fueling and cuts back timing because of its knock sensors. If it senses less knock it will retard timing less and you make more power. Very powerful modern ECU's like ours will run more aggressive timing than stock and make more power on race fuel. (i.e the E92 M3 did this) This is even more true on high boost high compression motors like the S63 tu. MMT like what Terry uses is an additive that reduces knock to give you the equivalence of a higher octane fuel. I'm saying most race fuels have similar additives in them besides also having a higher octane than pump gas. So its not apples to apples when you say I ran 1/3 parts 100 octane, vs me running 93 from the pump.
George

George thanks for the detailed explanation. I truly had no idea I was mixing and matching trying to get to 93-94 figuring it was the same thing. LOL....

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by LSM

George thanks for the detailed explanation. I truly had no idea I was mixing and matching trying to get to 93-94 figuring it was the same thing. LOL....

No worries , race fuel is good stuff .As an example, I inadvertently received the wrong injectors / tune for the pulleys that came with my VT 525 Z4M kit upgrade . So I had fueling for 400whp while my car was trying to make 450 whp with AFR's hitting 14 at redline. Just running a couple of gallons of 100 octane race fuel while i was at the race track for two days kept my engine from exploding and made me never suspect there was a major fueling problem ! ( I was running behind and did not fully test the kit after I upgraded and didn't figure things out until my dyno session the next week. ) I even was running dow a tuned GTR lol.
Thats why I am a little suspicious of numbers once i hear race fuel is involved lol. It can really cover up major issues.

[BTF13M6]

George,

So I am clear.... Do you recommend running 100 octane on a stock engine to improve performance?

Do you not recommend it on a tune because it covers up potential issues?

Sorry, I want more power, but certainly don't want to put the engine at risk. Probably asking for too much

Thanks,

Ben

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by BTF12M6

George,

So I am clear.... Do you recommend running 100 octane on a stock engine to improve performance?

Do you not recommend it on a tune because it covers up potential issues?

Sorry, I want more power, but certainly don't want to put the engine at risk. Probably asking for too much

Thanks,

Ben

100 octane will make more power on a stock engine , until someone tests with and without on a dyno we won't know how much on the S63 TU . I personally don't like running tunes that Require 100 octane to be safe / make power .

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

100 octane will make more power on a stock engine , until someone tests with and without on a dyno we won't know how much on the S63 TU . I personally don't like running tunes that Require 100 octane to be safe / make power .

Completely agree. we all love power and that's why we got this beast but I do not want to push the limits. This engine is really perfect but pushing the limit and putting lots of stress on it, will reduce it's life time. I had the same discussion about launch control and I do not want to abuse the car. BMW recommend 95 and no less than 91.

[BTF13M6]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

100 octane will make more power on a stock engine , until someone tests with and without on a dyno we won't know how much on the S63 TU . I personally don't like running tunes that Require 100 octane to be safe / make power .

George,

If you wouldn't mind, I would like to ask some questions. I sent you a pm.
I really appreciate the help. It's what I like so much about the E63 board.

Ben.

[zoltans4]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

The octane rating may be but my point is the race fuel has additives that allow you're ECU to run more timing irrespective of its octane rating. The amount this is in play depends on the brand of race fuel and it particular formulation. The thing that keeps you're engine from blowing up when it is seeing a surprise 2.5 psi of extra boost is that it in real time adjusts fueling and cuts back timing because of its knock sensors. If it senses less knock it will retard timing less and you make more power. Very powerful modern ECU's like ours will run more aggressive timing than stock and make more power on race fuel. (i.e the E92 M3 did this) This is even more true on high boost high compression motors like the S63 tu. MMT like what Terry uses is an additive that reduces knock to give you the equivalence of a higher octane fuel. I'm saying most race fuels have similar additives in them besides also having a higher octane than pump gas. So its not apples to apples when you say I ran 1/3 parts 100 octane, vs me running 93 from the pump.
George

Im not sure about this. If your 100octane came from a pump in the united states than it is using our AKI system or RON+MON/2 or the average or RON and MON.
So while the guy in the UK can say he is putting 95 in his tank that doesn't mean he is putting better fuel in than you because he is putting in 95 RON which can be 5 points higher depending on the MON test of that fuel.
The RON and MON doesn't care HOW you increase octane. Obviously in fuel you have cleaners, detergents, anti water crap and whatever so they all use additives but these are all figured into the octane number otherwise it wouldn't come out to the RON and MON because those numbers are TEST figures on the anti-knock from standardized engine at certain RPM

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by zoltans4

Im not sure about this. If your 100octane came from a pump in the united states than it is using our AKI system or RON+MON/2 or the average or RON and MON.
So while the guy in the UK can say he is putting 95 in his tank that doesn't mean he is putting better fuel in than you because he is putting in 95 RON which can be 5 points higher depending on the MON test of that fuel.
The RON and MON doesn't care HOW you increase octane. Obviously in fuel you have cleaners, detergents, anti water crap and whatever so they all use additives but these are all figured into the octane number otherwise it wouldn't come out to the RON and MON because those numbers are TEST figures on the anti-knock from standardized engine at certain RPM

I was speaking purely of using race fuel which has anti knock additives vs pump gas in the US . I have no knowledge of what is in "pump" fuel in Europe . I stand by the fact that competition race fuel which is the only high octane fuel we get in the US is superior to any pump gas we can get . When people add it to lower octane fuel in large quantities the end result is more than the "math " would suggest .

[zoltans4]

I'm talking about pump 100 which is I'm sure LSM was using.
'Race fuel' from the barrel and can like 110 and 114 etc are different because gravity and weight are different, but octane by definition in the us is AKI which is the ability to resist knock and tested on a standardized motor.
Had stations only have 2 petrol tanks regular and premium usually 91 and 87, the midgrade 89 pulls from both tanks mixing 87 and 91. Because we use a standardized octane rating calculation you can mix and do the math

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by zoltans4

I'm talking about pump 100 which is I'm sure LSM was using.
'Race fuel' from the barrel and can like 110 and 114 etc are different because gravity and weight are different, but octane by definition in the us is AKI which is the ability to resist knock and tested on a standardized motor.
Had stations only have 2 petrol tanks regular and premium usually 91 and 87, the midgrade 89 pulls from both tanks mixing 87 and 91. Because we use a standardized octane rating calculation you can mix and do the math

The newer race fuels perform beyond what their octane numbers specify , She'll URT advanced is 110 octane but out performs old school 114 leaded in knock resistance because of its additives .

[zoltans4]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

The newer race fuels perform beyond what their octane numbers specify , She'll URT advanced is 110 octane but out performs old school 114 leaded in knock resistance because of its additives .

link? proof? Im also rather uninterested in leaded and fuels above 100 octane as its not petrol anymore. Most people wont be interested in hemorrhaging money buying cans of fuel for thier DD M6

As far as MATH and science for that matter is concerned, LSM is correct in how he is fueling his car to get a 93+ octane

[turbo8765]

Originally Posted by zoltans4

link? proof? Im also rather uninterested in leaded and fuels above 100 octane as its not petrol anymore. Most people wont be interested in hemorrhaging money buying cans of fuel for thier DD M6

As far as MATH and science for that matter is concerned, LSM is correct in how he is fueling his car to get a 93+ octane

The problem is that the RON and in particular the MON standards are a bit antiquated.

Have you read about the single cylinder test engine used in the MON test? It just doesn't relate to modern power plants.

As far as proof… I try to avoid the word proof with respect to this type of discussion. There is, however, a wealth of evidence in the supercharged american V8 forums. Guys previously running purple or blue have been able to run the same timing on URT and make MORE power. URT is an amazing fuel.

[LSM]

Originally Posted by zoltans4

link? proof? Im also rather uninterested in leaded and fuels above 100 octane as its not petrol anymore. Most people wont be interested in hemorrhaging money buying cans of fuel for thier DD M6

As far as MATH and science for that matter is concerned, LSM is correct in how he is fueling his car to get a 93+ octane

This is exactly what I was trying to accomplish...Last night I put in 5 gallons of 100 octane and 10 gallons of 91....So that equals 94 octane when mixed....IS that correct or not, again I'm using 100 octane pump gas and the highest premium we have in cali which is 91 mixing them to attain 93-95 octane

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by LSM

This is exactly what I was trying to accomplish...Last night I put in 5 gallons of 100 octane and 10 gallons of 91....So that equals 94 octane when mixed....IS that correct or not, again I'm using 100 octane pump gas and the highest premium we have in cali which is 91 mixing them to attain 93-95 octane

Where can we find 100 Octane in California? and just for my curiosity how much does it cost?

[zoltans4]

Originally Posted by LSM

This is exactly what I was trying to accomplish...Last night I put in 5 gallons of 100 octane and 10 gallons of 91....So that equals 94 octane when mixed....IS that correct or not, again I'm using 100 octane pump gas and the highest premium we have in cali which is 91 mixing them to attain 93-95 octane

This is 100% correct! octane numbers are a ratio making 100 the highest ratio, when petrol is concerned, higher octane off road fuels are chemically blended fuels, pay no attention to any of that with what your trying to accomplish.
Your mix should give you about 94 octane which is above the 93 you are shooting for to run the increase in boost. With cooler temperatures this wont matter much, but in hotter months you probably may want to make sure you do this mix.

In Vegas 100 is $5 a gallon I think, not too bad if your mixing.

[LSM]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Where can we find 100 Octane in California? and just for my curiosity how much does it cost?

Costs about $8.99/gallon. I only use 5-6 gallons. the rest I put 91 Here is an old list of stations in SoCal...Call them and you can see their pricing and if still open thats what I did

Fullerton
Mark's 76
2043 W Commonwealth Ave. (cross of Gilbert) Between Magnolia and Brookhurst, north of I-5 and 91 Fwy.
(714) 278-0986
Open 24 hours
100 octane unleaded at the pump @ 6.99 (4/18/2007)


Bellflower
Bellflower 76 Service
16719 Lakewood Blvd. Bellflower (562) 633-9176
100 octane in barrels @ 10.00 a gallon (4/18/2007)
110 octane LEADED in barrels @ 10.00 a gallon (4/18/2007)


Huntington Beach
Huntington Beach Car Wash
18971 Beach Blvd near Garfield Ave. (714) 847-4924
Hours: 8 AM - 5 PM, 7 days a week.
100 octane VP Racing at the pump @ 5.89 (4/18/2007)
Pump is padlocked because that pump doesn't have an ATM reader. You'll need to pay inside.

Indio
Clark's Travel Center
82-253 Indio Blvd. (Exit Indio Blvd off I-10) (760) 342-4776
http://www.clarkstravelcenter.com/
Sunoco 100 unleaded at the pump @ 6.19 a gallon (4/18/2007)
Sunoco 110 leaded racing fuel at the pump @ 5.99 a gallon (4/18/2007) Open 24 hours

Laguna Hills
76 Station
25172 Cabot Rd. (near La Paz) (949) 770-8300
101 octane unleaded at the pump @ 8.99 a gallon (4/18/2007)

Los Angeles
Rio Petroleum 76
11675 W. Pico Blvd. (cross of Barrington) (310) 477-6144
100 octane unleaded VP fuel at the pump @ 8.49 a gallon (4/18/2007)

Los Angeles
Brentwood 76
12037 San Vicente Blvd. (cross of Bundy) (310) 476-4818
100 octane unleaded fuel at the pump @ 7.89 a gallon (4/18/2007)

Newport Beach
Newport Hills 76
2690 San Miguel Rd. (949) 644-7151
Hours: 6 AM - 10 PM, 7 AM - 10 PM on Sundays.
100 octane unleaded fuel at the pump @ 7.99 a gallon (4/18/2007)

Norco
Mark's 76
2807 Hamner Ave. (1/2 mile north of Second St. exit from I-15) (951) 278-2330
Hours: 5:30 AM to 10:30 PM
100 octane unleaded at the pump @ 6.97 a gallon (4/18/2007)

Orange
Mitchell's Auto, " The Pit Stop "
700 Chapman Ave. (714) 532-5900
100 octane unleaded at the pump @ 7.35 a gallon (4/18/2007)
110 octane leaded at the pump @ 7.05 a gallon (4/18/2007)

Pasadena
Arroyo Parkway 76
155 E. Glenarm St. (626) 441-3392
South of California Blvd. between Fair Oaks and Los Robles where the 110 Fwy ends
Hours: 6:00 AM to 10:00 PM
100 octane unleaded at pump @ 6.49 a gallon (4/18/2007)

Pomona
Phillips Ranch 76
16 Village Loop Rd. (909) 623-2429
Hours: 5:30 AM to 9:00 PM
100 octane unleaded at pump @ 7.49 a gallon (4/18/2007)

Rancho Santa Fe (near Encinitas off I-5)
VP Racing fuels
6089 La Flecha 858-756-2929
VP racing fuel 100 octane at the pump @ 6.99 a gallon (4/18/2007)

San Marino
Huntington 76
2390 Huntington Drive (626) 286-6030
100 octane unleaded at pump (unconfirmed) (4/18/2007)

West Covina
South Hills 76
150 S. Citrus Ave. (626) 339-8018
100 octane unleaded at pump @ 6.95 a gallon (4/18/2007)

Rosamond
(unconfirmed) Willow Springs Race Way (road track)
http://www.willowspringsraceway.com/home/home.asp
$10 gate fee during weekend events.

Bakersfield
(unconfirmed) Buttonwillow Raceway (road track) http://www.buttonwillowraceway.com/
(located 28 miles northwest of Bakersfield off I-5) $10 gate fee during weekend events.

Downey
Socal Performance
9723 Washburn Road. Downey, CA 90241
(562) 862-9122
Open Mon-Fri; Saturday mornings (Call)
Lowest grade they carry is
108 Octane @ 6.75 per gallon. (4/18/2007)
114 oct @ 7.50 per gallon (4/18/2007)
121 oct @ 8.00 per gallon (4/18/2007)

Socal Performance *Updated 6/21/06
9723 Washburn Road ()
Downey, CA 90241
(562) 862-9122 Open Mon-Fri 8:30AM-5PM; Saturday mornings (Call)
Lowest grade they carry is Leaded 108 Octane @ 5.50 per gallon. (Awesome price!).
You provide your own container or buy their 5 gal container for $22.10.
They also carry Methanol:
2.50 per gallon (you provide container)
38.00 per 5 gallon container.

Orme Brothers Inc. *Updated 5/3/06
18453 Parthenia Pl. ()
Northridge, CA 91325
(877) 676-3277 (877-ORMEBRS)
103 Octane @ $47.50 per 5 gallon sealed containers
They also carry Methanol:
$35.00 per 5 gallon sealed containers

Manning Fuel Inc. (Verified 5/4/06)
8407 Tujunga Ave ()
Sun Valley, Ca 91352
(818) 767-FUEL
8AM-5PM Mon-Fri; Closed Sat.
Octane Levels of 103 thru 117
5 Gallon Jugs from $25.00 - 52.57
30 Gallon Barrel from $207-270
55 Gallon Barrel from $340-518
Methanol:
5 gal can 25.45
30 gal drum 124.20
55 gal drum 189.38

Laguna Express Car Wash - *Thanks boataholic
25172 CABOT RD
Laguna Hills, CA 92653
Confirmed 100 Octane Pump Gas $7.99 on 1/1/07 ()

Blue Star Gas & Mart *Updated 4/24/07 - ()
2155 S. Euclid Ave.()
Ontario, CA North Euclid off the 60FWY @ E. Philadelphia St.
(909) 395-9389
100 Octane = $6.99

VP Racing Fuels *Updated 4/24/07 - ()
34281 Monte Vista Rd.()
Wildomar, CA Between Bundy Canyon and Baxter Rd. off the 15 FWY.
(951) 674-9167
100 Octane = $6.99

Agoura 76
28203 Dorothy Dr. ()
Agoura Hills (818) 991-6241

Bellflower 76 Service
16719 Lakewood Blvd. ()
Bellflower, CA (562) 633-9176
(Verified, 100+ Octane but not pump. Sold in 5gal ($8/per gallon 'fill your own container'-$50.00/per 5 gallon pail if you don't bring your own container & 55gal barrel/$440.00) updated 4/11/06.

Downs Oil Co. (Verified as of 6/28/05)
1296 Magnolia ()
Corona, CA 92879 (909) 737-3421 or 888-910-3835
-Sunoco 110 Leaded Racing Gas - $3.50 a gallon
-Sunoco 122 Leaded Racing Gas - $4.50 a gallon
-Sunoco Methyl Alcohol - $3.00 a gallon
http://www.downs4fuel.com/dcfracing.htm

Huntington Beach Car Wash
18971 Beach Blvd. ()
Huntington Bch. (714) 847-4924
(Verified $5.89 100 Octane Pump)

Mark's 76
(714) 278-0986
2043 W Commonwealth Ave. (cross street Gilbert) ()
Fullerton, CA 92833
(Verified $7.69 100 Octane Pump) * Price updated 1/11/08

Mitchell's Auto, The Pit Stop
700 Chapman Ave.
Orange, CA (714) 532-5900
100 Oct unleaded and 110 Oct leaded @ the pump
()

Huntington 76
2390 Huntington Drive
San Marino, CA (626) 286-6030
100 Oct unleaded @ the pump
()

J & R Shell
1808 White Ave.
La Verne, CA (909) 593-7015

Brentwood 76 Service
12037 San Vicente Blvd. (cross street Bundy) ()
Los Angeles,CA (310) 476-4818
(Verified $6.45 100 Octane Pump)

Graham 76 Service
2690 San Miguel Rd. ()
(405 to 73 New Port to Mac Aurthur Left Anita, Right Prarie in Pavillion Shopping Center)
Newport Bch., CA (949) 644-7151
(Verified $5.49 100 Octane Pump as of 3-1-06)

Mike's 76 Station (Verified)
100- Octane 5.99/gallon
2807 Hamner Ave - (951) 278-2330

F&L Racing Fuel
111 Lead Octane
corner of Engineer road and La Mirada
Vista California
$5.06 gallon

Southern Counties Oil *
1825 W. Collins
Orange, CA (714) 744-7140

Smokey's Auto Parts Speed (Verified)
1602 S Coast Hwy ()
Oceanside, CA 92054
Sunoco 100 Octane

Arroyo Parkway 76 End of freeway 110
155 E. Glenarm ()
Pasadena, CA (626) 441-3392
(Verified was $5.99 100 Octane Pump NOW $6.19 as of 4-11-06; $6.49 per gallon as of 3-5-07)

Phillips Ranch 76
16 Village Loop Rd. ()
Pomona, CA (909) 623-2429
(Verified $5.35 100 Octane Pump)

S.T. Motorsports (Verified )
346 S. I Street Unit #8
San Bernardino CA 92410
(909)388-2536

Cosby Oil Co. (Verified 1/1/07)
6220 Fairmount Ave.
San Diego, CA (619) 280-6884
Cardlock gas station-you can only get gas if you have a credit account with them. They carry various racing gas. ()

JBA Racing ·
VP Race Fuel
5155 Convoy Street
San Diego, CA 92111
Local: (858) 495-3395
Toll Free: (888) JBA-5570
Fax: (858) 495-0954

SKS (Verified)
1730 W. Mission Rd. ()
Escondido, CA 92029
(858)530-1193; 714-533-1379; 1-800-564-0744
F & L 110 Leaded Octane Pump @ $6.08 *Verified 3-5-07


Cosby Oil Co. (Verified)
12902 E. Park St. ()
Santa Fe Springs, CA (562) 946-4404
www.cosbyoil.com
(6.53/per gallon if you provide your own container ($32.65/5gal your own container))
(8.03/per gallon if you buy their 5 gallon pail ($40.15/5gal pail))
(6.93 per gallon/55 gallon drums ($381.15/55gal))
They will drop ship the 55 gal drums and credit you 20.00 when drums are empty and they come pick it up.) updated 4/11/06.

76 - 100 octane (verified)
Pico & Barrington ()
Santa Monica, Ca
$9.45/gal 100 octane

Alliance Gas Station
Sherman Mini Market Verified (4-19-06)
16103 Sherman Way, ()
Van Nuys, CA 91406
(818) 780-8209
Closes at 10PM!

Playa Vista 76
8300 Lincoln Blvd ()
Westchester, CA (310) 649-4683
(Verified $8.75 105 Octane; $7.50 111 Leaded; $9.25 Leaded 118)

Santa Ana Speed Center
120 S. Broadway St. ()
Westchester, CA (714) 835-6424
(Verified $36.50 5gal/100 Octane; $46.85 5gal/105 Octane; $41.80 5gal/118 Octane) No pump/Only 5 Gal F&L tanks.

Kahn 76 Service
150 S. Citrus ()
West Covina, CA (626) 339-8018
(Verified 100 Oct at $6.05)

Woodland Hills, Texaco ()
101 Octane @ $5.60 per gallon pump.
Woodland Hills, CA. Northwest corner of DeSoto and Van Owen

Quick Trip *Updated 2/08/07
596 N Mollison Ave El Cajon, CA 92021
(619)441-3340
100 octane pump gas for $6.99/per gallon.

O.C. Motorsports *Updated 2/08/07
1901 East Edinger Ave. Santa Ana, CA 92705
(714)429-9200
107 LEADED VP Race Fuel $44.00/per 5 gallon containers ONLY.

Chevron Station? *Updated 1/17/08
3804 Ingraham St. San Diego, CA 92109
100 octane VP Racing Gas at the pump. $7.29 a gallon

[M6-Coupe]

Thanks

[mr-karim]

Hey LSM, did you ever connect your BMS box to the laptop?
How much PSI do you have? +2.25 or +2.5?

[mr-karim]

Originally Posted by LSM

I didn't its whatever it was sent as, so much be +2.25?

Normally it's +2.25
Mine was set to 2.5 (Terry changed it for me).
Today I plugged in my laptop to bms (took 1 min) and changed the number from 3 back to 2.5 for my octane level.

[mr-karim]

Let's make it public, maybe it will help others too.

How to change PSI level in BMS
1) First of all you need a cable http://www.burgertuning.com/USB_Cable_Extension.html
2) You will need a windows laptop (doesn't matter if it's windows xp, vista, 7 etc.)
3) Then go ahead and download JB3 software right here http://burgertuning.com/jb3_interface_062312.zip

My BMS box was placed here, the plastic cover is really easy to lift by hand (no tools needed)


When you find the BMS box, connect it to pc


after you connect your BMS box to your PC, hit the start engine button once, in your beautiful m6.


Now, go to your laptop; first click on usb_drivers.exe; Wait until it's done, then click on setup.exe


After clicking on setup.exe, go to settings, here you will need to set the right Com Port number. To find it out, right click on "my computer" then "device manager" then click on the little arrow beside "ports". if it says COM4 you write port 4 in settings, if it says PORT1 you write port 1 in settings etc.


When you done with ports, everything is connected and good to go, click on File/Connect


Now go to user adjustment. And change "boost over stock" from 2.25 to 2.5, then click Save. Don't change other values!


You're done! Now you have to disconnect properly. Click on file/disconnect. Turn off your car by clicking on "start/stop engine". Disconnect your PC and everything, put the BMS box back, and that's it.

Go for a test drive to make sure everything is good.

[TunedM2C]

Nice write up. This is similar to how you would change settings with the JB4 on the N54 motors.