JB4 M6 vs DMS 911Ts

[YungDro]

thread closed....

[M6-Coupe]

It's expected.

Here is the result of battle between M6 CP (575 ps) , 991TTS , R8 V10+ and GTR (Black edition)

M6 CP 100-300 km/h: 26.5 second
991 TTS 100-300 km/h: 26.9 second
GTR 100-300 km/h: 31.6 second
R8 V10+ 100-300 km/h: 36.3 second

http://www.6post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=911274

It's interesting that all 3 AWD cars are faster than M6 CP up to 100 km/h but after that S63tu starts being shinny although M6 100 kg heavier than GTR, 200 kg heavier than R8 and 300 kg heavier than 911

[YungDro]

thread closed....

[speedracerlo]

seriously.. imagine there was an AWD/RWD combo that can be switched

[brad850csi]

Motor mounted way back behind the front wheels connected to a transaxle - similar to the Ferrari FF and a pair of electric motors from an i8 up front would be sweet. All wheel drive, torque vectoring, economy and better weight distribution.

I don't think that will happen though! It'll be S63tu with 600hp and maybe 150kg lighter.

[phoenixbmwlife]

Originally Posted by YungDro

makes me think if the next gen M6 has optional AWD it will be a BEAST at 0to100 +

I think BMW has to bring AWD to the next M6. It's logical because of the amount of power we are at. I mean how much more power can a RWD be able to put on the road after we reach 600HP?

I just watched the RS7 beat the M6 from a dig and we know BMW is going to hit back. Mind you I know they are not exactly in the same class but there is no M7 to do that.

I don't care what everyone at BMW M is saying, AWD is in the future of M. I am certain of it.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by PhoenixWolf

I think BMW has to bring AWD to the next M6. It's logical because of the amount of power we are at. I mean how much more power can a RWD be able to put on the road after we reach 600HP?

I just watched the RS7 beat the M6 from a dig and we know BMW is going to hit back. Mind you I know they are not exactly in the same class but there is no M7 to do that.

I don't care what everyone at BMW M is saying, AWD is in the future of M. I am certain of it.

Well you have good and valid point but still 600 HP can be manageable if other components can support it! A very good example is the RWD McLaren 650s with 640 HP and MUCH lighter than M6. I'm not saying BMW has to put that expensive suspension or rear mounted engine of a super car on next M6 to support 600+ HP since the next generation of M6 will remain GT car, but tuning suspension and changing the weight distribution to have slightly rearward weight distribution (ie 47/53 or 45/55) by adding transaxle configuration and front to mid mounted engine (as brad850csi mentioned earlier) will help a lot to get the car on track with no need to AWD.
As far as RS7, I have to say that car with extremely under steering character is just a straight line rocket up to 100 mph and not comparable with M6GC (the exact competitor of RS7 in BMW lineup). Put them side by side on track or in a rolling race you can see how M6 GC can beat RS7.
Just to give you an idea about RS7, this car has engine mounted in forward of front axle with 56/44 (front/rear) weight distribution and 100lb heavier than M6 GC

[phoenixbmwlife]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Well you have good and valid point but still 600 HP can be manageable if other components can support it! A very good example is the RWD McLaren 650s with 640 HP and MUCH lighter than M6. I'm not saying BMW has to put that expensive suspension or rear mounted engine of a super car on next M6 to support 600+ HP since the next generation of M6 will remain GT car, but tuning suspension and changing the weight distribution to have slightly rearward weight distribution (ie 47/53 or 45/55) by adding transaxle configuration and front to mid mounted engine (as brad850csi mentioned earlier) will help a lot to get the car on track with no need to AWD.
As far as RS7, I have to say that car with extremely under steering character is just a straight line rocket up to 100 mph and not comparable with M6GC (the exact competitor of RS7 in BMW lineup). Put them side by side on track or in a rolling race you can see how M6 GC can beat RS7.
Just to give you an idea about RS7, this car has engine mounted in forward of front axle with 56/44 (front/rear) weight distribution and 100lb heavier than M6 GC

Oh I agree with you on some of your points about the RS7. When I saw the way it leans in turns I was not impressed at all. And as to BMW making changes to the suspension and weight distribution to handle the likes of 600+ HP, I have to see it to believe it as I still think AWD will be in the next M5/M6.

But what do I know? I'm no expert nor do I work for BMW's R&D.

[brad850csi]

I do a lot of driving in my C63, have driven plenty of E46, E92, F82 M3/4s as well as Audi RS3, RS4, S4, S5, S6, RS6 in various generations. I've taken a few M6's for test drives but don't own one yet, still trying to figure out F06 or F13 or F82 at the moment.

But anyway, I've driven them all plenty of times! The C63 matches the RS6 from 60kmh to 180kmh, if anything it pulls about 20 inches on it, they are amazingly close. The F13's I driven have all been non CP cars, so rated at 560hp and they are just so much faster once they are in third gear and have grip, or in 2nd gear with MDM on and a good quality road surface.

The RS6 and RS7 are both about 2040kg, the F13 M6 is about 130kg lighter, and I think Audi tell the truth with their 560hp, whereas BMW is probably about 580-600hp. That combined with a power sucking 4wd and auto setup makes the RS6 a lot slower once you get moving.

The understeer is horrible too! They really do feel like a front wheel drive car with exceptional straight line grip. I thought I was doing good getting through my rear PZero's in the C63 in 15,000km, but the RS6 chewed it's front PZero's in about 12,000km, but the rears were PERFECT and looked 80% new. All Audi's suffer from this because the entire engine is ahead of the front wheels to allow for the front diff, it isn't just the weight distribution but the pendulum effect of the engine being out front.

The interior is all plastic too, Mercedes and BMW both do much better at the same price point.

I used to be an Audi fan but since hanging around them a lot in the last 5 years I've completely gone off them! I really don't desire any Audi's at all now and truly agree with the reviews about lifeless steering and boredom that sets in when driving one, they just don't feel alive or fun at all.


My C63 (510hp and 630nm) on the other hand actually gets grip in 2nd gear in the dry which is something the M6 at 560hp and 680nm (maybe 580-600hp as above) doesn't do.

On the C63 the power is instant and as soon as you hit the throttle the wheels will spin through the rest of first gear, and in the wet it is the same in second gear, instant wheel spin. With the M6 though in second it takes a second or so (from 2000rpm or similar) for the boost to come on, then it still spins the wheels even when the car is starting to rest back on the rear axle and isn't getting that shock load into it. Also note I'm running 265/35/18 PZero's which aren't as good as 295/30/20 Pilot Super Sports. My weight distribution is very similar to the M6, both are around 52% at the front

What I'm getting at, is somewhere between the C63 and the M6 levels of power, the dynamics changes enough that you can't put down the power in second gear reliably. More weight at the back would help, but we don't want to make the car heavier overall! We need BMW to use a lot of weight saving technologies to lower the overall weight, but also a basic layout similar to the Ferarri 612 or FF to get a 44-47% front weight distribution.

Actually the 612 total weight and weight distribution would be a good target for the next M6.

Here is an interesting article. http://www.motortrend.ca/en/car-revi...tribution.html

[RPiM5]

The video is confusing.

On the YouTube description it only says "chip" for the kind of software tune the M6 is running. Chip doesn't necessarily mean a true and just released JB4 from BMS. The M6 in the video could simply be running with the Stage 1 piggyback from BMS, or it could be using the Dinan piggyback or the ESS piggyback, or the Switzer Tune, or some other piggyback module. They are all different and make different levels of power. This is of course assuming that "chip" means piggyback, the author of the video could also mean Flash Tune, in which case there are dozens of vendors out there selling them now and again they are all very different. If the M6 in the video was really running the brand new JB4 from BMS, then does it have the BCM too? I highly doubt it, because they aren't even selling them yet. The new JB4 without the BCM doesn't make any more power than the Stage 1 box. It's just really confusing when people start throwing out the term JB4 and applying it to any kind of piggyback tune no matter the company. ESS doesn't call their tune a JB4, neither does Switzer, and neither does Dinan, so what gives? I only bring these things up because the new JB4 with the BCM can make nearly 800hp, which no other piggyback tune has accomplished yet, or at least as far as I know. In the video I really doubt the M6 is making close to 800hp.

It's a nice run for the M6 and a beautiful road, but without knowing exactly how much power the car is making from which exact kind of "chip" it's all kind of moot. Nice kill for the M6 but more accurate information would be better to explain the kill. Then again, as Dom Torreto once said, "winning is winning, doesn't matter what kind of damn tune you got." Lol!

[YungDro]

thread closed....

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by brad850csi

...On the C63 the power is instant and as soon as you hit the throttle the wheels will spin through the rest of first gear, and in the wet it is the same in second gear, instant wheel spin. With the M6 though in second it takes a second or so (from 2000rpm or similar) for the boost to come on, then it still spins the wheels even when the car is starting to rest back on the rear axle and isn't getting that shock load into it. Also note I'm running 265/35/18 PZero's which aren't as good as 295/30/20 Pilot Super Sports. My weight distribution is very similar to the M6, both are around 52% at the front

You need to select the correct setup and then the power (and torque) are instant.... Set throttle to Sport+ and transmission to S3 or D3 and select MDM. Now the throttle and transmission have the fastest response time and MDM prevents early interfering of DSC.

[YungDro]

thread closed....

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by YungDro

do you know how much weight the next gen 6er will lose?

I have no idea but if they want to follow the same thing they did with 7 series, probably 200-300 lb. I believe 3900-4000 lb M6 with 600 HP will be a track/straight line champion

[YungDro]

thread closed....

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by YungDro

I think that will be our next car lol can't wait even though its ages away probably 2019! do you think it will use hybrid electric like the la ferrari system or no hybrid ?

Nobody knows but I hope no hybrid...

[brad850csi]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

You need to select the correct setup and then the power (and torque) are instant.... Set throttle to Sport+ and transmission to S3 or D3 and select MDM. Now the throttle and transmission have the fastest response time and MDM prevents early interfering of DSC.

I did that, in MDM the whole time but it isn't as instant as the C63. That wasn't quite my point though, and it wasn't a complaint. It was more to say that the power is shocked into the drivetrain immediately which overwhelms the rear tyres similar to a clutch kick, but instead the torque builds up over a short period of time, then overwhelms the tyres.

If you think it is instant, jump into a C63, Viper, Corvette, or similar

[devondragon]

I've never driven a C63, but I've driven several Corvettes including the new stingray, and two difference MY Vipers, and I don't think the M6 is any slower to tear the tires loose. but maybe I'd have to drive them back to back.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by brad850csi

I did that, in MDM the whole time but it isn't as instant as the C63. That wasn't quite my point though, and it wasn't a complaint. It was more to say that the power is shocked into the drivetrain immediately which overwhelms the rear tyres similar to a clutch kick, but instead the torque builds up over a short period of time, then overwhelms the tyres.

If you think it is instant, jump into a C63, Viper, Corvette, or similar

If I'm not mistaken the discussion is more about comparing turbocharger engine with superchargers or naturally aspirated if your C63 is W204. Of course 576 lb-ft (780 NM) torque available at 1500 RPM (measured by Dinan http://www.dinancars.com/product/d44...ries&mid=1157/ ) when car is not moved yet means lots of wheel spinning, but after short period of time car is just a rocket...I have never driven C63 or Viper but have driven C5, C6 and had several runs against C6 and C7 both from standstill or rolling and always walked them by several cars... They jump faster (because of their weight) but immediately got smoked
I want to get your attention by posting the comparison test between RS7, M6 and CLS63 S AMG ... look at rolling (5-60 mph)

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...specs-page-5-2


C/D Test Results
RS7, M6 GC, CLS63
0–30 MPH 1.4 sec 1.4 sec 1.3 sec
0–60 MPH 3.4 sec 3.5 sec 3.2 sec
0–100 MPH 7.8 sec 7.9 sec 7.7 sec
0–130 MPH 13.1 sec 13.0 sec 13.5 sec
¼-Mile @ MPH 11.6 sec @ 123 11.7 sec @ 124 11.6 sec @ 122
Rolling Start, 5–60 MPH 4.4 sec 4.0 sec 4.1 sec

[brad850csi]

Ohh yes, once the M6 came on boost it was noticeably quicker than the C63 and I've found enough reviews to confirm they are straight line monsters!